Mayan Mayhem: A Huge Deity Histographic

[Spoonwood]

I know that I have my own HoF thread for my games, but with the appeal of Chamnix's Huge Sid game last year, I feel it more appropriate to put this here. If the moderators want this moved to my thread, I will do that. I didn't take notes, so this thread comes as a sort of reconstruction via the slew of saves of this game. As I write this, I haven't finished yet, but all the wars have finished and I have no signficant problems. I only need a few more improvements here and there and to run out the clock. So...

Selected tribe: The Maya on a huge, wet, warm, 5 billion, 60% water, pangea map. I didn't concern myself with finding a good, high domination limit, as I wanted to get started and play. I wanted to create a sort of "easy" high-level histographic type game. I didn't want to deal with shipping units overseas or have to worry about pollution all too much. That doesn't mean I went ICS though.

I also wanted a fairly fast tech pace, with a means to make a good sized military at a decent clip. So, I decided to put a full 15 opponents on the map. Even though this would mean less territory settled during the ReX phase of the game, it meant a faster tech pace initially, as well as more tribes I could sell techs to. So, even though it would have meant a faster tech pace, I selected against all the scientific tribes, as I would have had to have bought techs if I gifted them around, or lost trading opportunities to the rich tribes. So, more or less I hoped that the richer the AIs were, the better I would do.

This meant that I went with a slew of seafaring and commercial tribes, without the Greeks, the Koreans, the Byzantines, and Spain since I didn't want to have to deal with conqusitadores. The rest of the tribes either I believed would either help push the tech pace or would have more cash. So, I played against the Indians, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Celts, the Dutch, the Americans, the Hittites, the Vikings, the Japanese, the French, the Carthaginians, the Aztecs, the Portuguese, the Iroquois, and the English. Japan comes as the odd one out here. They start with The Wheel. The rest either have the industrious, agricultural, commercial, or seafaring trait, all good traits with encourage the AIs to get gpt fast.

In sum, my basic strategy lay in ReXing out, then building libraries, universities, markets, and a few temples as desired to prevent flips, and sell techs from the middle ages on for gpt. I planned to use the money to use disconnect-reconnect at first, and then buy armies later, while maintaining reserach at 100%, which became 90% science towards the end for a little more happiness.

I wanted a 4 turn warrior-settler factory, so I could get contacts and have some military. Note: the spoiler tags in this thread do NOT spoil anything. They give you a picture here and there of the action. I only use them here so that they keep the margins narrow enough for easy reading.

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1259890950.jpg (4th BG found once I founded my capital) So, I went worker-granary-setters/warriors. Later on those warriors upgraded to medieval infantry and whacked some of the AIs lesser units. In a sort of test game I discovered that if I went full speed Alphabet-Writing-Philosophy that I might just get to Philosophy first. I lost the race to Philosophy here, but it didn't seem to bite too much. By the time I had ReX out, my empire looked something like this:
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1259890951.jpg

Spoiler :

I had all ancient age techs except for Currency, Construction, Monarchy, and The Republic, having 8 contacts, 28 workers, 19 warriors, and 21 cities.

2nd game Sid on pangea: abandoned

3rd game Sid on archipelago: wet, warm, 5 billion, 60%, domination limit of 4432.

4th game Sid archipelago: wet, warm, 5 billion (I think), 60%, domination limit of 4519.

 

[Tone]

Ah, I've been waiting for this thread.

Can I ask what your neighbours had been doing. Have you got one of the nearby civs with Pyramids and/or ToA?

 

[Spoonwood]

Checking my current 1385 AD save, The Pyramids got completed in 1600 BC in Tenochtitlan, by my southern neighbor the Aztecs. I believe my northern neighbor the Hittites finished the Temple of Artemis, but I don't know when. I think I know your next question, but I think I'll keep the suspense as a motivation for me to post more details later.

