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Maya

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by DLimited, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    How many turns is it taking? Should be around 10, at least that's what it was when I was testing it. It is a miniature academy/holy site combo, so it should be a little bit longer than other UIs of the same period. Also means that a Progress start is really strong for the Maya (bonuses from science + faster worker speed + more kuna = happy Maya).

    Also, 'that guy' = Ekmek for 3d art, me for the icon art and texture recolor (it's the chichen itza model base texture, but I recolored it to make it look different). Ekmek's work is always great, however I'm also pretty happy with the icons, especially since I'm not a terribly strong artist.
    G
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    It was 10 or 11 turns, which is an insane amount honestly. That's enough time to build two other improvements. I don't understand why it would take longer than other UIs, I mean it is imho weaker than the other UIs at least from the start.
    Sure science and faith aren't exactly weak, but I don't think they compete well with food/production/culture for a growing empire. Even gold now early on with the removal of city-state gifts is pretty nice.

    The point I'm trying to get to is even if you think science and faith can compare to food, the Kuna still isn't strong enough to warrant taking two and a half eternities to construct :D

    I will admit that while the Kuna started of REALLY slow, especially with the forest-buff being moved to medieval era (I still think that was uncalled for, but whatever) the tile turned out pretty strong once you hit astronomy and archaeology (which boringly enough are right next to each other).


    Of course, I knew who it was, maybe, and I meant no disrespect by calling him 'that guy', but names are hard and you feel kinda stuck up if you go do research in the middle of a post :D.
    The Icons are nice, looks official.
     
  3. Daya

    Daya Chieftain

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    After 2 recent Maya games i can report similar issues as Funak.

    One of the major reasons for building kunas seems to be the early founding of a religion while still pushing science. However building takes way to long and you are heavily neglecting food and production (you could have build 2 farms/mines/pastures instead of one single kuna).
    While focussing on the lenghty kuna production it also has negative synergy with the usual "viable" pantheons concerning religion founding (faith from mines/farms/plantations/pastures/quarrys) since you would have to delay the according improvements.

    Therefore in my first game with the new Maya I went for the faith per science pantheon (should have been quite nice scince mayans focus on both faith and science) and tried to mass-build kunas. However i failed at getting a religion (was 2 turns away from getting the last one) and my 4 city empire was in absolutely terrible shape (no food / production and therefore pretty bad infrastructure/population).

    In my next attempt (now even version 10-2-1) I spawned with 3 wheat-tiles near my capital and went for an immediate stonehenge due to a lucky turn-2 calender-tech from ancient ruins. I followed it up with the obvious faith-from-farms pantheon and improved wheat before building kunas. As such I had my religion up right before my first kuna was done.
    I think with a less lucky faith start (but one of the "good" pantheons) the effect of the kuna regarding founding a religion would have still been pretty minor if I would have improved other resources before commiting to kunas.

    I would suggest reducing the production needed to 50-60% of the current amount and possibly even add +1 food or production from some tech in the early classical era (like writing ore iron working).
     
  4. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Perhaps the purpose of the kuna isn't to found a religion, but to provide strong faith yields to spend on things? Are the yields strong enough to accomplish this?
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Hard to say. When it peaks around Archeology and Astronomy the tile is fine, comparable to Kasbah or Brazilwood camp, however, before that, and the nature of jungle/forest tiles makes the improvement pretty weak.

    Also I'd like to point out that +2 faith on 2 or 3 tiles per city really isn't really that much.
     
  6. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    Does it benefit fom being adjacted to a river/lake?
     
  7. Nataris

    Nataris Chieftain

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    I too feel like the Kuna could use a slight reduction in production cost. By the time you get 1 or 2 up and running, the early game benefit to them practically disappears. And that's by rushing them and pretty much neglecting growth and other early city needs.

    I love the Mayan civ in CPP and with a fix here or there think it could and should be the standard I'm which other civs are designed. I agree with whomever said the same earlier in the thread.

    They are a fun civ that actually has theme and synergy through all its abilities and benefits.

    The Kuna can use a tweak however. Imo anyway.

    Anyway, thanks to Gazebo and anyone else that contributes to this patch. It's incredible and light years superior to the vanilla game.
     
