MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]

[DaveShack]

I'll need to be skipped this time, have been sick for a week and not really quite recovered.

Nothing like a little Nyquil (TM) to mess up one's Civ strategy...

Well, there are a few other things like it...

 

[barbslinger]

Any thoughts on current strategy to get me caught up is appreciated. I've been working on the GOTM and have not opened the save in 3 turns. GOTM complete however and will look at save tonight and play Friday night.

 

[denyd]

My recollections are that we're currently building infrastructure in the cores and building up military to conquer the Mori. The Han will beat us to Hoover, so we're settling for the Agency. We're even on tech with the world and at or near the top in most other categories. TedJackson discovered that resource/lux monopolies are the key to this game. We're hoping to find oil on that little island (ex-Kuroda SP island) as those two islands are the only possible sources in our hemisphere. If we happen to have oil the next goal (while using Cav & Artillery to conquer Mori & Choso) is to get to Motorized Transport to start producing tanks (the Takeda killers)

Once the tanks start showing up, we'll send the Cav's to Northern Korea and starts razing B&G&K cities. Saving the final of Han vs Oda for the Championship of the World.

PS: I was checking out the SG threads and saw you were proposing on. I'm interested in playing a custom SG game if you'd be up to creating it for me.

 

[barbslinger]

Looking over Space's turnlog combined with Denyd's summation I see the following things:

Refining due in 5, hoping for oil on island. Get troops there ASAP if we do. Probably send some there anyway. Hopefully use refining for trades though not likely with Korea, Han having it already. When refining comes in I don't think I'll be researching Steel because Han-Korea are for sure doing just that. No trades available following in their footsteps. That leaves Radio to get a 2fer, 3fer when it comes in. We didn't go for Radio after Electronics?

Korea/Gogo MPP and peace with them 15t more. Other civs 7t more. Look at alliance situation. From what I read it looks like Mori is biting the dust. Choso has the lux so I'm thinking I'll setup and/or execute a Choso assault. [edit - 10t left on deal]. We'll need settlers to raze and replace due to their culture. I think letting Takada get a couple Mori cities with us getting the ones close to our core may be a good thing. They will be constantly trekking back and forth across us so it should be easy to get them to declare when we want it.

With that initial outline and not seeing the game yet it looks like:
1. Finish factories, build infantry, infracstruture depending on shield output.
2. Push Radio for trades later.
3. Prep Choso assault.
4. Get the Mori plums we want after 8 turns. I will block and may send troops in their lands to hinder the Takada offensive.
5. Protect oil, if found, at all cost.

 

[barbslinger]

I just finished turn one and now that Mori coal deal is over I may want to declare since Takada is heading over. We still have a 6 turn ROP in place though. Is it OK to declare if I see fit or will it be a rep hit? Not that ours is worth a hoot according to trades. It's also 5 am. I'll finish tomorrow night.
Also I have both refining and steel after 1 turn. [dance] It's still cheaper to buy on the open market than to research. We have like 3 libraries. We're not :grad: . We have oil but so does everyone else. Excerpt from log - "Takada has one on their little island. Mori has one on the only desert square 2 towns from our border. Baekje 1, Korea not hooked up and Han 2. Shimazu 1 and Choso 1"

 

[a space oddity]

Yes, it will hurt our ability to make new RoP deals. But maybe that's something we can afford, since Takeda and Mori are the only ones left on our continent.

I know buying tech is cheaper than reseaching, but it also speeds up the tech pace, and we need the current pace to go down, if we want us to win this game.

Good news on the Oil positions. It should not be too hard to cut off the sources of the Mori and Takeda.

 

[barbslinger]

Originally posted by a space oddity

I know buying tech is cheaper than reseaching, but it also speeds up the tech pace, and we need the current pace to go down, if we want us to win this game.

I don't understand. we should slow ourselves down and wait for the civs that have libraries, universities to leave us in the dust? Please explain how our research with no libraries is going to keep the other 3 down. We were 4 turns from refining which was 2140g on the slider and Korea coughed it for 1255. I got 12 gpt, steel from Gogo for electronics. Thats a savings of 1025! Giving the money to Korea should help them to hold the line against Han. Oh, BTW Gogo declared and Han vs Korea/Gogo is on. It's in my log but stealing/buying will keep us up with tech in this skinny part of the tree. We have virtually no research capability and running single science on Radio is what I'm doing and I'll trade or steal my way to tanks using excess cash to get libraries going. We can't keep up with Han, Korea and Shimazu on research at all. We are 9th, dead last in literacy, even the Baekje are smarter than us! We need to use cash cause that is what we are good at. #1 or #2 in cash/production. We are not good at research, YET! Perhaps a happy eqilibrium can be reached by buying at @4,5 and running research to get Radio in 21t. The tree right now is stuck on combustion and until we get that we can't even see the 2 or 3 fer possibility. At Hans rate, which should slow now that he is at war, he would of had tanks in around 15-20 turns while we would of been stuck trying to get past combustion. It would have taken another 4 for refining, 10-14 for steel and 10-14 for combustion. I just want to stay ahead of Takada and get to tanks before he does and then end our misery of seeing him on our planet.
BTW Space, thanks for the tip in other posts I have read about IRFANVIEW

 

[a space oddity]

Thanks for explaining just how you got the techs, I hope you didn't take my remark as critisism.