 

[Spoonwood]

As I said before I wanted a sort of "easy" histographic game. So, I didn't run MapFinder for a high domination limit map. My map had a domination limit of 3627 (or 3628). Tone's pangea map had a domination limit of 3940. Chamnix's archipelago map had a domination limit of 4305. Killercane's archipelago map had a domination limit of 4499. Bartleby's research indicates that Tone's map lay in the upper tier for a pangea, while mine lay somewhere in the middle. So what could I do score-wise with a mere domination limit of 3627, and going with 15 opponents instead of the more conventional 8?

My 350 BC has me with 3 turns left on Monotheism, getting Spices from the Americans, 73 gpt from the Hittites, Dyes from the Iroquois, and Silks and Gems from the Aztecs, while shipping some Wines to the Aztecs. I believe I finished off Monotheism, used it to trade for Feudalism and some gpt, and proceded to research Theology. Not much happened until about 230 AD (I don't have a save exactly then, but CRP Viewer gives me a clue... saves do proliferate after). I build libraries, universities, markets, a few temples, and towards the end, some trebuchets (maybe one or two started out as catapults), some barracks, I think 2 javelin throwers, and I started on some horsemen, which I upgraded to knights, as I had traded for Chivalry by this time. Some cities still worked on univerisities and markets.

I didn't really have enough military to do all too much in a war, but I had a relatively weak American unit (I think a warrior or a spear) at the edge of my territory and my javelin throwers nearby with some artillery support, with I believe 2 left on Physics. The city of Baltimore lay on my borders, and the rest of the American empie lay a bit to the north of a Hittite city. So, I made outrageous demands and told Lincoln to leave. He declared war, I won a battle with a javelin thrower, and I started my golden age. I had all the contacts by this point and embassies, so I signed everyone in against the Americans.

My closest save comes at 260 AD. My richest trading partner at this point came as the Celts who gave me 220 gpt for some tech I sold them. With all the deals I had going, at 100% science I still pulled in 51 gpt with 4279 gold in the bank. I had 5 turns left on Metallurgy (and it looks like I just started it, having research Physics first somehow thinking the AIs would get me Metallurgy by the time I finished Physics), needing only Metallurgy, Banking, and Magnetism to enter the industrial era. My military situation looked like this:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1259992074.jpg

As I recall and as this screenshot indicates, my initial attack against the American pikes/spears of Baltimore didn't go as well as I expected, but it didn't prove disasterous:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1259992075.jpg

 

[Spoonwood]

CrpViewer tells me that in 280 AD I captured Baltimore and had a score of 1629. I needed an RoP with the Hittities to get to the rest of the American cities, so I did that. In 340 AD I captured Detroit and in 360 AD I captured San Francisco. The Aztecs captured Seattle sometime around here. A pretty slow start to speak surely, but considering the above military situation, it seems expected. My 360 AD save makes it seem like I just learned Military Tradition that turn or a turn before, lacking only Music Theory, Economics, Theory of Gravity, and Magnetism in the medieval era. A tribe or two had Theory of Gravity and lacked Military Tradition, though I think I waited until I learned Magnetism before I traded for it. I had multiple gpt deals from several AIs. Too many to list really, but of note I had a 220 gpt from the Celts and another 400 gpt from the Celts, while sending them 25 gpt for something. I also made over 100 gpt from the Aztecs (who had the Pyramids) and from the Hittities (who had the Temple of Artemis).

I made 860 gpt at 100% science with some 10,155 in the bank. I had 48 workers, 12 warriors, 2 longbows (not sure how those got there), 9 muskets, 8 knights, 12 cavalry, 14 cannons, 3 medieval infantry, and 3 trebuchets. I had knowledge of much of the map now, since the AIs had learned, and I had traded for Navigation. My front on the Americans looked like this:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260078357.jpg

With San Francisco looking like this:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260078358.jpg

Since I had just captured it, I believe I upgraded a bunch of knights in that city on that turn, since I have a turn's grace period before a flip can happen. In 370 AD I catpured New York and Philadephia:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260078359.jpg

