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Mayan Mayhem: A Huge Deity Histographic

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Spoonwood, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

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    I've never done one of these high-level Huge maps, so this is quite interesting. Thanks for giving us all the detail.

    Question: For countering those huge (but not full of the most modern units) stacks, as in #238, how much of an attacking force do you need?
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    It all depends on how you want to counter it. Which option works out best will depend on the situation. I know of at least three options:

    1. Surround it with 8 medium healthy (7 or 8 hp at least, I don't think 6 hp will work) 3 defense unit armies, or as many as you need so that it can't move anywhere to attack one of your cities ever. In other words, surround it with 3 defense unit armies (with at least 3 units in each army). This, of course, assumes that you don't have any cities directly adjacent to such a stack. Once you have Replaceable Parts you can also surround it with 8 veteran infantry in fortress with an artillery proper unit also. See post 67 of this thread for an example. Then you don't need to attack it... you can just watch it "poof" away when you destroy that AI, or you can come back to it later and slowly take it out. The 1000 AD save here can also provide you with another example.

    You can also partially block off such stacks. Here with the stack in the first post of 237, I didn't attack it at all. I just put 3 armies at the 3 squares between it and Sparta so that the stack couldn't move directly adjacent to Sparta the next turn. So, the units then wouldn't go near Sparta, they went somewhere else. Happily, since I had signed an RoP with Babylon so I could attack Greek cities, they ended up attacking that stack and wearing it down a little for me.

    2. With such a stack parked next to a city you want to keep, you can attack it a little, or as much as you can, for several turns. You first attack the stack as much as you can/as much as feels appropriate. Then you gift that city to some other AI you have a military alliance against the AI has the stack. E. G. say you fight a large Persian stack, and you have a military alliance with Germany against Persia. Then after you attack that stack, you gift that city to Germany. Persia will then capture that city from Germany, or possibly raze it. If Persia captures it, you retake it next turn, and keep working on that stack, and possibly even re-gift that city to Germany again, and again as needed.

    Hopefully, you have at least one army around to defend artillery type units, which you accordingly use to help wear down the stack also. See posts 139, 147, 148, and 149 of this thread. I gifted Theveste in 250, 260, 270, and 280 there, as I couldn't finish off that stack until 290 AD, though fortunately it had divided several times.

    It does come as at least conceivable to do this with two cities also if needed. If the stack has only 1 movement units, the gifting/retaking process could conceivably go on for quite a while, as the AIs don't generally seem leave all too many units in a city, and you don't need to defend other nearby cities. If the stack does have fast units, you might need some defense for border cities.

    3. You try and funnel such units around, slowly taking them out as needed/desired, e. g. Bamspeedy's "army walls", or using veteran infantry with an artillery proper in a fortress similarly. The last screenshot of 225 almost shows what I'd consider a good funnel, but you'll also want a strong enough army on the volcano square (which I did end up placing there before the end of the turn).

    I'll add that one could also probably call this a "Funnel of Doom", but Bamspeedy's notes predate SirPleb writing about using a "Funnel of Doom", so "Army Wall of Doom" seems more appropriate. Also, Bamspeedy has, I think, an instructive point about AI offensive and defensive units. Splitting AI units up that way might enable to kill more units earlier, since offensive units generally have a lower defense number than defensive units. Thus, you might get more armies earlier that way.

    For tactic 2, you basically need enough offensive units to keep on attacking the (split) stack and take any city that the AI captures. One army will certainly help to protect your artillery type units. Others could help block off certain spots.

    For the other tactics you'll need several armies... so long as the AIs don't have tanks, bombers, or all too many frigates nearby.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    700 AD continued-I recapture Delphi, and Pharsalos. I make a fresh capture on New Mycenae. Next I capture Khorsabad:



    Apolyton:



    Then Ephesus, and Mari. I make an army box for that new stack, and disband both South Mycenae, and Mycenae, while planting a city near the spices there:



    The next important thing comes as to deal with the Greek islands:

     
  4. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

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    Spoonwood, thanks for the detailed reply in #242. It requires a whole different set of tactics than easier settings, as well has patience for a few hundred hours of play.
     
  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    700 AD continued-I decided to bombard those Greek frigates in the screenshot above and others with my cannons. I have 4113 tiles under my control at the end of this turn. Greece has an inconvenient city:



    710 AD-Knossos flips to the Greeks. I have 4096 tiles under my control at the start of this turn, with a score of 10,408. I recapture Knossos. I capture New Delphi, which quickly gets disbanded so I can attack Tegea, which I then capture. Then Gortyn, where I spawn another MGL. Then I capture Miletos. So, Greece doesn't have anymore cities on their homeland.
     
  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    710 AD-I cleared out some of the smaller Greek stacks at the end of this turn. I have 4155 tiles under my control at the end of this turn, and some 484 native workers.