You know that we have been funding the Han and Korea's research throughout this game and at some point we'll have to stop doing so.

But what wonderful news on the war between them! At last some war in that part of the world. Just what the doctor ordered!In this case it's good to fund Korea because they will use the money to upgrade their troops. As always it's the circumstance that will determine what is a good move and what not.

 

[barbslinger]

MB4 1150-1250AD

The great leader Kuki woke up from his drunken to discover that he had slept through a war. Peace was upon the great Odan empire and Kuki decided to get his act together and inspect what has transpired while he dozed in dreams of conquest. Scientists had recently discovered Atomic theory and electronics and Kuki’s pride was enormous for his country until a 5 hour trip through his empire discovered that future scientific discovery would be near impossible. Due to the war, libraries were a hard item to locate and most were dusty.

Take a look at island that may have oil and see it isn’t ours yet. For some reason I thought it was.
No war but the Mori vs. Takada/Shimazu rift
Cash is 1802 @ -2gpt refining in 4. 4 turns is 2140g on the slider and Korea will cough it for 1280g. A gpt deal is 300gpt (doubtful) so our rep is still in the crapper. Looks like it may be back to cash for tech.
Deals in place affecting our future moves – Takada - 9t of peace, Mori - 12t of coal for 12gpt, Shimazu -, our new partners in crime, giving us 81gpt for 15 and other deals expiring before that. I’ll want to re-up the deals I believe. Choso – 8t peace and 9t deal. Korea and Gogo 15t peace. And THE HAN 3t on a crappy deal for us. Lots of lux deals going both ways.
Alliances – Gogo and Korea have an MPP.
Tech – Takada we’re up AT, Mori we’re up a load of goodies, Choso I can get a deal on electronics for lux and cash and 25gpt. Korea and Han up refining and steel. Gogo down electronics. Shimazu even. With Choso we can still declare and not hurt rep giving hard cash. Hopefully I or Ted can get them to declare. Since there are still 9t left I’ll probably leave for Ted to pull trigger on what I set up and he’ll go in knowing we’ll lose a lux and 25 or so gpt.
This is interesting. I can declare on Han in 3 turns and get Gogo in with us for tronics or refining due in 4. The MPP will kick in and Korea/ Gogo vs Han ensues. Since Han can virtually drag Takada onto us we will have to be prepared. A gpt from Takada with possible MPP for AT would take care of that. Let’s check our strengths. On power chart we’re top dogs. Measuring we are equal to Takada and Korea combined. Was there a reason we quit against Takada, looks like we’ve been equal to or stronger for a while. Choso is really not a factor on the graph. Mori and Han are about equal. Funny the mil advisor says we’re weak to Han. Must of purchased a lot of infantry. Takada average. Choso and Mori we’re strong and Shimazu average.
Military we have 2 boats that can get to Choso and 2 junks at the eastern tip of the Mori lands. We have 30 inf and 29 cavs. 44 cities to cover. 14sams, 10 Odas. 7 cats(upgrade 120g), 7 cannon(upgrade 80g), 1500 total. and 6 artys for 20. Need 30 to defend cities and 12 to go to soon to be acquired Choso lands. I see the junks will be about 7 turns to make port at either side of island. We have ROP with Mori for 7t so I could meet them half way. SOD’s are forming in Kobi and Moriyama-ku too.
Rail net is nearly complete so I can concentrate on getting factory cities to shield levels.
For Baekje raid it is about 30 tiles to them from our SE towns and about 30 tiles from our NW towns going around the map. I’m bringing the two junks to Toyotomi/Tanabe to prep for future assault.
We are #1 in GNP and dead last in literacy. More support for letting our cash do the tech work, because the Oda people aren’t too good at book learnin’ yet.
There are 22 Takada cavs and 1 rifle presumably heading for Mori with 1 Mori cav ready to die that are visible.
Toyotomi is stuck at pop 6, has plenty of tiles available and could be a boomer if nurtured. New Nagoya looks like it is cramping growth and I would like to hear opinions on abandoning.
Hey, nobody has sold our barracks off yet! Mo’ money. Well only 32g.