As I recall, the Americans lacked saltpeter (if they even had Gunpowder). Veteran cavalry vs. pikes makes for good odds and a quick war once you have units to fight. I don't have another save until 480 AD, but Crp Viewer tells me that I captured St. Louis in 390 AD, America "captured" New York in 400 AD (by "captured" I mean to say that the Americans re-gained it on a flip), in 410 AD I captured New York, Atlanta, and Washington, in 420 Boston, and in 430 Chicago and Buffalo, which I believed ended the Americans, as I started capturing French cities the next turn. A 20 turn war with basically no military at the start. Not too bad for a first war. I don't believe I increased the luxury slider, though perhaps I got a little war weariness.

I did use disconnect-reconnect a good bit, though once I finished researching a new tech, all my horse builds changed immediately to cavalry, as I would disconnect on the turn, change all my builds, then reconnect before the turn ended. So, some cities would finish off a cavalry instead of a horseman, as that seemed more efficient. I may have short-rushed with intermediate units a little, but I more remember doing that later once I had rails for a turn or two.

When the American war started in 230 AD I had a score of 1567, and by the time it ended in 430 AD I had a score of 1891.

 

[Spoonwood]

As I mentioned before the Aztecs captured Seattle. The Vikings also captured Miami, which had significance later. But first, I had the French war. I ended my GA in 440 and captured Poitiers. I believe I entered the industrial ages about here also. In 450 I captured Bayonne and Marsellies, and founded another city. In 460 I captured Grenoble and gained my first MGL. My capital started on the Military Academy. 021, a not too large city on the Aztec border had 2 turns left on a university, so it swapped to the Heroic Epic and finished it 2 turns later:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260194282.jpg

In 470 I captured Tours and founded my 25th city via settler. I believe I learned Steam Power this turn or in 480, as I have some rails built. I had 10 turns to go on Electricity with 9801 gold in the bank, making 1060 gpt in 480. I again had several deals from the AIs going on, including 299 gpt from the Aztecs for something I had just sold them (looks like Steam Power), and 745 gpt from the Celts for something I just sold them also. Those who get the Pyramids end up with faster markets, banks, and larger cities, so they generally have a better economy. The Aztecs also had some marsh and jungle, while the wars I had fought so far took place on grassland. Looking back, they also had muskets and cavalry. The Celts had Nationalism on me at that point, but I could really care less, since I could pick it up later.

In 480 I captured Lyons, Besancon, Cherbourg, and Paris. The French had lost some cities to the Vikings before I had declared on them, and I believe they didn't have iron or saltpeter or horses. Also, from what I can tell in my 480 AD save they merely had spears. In 480 my military consisted of 48 (native) workers, 10 warriors, 1 horseman (I guess not upgraded interturn as I usually do), 2 longbows, 11 muskets, 2 knights (probably elites), 42 cavalry, 37 cannons, 1 army, 5 medieval infantry, and 1 trebuchet. I did not ally the world against the French, nor did they get anyone to ally against me. In 480 the front looked something like this:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260194283.jpg

In 490 I captured Orleans, Avignon, and Rheims. In 500 I captured Dijon and settled another city. In 510 I captured Amiens and gained my second MGL, as I recall out near the city of Amiens. It would have taken a turn or two for that MGL to run to the capital or to the core, and with how much money I had in the bank and making per turn using one MGL for the Military Academy instead of an army seemed like the better choice. So, I planted 026 out near Paris and Amiens, MGL rushed the Military Academy, and started buying wormies. My capital switched from the Military Academy to Newton's or Bach's or something as a pre-build on the Pentagon (20k skills help with warmongering???). Here's a screenie from a bit later:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260194284.jpg
The French had a city named Brest at a weird spot:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260194285.jpg

So it took me until 540 to finish them off. I believe I wanted a little bit of time to solidify things before a much bigger war against the Vikings, so it didn't seem all bad.