    720 AD-Sparta, Ephesus, Megara, flip to the Greeks. Mari flips to the Babylonians. I start this turn with 4100 tiles under my control, and a score of 10,739. I notice that Zouchis now belongs to the Hittites! I recapture Megara, Sparta, and Ephesus which has 4 rifles. I have to attack 4 times with a cavalry army at New Troy including a 7/13 against a 3/3 rifle, and a 5/13 against a longbow, but I do manage to capture it. I capture New Eretria. I attack 4 rifles at New Thessalonica, including a 4/14 cavalry against a 2/2 conscript rifle, and capture it:



    So, I setup Babylon. I didn't know that cratering wasn't a sure thing! Carchemish has some 10+ defensive units in it. I bombarded it with cannons, and ended up losing an army in the process, but I did take (temporary) control of it. Nimrud also appears to have a lot of rifles in it when I bombard it. Fortunately, Mari only has 1 rifle. Teil Wilaya has 6 rifles in it, but I capture it.
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    720 AD-I've started placing slaves on uncleared grassland squares. I have 4207 tiles under my control at the end of this turn.

    730 AD-Babylon sends some units my way:

    1:



    2:



    3:



    4:



    I have 4217 tiles under my control at the start of this turn (with the increase over the end of last turn due to cultural expansion(s)), with a score of 11,084.
     
  8. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

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    From the looks of the mini-map, you should be close to the domination limit. (I didn't find the limit in your earlier posts.) How close are your?
     
  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    My domination limit is 4519. So, 302 tiles away at this point.
     
  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    730 AD continued-I take control of Nimrud. It ends up taking 14 armies, but I do manage to take control of Izibia also.
     
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    730 AD continued-I have 4234 tiles under my control at the end of this turn.

    740 AD The Byzantines get dragged into the war against Russia via Babylon. I gain 2 tiles. Score up to 11,432. An elite rifle ends up spawning an MGL. I take control of Shuruppak, Sippar. I lose a fully healthy army at Nippur, which I also take control of. I also take control of Larsa. I lose a 14/14 army attacking at Zamua, though I do manage to take control of it. I also take control of Hindana.
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    740 AD continued-Even though I've added some workers into some cities in the last few turns, I have 500 native workers this turn. I have 4311 tiles under my control at the end of this turn.

    750 AD-I end up picking up 4 more tiles, and have a score of 11,786. From Babylon I take control of Eulbar, Uruk, Samarra, Zariqum, and Eridu. I've started placing some settlers and cannons on Hittite lands, and buying Galleons near there as well as near the Byzantine island. I'll have 4348 tiles under my control at the end of this turn.
     
  13. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    760 AD-I have 4358 tiles at the start of this turn, with a score of 12,147. From Babylon I take control of Ellipi... I think I'll put a city on a cow!:



    I also take control of Ashur, Akkad, Nineveh, and Babylon, which clears the Babylonians off their homeland.
     
  14. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    Excellent choice for Maximizing Score! (Assuming you mean the tile next to Ellipi City Center.) ;)
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I think I have some war weariness from Babylon. Right now I have the following question: how do I get war happiness from them later on? Do I need to make peace with them (I think I do)? Then after I make peace with them, how long do I need to wait before I gift them cities so I can "trade" for a luxury and get them to declare on me?
     
  16. del62

    del62 Deity

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    For war weriness to go completely takes upto 44 turns, link
     
  17. del62

    del62 Deity

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    I guess you could use the information in the link to calculate what stage of war weariness you are at, if you are not at war with anyone else, thus working out how long it will take to clear,
     
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    The example gives you information for 100% war weariness. I doubt I've reached anything beyond level 2, if even that. I might just not have the war happiness anymore. How many turns do you need for each level?
     
  19. del62

    del62 Deity

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    I think you have to work out were you are and work it out from there the decrease is at the bottom of the article, the start of 1 wwp is 31 which is some 23 or 24 turns to zero.

    You will have to estimate which range you are in and look at best and worse case from figures at bottom.
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    It took me a bit to figure this out. Oystein's notes imply that if you want war happiness, and don't have anything in the high level 4 range, even if you have low level 4 weariness (in my current war, I think I've only reached level 0 or 1... I'm not sure how many battles I lost, and I think you gain 8 wwp for losing a 3 cavalry army), you can get war happiness in 20 turns. Say you have level 4 weariness with 121 wwp as in his example, and make peace for 20 turns. As long as you stay out of the AIs territory, by turn 20 you have less than 30 wwp. So, when they redeclare on you, you lose 30 points immediately for them declaring on you, putting your wwp into the negative giving your war happiness. So, unless you have extremely severe war weariness, you can almost surely get your war happiness after staying in peace for 20 turns (if no units inside anyone's territory).
     

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