Pre-turn – Toyotomi to aqueduct. Suzuka plling 36spt goes to Hydoplant as does Kukiyama. Trade Korea 1255g for refining, hopefully he can upgrade units too so Han doesn’t wipe him out. We have oil directly S of Kuki Isle not connected. 4 infantry are sent there and are in town now. I moved the worker over to hook it up and then realized why. We can’t build anything with it yet and no need to advertise it. However, I we could sell it for 20t to get $$ and tech. to make the jump to tanks before Takada. Takada has one on their little island. Mori has one on the only desert square 2 towns from our border. Baekje 1, Korea not hooked up and Han 2. Shimazu 1 and Choso 1. Single sci also in Kuki Isle. We’re making 530gpt. Tech steals available every 5 turns or so. Shimazu will give a deal worth 450g over life of contract for refining. I make it. I changed a lot of the outer ring towns builds from infantry to libraries knowing that in the 5-8 turns they were sitting on will be made up by being able to pump them from the factory/hydo cities in 1-2 in a few turns. Kobe goes to Iron clad in 9.
F1 shows the people are very happy to see me again. Hit enter.

IT – Takada cleans up the scraps of Mori still in our land and head NE up our valley looking like they want the two cities that should be ours near Kukiyama. Must block them and force them further E. Mori deal for coal gets called off. Shimazu wants to embargo Mori. I don’t do the embargos. Traded world maps. Oh those crazy Gogo’s! They have gone and declared on Han. That saves the trouble. Korea will soon be in on that. I may assist with tech.
Azuchi – Fact > Hydro. Getting 42 shields.
Winegaki - Inf > Arty
Nagahama – Factory > Harbor because growth is stunted. Also Hydroplant was not an option?
Handa – Factory > Hydro
Owase – Worker > Worker
New Iida – worker > worker
Koromositu – worker > court in 40 but it is getting 2 of 9 now which is 25%. It could also get to 20-30 shields someday.
Korea declares as expected. Stay tuned.


Turn 1 – 1150AD
Worker moves. To Baekje deal Mag for 10gpt and 36g and hold your hats. I get steel from Gogo for electronics and he kicks in 12 gpt. Shimazu also showed up with steel. Takada is broke and is falling in tech. Worker decides to connect oil up. I hurry the duct in Toyotomi for 340. Decided not to break ROP unless absolutely imperative to get the two cities in our Kukiyama core. Formed a blockade of Kukiyama core to send Takada to far reach cities. Hopefully by the time he gets to it we can spring on Mori.

IT – Takada advances towards Mori but still E of our capital. Mori finally shows some spunk and brings 5 cav out of the fog heading W. Hmmm, 19 vs 5. Korea buys Shimazu into the Han conflict. Great news.
Sakai – cannon kublai > lib
Komaki – factory (now 26 shields) > inf
Toyotomi (Kuki’s new pet city) aqueduct > lib
Moriyama-too – Factory > hydro to get over 50 shields

1170AD – turn 2
Worker action mainly. No new techs from the big 3. Hurried a library and a court for 120g. Kyota swapped from inf to aqueduct. Makes a good percent of shields and is stuck at 6. Went to renegotiate our 2 for Gogo’s one lux and he wanted 860g. No more incense. Embichi swapped from court to temple. Will rush next turn. It was 72 to do it this turn, want to see the difference 4 shields makes. Is it 4g?

IT- Hey, Mori goes 3-0 against the first Takada wave and 1-0 against Shimazu. Baekje and Takada sign peace.
New Koromo – Walls > worker
Nagahama – Harbor > Lib in 3
Yokkachi – Lib > Aqueduct. It gets 9 of 13 shields and is stuck at 6. Needs irrigation now that we have electricity.
Tehjay – Lib > Aqueduct. It gets 11 of 18 and is stuck.
Shakasani – court > inf. Never thought this city would be over 50% on shields.
New Azuchi – Lib > inf
Han completes Hoover L . Switch to intell in 2. Spy time!

1180AD – turn 3
Well, even with the 3 new libraries we’re still #9 in literacy. Dang it. Worker parties. To Korea – Coal, 37gpt and 10g for incense.

IT – Mori wins 2-0 to Takada and 2-0 to Shimazu. The Shimazu boys are no longer in our lands.
To Han I give 37gpt, dyes for spices, probably not a good idea. I get 7gpt for wool from Baekje.
Nagahama – Inf > inf
Kika-ku – fact > lib in 4
Kasugai – inf > inf. Will use to block Takada. They are ready to march into Tottori this turn
New Hamma (2pop) – worker > worker
Kwanaka – cav > harbor
Moriyama-ku – Kublai > cav

1190AD – turn 5
Complete the block I had been sucking Takada in so they take extra time to get to Mori. Upgrade the Suzuka spear for 120g in case that move torques Takada off. Shimazu I deal horses for 21gpt. Baekje gets Iron for 16gpt. Hurry the Embichi temple for 40g. 8g per shield.