Unfortunately I don't have a 520 or 530 AD save to show you how many units the Vikings left around Miami, but if you know the Vikings, then you know they like to build a lot of units. Other than the usual 3 or so defenders per city, it seemed they had most of their army right there. But, it consisted of swords, spears, archers, medieval infantry, maybe some berserks, and a few pikes. As I recall hereabouts I upgraded most of my warriors to help take care of many of these units I could at once. So, after 2 turns my cavalry and cannons had eliminated all of those units and I captured Miami.

But, I've gotten ahead of myself. At the end of the French war, in 540 AD, I had 55 cities, a score of 2224, and 639 terrain tiles for 11.63% of the total terrain tiles. In comparison Tone had a score of 3806, 86 cities, and 1155 terrain tiles for 19.35% of the terrain tiles. Mid-turn after assaulting the Vikings a bit I had 48 workers, 1 warrior, 1 longbow, 13 muskets, 1 knight, 63 cavalry, 39 cannons, 1 galleon, 3 armies and 14 medieval infantry.

 

[Spoonwood]

Would you guys prefer if I took out the wide pictures and just left the hyper-links so that the text becomes easier to read?

Edit: I did this on the first page, and it definitely looks easier to read to me. And it's not too much trouble to click on the hyper-links now, is it? I'd still like someone else to tell me what works better, since I write this for you guys more than myself.

 

[CKS]

I find the narrow text easier to read, but I also don't look much at the pictures, so perhaps I'm not typical.

 

[Tone]

Personally I prefer it with the pictures.

 

[bluejay]

Thinking of readers in the future: the links to the pictures may not be good forever, so I think it's better to have them in-line.

Besides that, I prefer to see them in-line.

 

[Spoonwood]

How about it with spoiler tags, so that the default view comes as readable in a narrower margin, but you can easily see where the pictures fit in the text easily also?

 

[Spoonwood]

So, the Viking war started by me shelling out the large stacks with cannons, and killing them near Miami (after I got them to declare on me). Then I took some of the old French towns which the Vikings had captured. Since I had 3 three cavalry armies when I started and as the screenshot above tells you 4438 gold in the bank with some 944 gpt per turn I preetty much bought a wormy every turn for a while, and then every other turn. Scandinavia did have iron, and it looks like they had horses also (though I don't recall seeing knights), but as I recall and as far as I can see they didn't have saltpeter. Edit: I found a source of saltpeter in their culture borders, but it looks like they never hooked it up. They also hadn't learned Gunpowder by 490, so they probably didn't even learn it by the time I started fighting them. So, in the Viking war, like the end of the American war, I had cavs vs. pikes and weaker defensive units, this time with armies AND I had city-to-city rails up.

Thus, my armies could attack one turn, get on a rail network before moving the next turn even via workers building a rail on that turn before the cavalry moved if needed, and heal in a town with barracks I know I could keep during the interturn. Since I kept towns also I could put an army in an old French city still with barracks, quell resistance, and heal simultaneously... if they had died completely already. Or I could capture a town, rail to that city, and plop armies in that city to heal for the next turn (since a city cannot flip on the interturn right after you capture it, only on the interturn after that), and get a shot at quelling some resistance. It looks like I did this with Hareid:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260247448.jpg

So how long did this Scandinavian war last? Well, in 550 I captured Miami, settled 030, and captured Chartres. In 560 I gained 2 MGLs (all MGLs, except the 2nd one used to build the Military Academy formed armies), captured Hareid, Tromso, Rouen, and settled 031. I had 59 cavalry, and 7 armies. I also had 40 native cannons (and a bunch of artillery units which I captured and upgraded to cannons), which I believe started to sit around for a while... although I kept them all around for later. I paid some 140 gpt in upkeep at this point, but I tried not to worry much here. I remember worrying about berserks jumping off a galley and attack a city I had just captured, but that didn't happen. The front looked something like this after I captured the Viking territory in 560, and perhaps this gives you a good example of workers railing behind the army:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260247449.jpg