  8. Strec

    Strec Prince

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    I'll try this civ as I love exotic ones :)

    Before playing what I see :

    Pro :
    • Kuna seems to make forests interesting and may give a religion so I'll can try exotics pantheons.
    • Regular GP is interesting, hoping they are really free.
    • A composite bowman attacking twice, a real defense unit (I did love the Chinese one)
    Cons :
    • A limited UA who have no use in late game, surprising.
    • A confused gameplay for now in my mind, it seems to be a science/culture oriented civ but you need to rush first the bottom tree (Calendar, Construction and eventually Bronze working to exploit resources)

    3 others cons generic to all jungle/forests civs :
    • Forest and jungle benefit needs some relatively late techs in the bottom tree, hope kuna compensate here.
    • The AI select tiles to growth cities kill half all these civs, you must buy the needed tiles, this really need some works.
    • Starting with a warrior is bad on forests/jungles

    To see afetr playing :)
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Okay, here is the deal :D.
    The Atlatlist is really good when you get to it, heck it is probably one of the stronger UUs in the game in comparable strength to tech unlocked. But honestly the atlatl strike promotion needs to stay when the unit is upgraded.
    1. First of all, Maya have gotten their UA nerfed, and E&D compatibility(It was the mayan unique decision that spurred the nerf in the first place) have been removed from the game.
    2. Slingers and chu-ko-nu keeps their identical promotion (as does the Korean Hwacha I think).
    3. Finally, I was in this situation yesterday where I got allied to a city-state that specialized in Atlatlist, at that point I was already passed machinery so I didn't really pay it much mind. I got a few of them, was forced to pay to upgrade them to basic crossbows(was still cheaper than buying new crossbows I guess, so it wasn't that horrible). However the city-state just never stopped giving me Atlatlists, I was in modern era with volley-guns unlocked. So every unit I received from that city-state needed two upgrades to be used.
     
  10. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    I still think the best compromise in regard to unique unit upgrades would be if they all lost them on upgrade with some consolation experience (or at least if there was such an option). Otherwise it gets hard to justify what units should retain their upgrades and what shouldn't, especially since there are so many of both unique units and unique upgrades.
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I think all units should keep something while upgraded, you should be rewarded for keeping your units alive even if you're not in a war training them.
    But I also don't believe any unit should keep everything.
     
  12. Strec

    Strec Prince

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    I don't want UU replaced by TUU (Temporary unique units) for 2 reasons :
    • Diversity in late game (else all civs have the sames units)
    • Immersion in the game, UA, UB and UU give you the impression you play a unique Civilization

    Here you have a Civ that have :
    • A UA they lost later
    • A UU they lost later
    • A UI correct at start and more and more useless with time

    My conclusion : civ not interesting to play
     
  13. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    No it wouldn't as it favours after-renaissance UUs more.
     
  14. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    You're already being rewarded for keeping experienced units alive with basic promotions. If you're not training your unique units in war then what's exactly are you being rewarded for, doing nothing?

    You could as well say that in the current model pre-renaissance UUs are favored more.

    Although I agree that it doesn't feel too good when something is taken away from you in a game. That's why it feels even worse when you play a civ which UU loses all/majority of its unique promotions while many other civs retain them.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'll reiterate that they're unique units, not unique unit lines.

    G
     
  16. Strec

    Strec Prince

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    We know they are, we just discuss what they would be :D
     
  17. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    They're kind of neither one of these things at the moment. Some of them make unique unit lines, some don't.
     
  18. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Some are unique unit lines, some are upgrade sponges.


    Listen we all think disagree on what we think a unique unit should mean, but we probably all agree that all of them should work the same way.

    To me(and strigvyr from what I've gathered) keeping at least some promotions when upgraded makes the unit feel more unique. You feel like you get rewarded for keeping your slingers around until they are gatlingguns or your jaguar warriors around until they are riflemen. You feel like even though you're the aztecs and the aztecs doesn't have a jungle-bonus, your meleeunits still do (as long as you actually keep them alive)

    However it is extremely important to keep the unique unit actually feeling like a unique unit instead of just the first step to unlocking a bonus promotion to your army. This can be done in a few different ways, either by promotions that go away when upgrades, by having extra cs/cs/movespeed/vision/unique ability on the unit or by having the unit available earlier in the tech-tree.
     
  19. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    If I am playing as Maya in a high-religion game and manage not to get one, it would be really nice if I could still use the faith from the Mayan tile improvement to buy great people regardless of whether or not my cities have a religion. Is this possible? Currently, I cannot buy great people with faith in areligious or pantheon-only cities.

    I imagine this might be a point of contention for the Celts and Ethiopia as well, since they can also fail to get a religion without necessarily calling that an instant loss.
     
  20. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    all GPs require the city to have some form of religion, doesn't need to be your own, but you need to have some religion.
    Buying great people also requires industrial era, and I have no clue how you made it to industrial era without getting some religion in at least one of your cities :D
     

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