In 570 I captured Tolouse, Stocholm, Aarhus, Bodo, Karasjok, and Copenhagen. I also learned Electricity this turn and started research on Replacable Parts, which it says it would take me 9 turns from my 570 AD save. In 580 I settled 032, captured Birka, Bergen, Farsund, Oslo, and Odense. In 590 I gained another MGL and captured Trondheim, Reykjavik, Alesund, Stavanger, Molde, Vadso, and Risor. And that did it for the Vikings. Some of the builds here surely changed, but here's a good chunk of their territory:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260247450.jpg

So, in 590 I had a score of 2449, 81 cities, 893 terrain tiles, and 16.25% of the total terrain. I had bought another army on that turn, and had finally started to gas my treasury having 180 in the bank with 925 gpt coming in. I had 51 workers, 1 longbow, 19 muskets (I probably train too many defensive units), 1 knight still looking to spawn an MGL, 57 cavalry, 40 cannons, 13 medieval and 11 armies. So, prior the Viking war I had 9 cavalry in armies and 54 free cavalry. While, post the Viking war I had 33 cavalry in armies, and 24 free cavalry. I spawned 3 more MGLs, so I must have bought 5 armies during that period. I had 2 turns left on the Pentagon in my capital.

Carthage would come next. They also had saltpeter unhooked in their territory. I know they didn't even have Gunpowder when I started on them, so it wouldn't have mattered if they did. It didn't play out as my fastest war, but perhaps my most productive in a sense. Although, in another sense, the Viking war may have also turned out as the most productive also... look at all that grassland!

 

[CKS]

I like the spoiler tag approach.

About healing armies in newly conquered towns: I thought that to heal they needed to have not moved. I know that their movement doesn't get penalized when they move along rails, but I thought it still counted as moving for the purposes of healing. Are armies different than other units this way, am I wrong about the whole thing, or are they not really healing? (I remember reading somewhere that the movement information wasn't stored in the save, so you could move a unit along rails, save, load the save, and heal that turn, so at least if I'm wrong I'm not alone in my confusion.)

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: I don't know about movement information & the save, but I would expect it to be contained in the save. Moving along rails does not count as movement for purposes of healing. However, for a unit to move, it must have its full movement remaining to heal. One of the things I do, when conditions are right (sufficient workers, an army or units sitting on a connected road and a rax on the rail line), is rail up to and under the army/units before I move them. Then move the army/units on rails to the rax town & hit the space bar. For purposes of healing, those units have used none of its movement & can heal on the IBT.

Spoonwood, good work and good luck!

 

[CKS]

I wasn't clear. I meant that what I read was that, while remaining movement was stored in the save, whether or not the unit had actually moved was not stored in the save. Since, evidently, the premise was wrong, this tells us nothing about what is stored in the save, except that since nothing depends on actual movement, it is almost certainly not kept track of.

 

[Spoonwood]

In 600 I founded 033 and 034. I gained an MGL this turn also, but CRP viewer doesn't show me capturing any Carthaginian cities. As I recall they had a slew of units in my territory near the old Viking city of Aarhaus (so I got them to declare on me) and at the border of Sabratha:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260325627.jpg

In 610 I gained another MGL, and captured Nora and Citra. The Pentagon finished around this time. I bought another army or two, and still went with 3 cavalry armies for a moment. In 620 I gained two more MGLs, settled 2 cities, and captured Lepits Minor, Hadrumetum, and Cadiz. In 630 Sabratha, Rusicade, Theveste, Oea, and Leptis Magnis. In 640 I gained another MGL and captured Hippo, Carthage, and Utica.

A few turns before I learned Replacable Parts I stopped buying armies, and used some cash to short-rush temples in 20+ shield cities and then swap back to cavalry, as I recall I started running low on veterans for 3 cavalry armies with all these MGLS. I also finished the Iron Works in a 2nd ring city about 620, which I built more for fun than anything else, though it may have payed off, since I had 2 turn cavalry in that city later:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260325629.jpg

Pre-replacable parts I had let cities grow to size 7 or train settlers/workers, and then made any unhappy or content citizens scientists in non-core cities. Post-replacable parts I did much the same with workers/settlers, but I started using civil engineers instead of scientists. Some cities got temples, others started on markets, some got to size 6 and built aqueducts.

Also, pre-replacable parts I used my treasury to buy armies and upgrade captured catapults and trebuchets to cannons. Post-replacable parts I used the cash to upgrade cannons and other units to artillery, as well as upgrade some muskets to infantry. I re-purchased a luxury about this time for some 100+ gpt from the Hittites and the Iroquois (I had more details when I first wrote this up, but I lost that, and I'd have to reload the saves to get exact details here). I had a few turns left on my 700 some gpt from the Celts and 200 some gpt from the Aztecs, but I landed a new 400+ gpt deal from the Dutch and traded for Nationalism and Industrialization. I thought about factories either here or a bit later, and decided against it because of the pollution and the upkeep cost.

At the end of the Carthiginian war in 640 I had a score of 2758 with 98 cities, and 1075 terrain tiles for 19.56% of the domination limit. I think my 620 save comes closest and I still have to pay some 76 gpt in upkeep. The next war would come against the Egyptians who DID have muskets. I don't have an exact pre-war save to give you a military count, but the previous wars had taken 5 or so turns each, so how long would this one take?

 

[ignas]

Looking good. But seeing some open territory I think you should settle more towns to fill in these gaps to get as much territory (territory=score) as you can ASAP, even if it means tight city building. 34 settlers in 600 AD looks too few. In my sid histographic game in 170 AD I have 51 settlement built with my own settler and control around 600 tiles.

 

[Spoonwood]

I thought about that ignas. The only problem came as that I would have needed to find some way to get more settlers. This would have meant buying them, which even though I may have done here a little, I felt reluctant to do all that much. Or I could have taken a core city off of military production. I didn't want to do that either. I also wanted settlers so that I could bombard cities with artilleries. Consequently, at some point around here I stopped planting new cities and started collecting settlers on a mountain in my core waiting to get used as "artillery" settlers. Additionally, I worried about getting to 512 cities as I know Calis had problems with not having the ability to found new cities in his game. But, admittedly that would NOT have become a problem here at a normal type of city spacing. Temples also end up eventually filling up some of that territory.

 

[Spoonwood]

I meant the above just as an explanation. Your ideas may have worked out better Ignas. Any details of that histographic game of yours forthcoming for us?

 

[Spoonwood]

As I said before I wanted a sort of "easy" histographic game. So, after I learned Replacable Parts I continued to do "serious" research and use the last turn or two for more cash instead of more luxuries. My 660 AD save has me with 5 turns to go on Medicine with no use of the luxury slider. Had I played more for score, I might have raised the luxury slider more after learning RP, or after Steam Power, or after learning Military Tradition, and trickled my way to Sanitation. But, wanting to clear as little pollution as possible I raced towards Ecology at this point. So, I went Medicine-Sci Method, and accordingly I had 007 with a Palace pre-build for the Theory of Evolution:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260421940.jpg

The Egyptian started in 650 AD with me capturing Abydos, Elephantine, Pi-Ramesses, Memphis, and Heliopolis. I found 3 new cities in 660, with one of them getting used to fire artilleries at Alexandria, as this post-mortem shot reveals:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260421942.jpg

I captured Alexandria, Byblos, Thebes, El-Amana, Hieraconpolis, and Giza. That did it for Egypt, so the war only took 2 turns. They didn't really have too much of an empire. My upkeep costs went to 0. Here's a shot of my army in 660 after I had finished Egypt off:

Spoiler :

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1260421944.jpg

In 660 Crp Viewer has me with a score of 2906, 112 cities, and 1211 terrain tiles for 22.03% of the domination limit.