IT – Korea wants to trade for WM for 7g. OK Choso wants s to give him61gpt for a lux trade.
ISE - Intelligence Agency > Hospital in 3
Kukiyama (Capital) – Hydro > Uni in 4. Still 9th
Koromo – Inf > Lib in 8
Kumano – worker > court in 80! Great land if we rush court later.
Imbichi – Temple > Court
New Nagoya – Arty > arty
Jutsama – Kublai > Lib in 27.
Pollution hits on a critical Kika-Ku tile and a Kasugai mine. God I hate pollution cleaning.

1200AD – turn 6
Divert workers to clean mountain pollution. Han has combustion. We have 2700g. Time for a spy and lets see what happens. Whew! We’re in. One more turn for a careful. I forgot about the naval movement differential. That makes me happy since I took the 2 Kublais that were on the E tip of Mori S then W. Did a quick calc and we would have been 7g short for the steal attempt. I made some one time taxmen in outer 1 shield towns.

IT – Lots of world events. I embargo Mori with Takada. Not sure if that was good or not but the Mori are now in a dogpile so it probably doesn’t matter.
Shimazu/Korea MPP. Korea declares on Mori
Baekje/Shimazu ally. Baekje declare on Mori
Gogo/ Shimazu ally. Gogo declare on Mori.
Get this one. Kuroda and Han ally against Gogo. Is that all Han can come up with? Mighty Kuroda declares on Gogo. Maybe they will disappear now.

Tanabe – Inf > Lib
Nagahama – Lib > Inf in 3
Ichinomiya – worker > court in 20
Komaki – Inf > Bank in 6
Press –1 – ironclad > Cav.

1210 – turn 7
The wall of military is working Takada are going around and Mori are evacuating to get back in a defensive. Holding on steal one turn to at least have some cash. Tax men MM’ed.

IT – More movement out of our core.
Azuchi – Hydro > 56 shields > Lib in 2
Kobe – Ironclad > Inf
Morayama- ku – Inf > Market
Ogaki – Lib > Harbor
Kokomo – worker > courthouse

1220 – turn 8
Going for a steal on Han and maybe declare on Mori. Careful for 3096g. YES!

Deal it to Korea for 1290g and 92gpt. Shimazu for 70g and 90gpt
Upgrading some spears in Kukiyama core for Mori strike. The sci-sli bar now makes a dent at 30% to 34t. Holding at all cash at 43. Take a spin of diplo wheel to see Baekje and he has cash now so Medicine for 80g and 25gpt. We’re at +768gpt.

 

[barbslinger]

IT – Cancel Mori ROP. Baekje jump in with Han against Korea. Since I broke Baekje for medicine the 5gpt he offers for wine is acceptable. Shimazu declares on Baekje.
Ise – Hospital > Hydro
Suzuka – Hydro > Inf
Winegaki – Arty – Inf
Kika-ku – Lib – Walls for Takada.

1230AD – turn 9
Slide into position and wait there is a worker on the rail road I want and it leaves an arty on a mountain. I tell him to get the hell out and Mori declares! Well, it took all the artys I upgraded and almost every cav but the cities are ours. Lost 5-6 cavs, mostly retreats Taking out 9 rifles. I was on the hills but they were tough.
Have to regroup now and starve one down. Reverse happiness looks to be in effect.

IT – Takada cavs meet the Mori cavs in front of Kyoto for a shootout. Not one attack.
Have to up the deal to Shimazu who I thought was our buddy to 22gpt, wool and wine for some jumbo horns. Mighty Kuroda gets with Han again and declares on Shimazu. Those two are like Saddam and Bin Laden. I can’t find Kuroda anywhere either.
Kyoto – Duct > Cav
Yok Rev – worker > worker
Kukiyama (Kuki is pleased) Uninversity > Inf
Nagahama – Inf > Inf
Handa – Hydo > Inf
Sasebo – Harbor > Explorer, change but I couldn’t decide.
Kika-ku – walls > Cav
Hikone – Inf – Walls
New Azuchi – Arty > Cav
Moriyama-too – Hydro > Lib in 2
Choso wants to re-up the peace plan and I tell him to stick it. We’re at war with Choso. : hammer:
Then this : dance:

1240AD – turn 10
Iron clad sinks Choso frigate. I move all the artys to Kyoto to bomb the SOD of Mori cav down to size outside of Gifu. I didn’t have many cav that were healthy but one 5/5 and a 4/5. I used the 5/5 and Slingers Slaughter Boys were born. There is an empty army for Ted in Moriyama-ku. I then went round the board and pulled all the 5/5 sams and cavs. Got another leader! He is now the military academy in Azuchi. Lost one 5/5 sam though. We will be in good shape after a healing turn.

This was a long one. Gotta get to work now.
The SAVE
Score is 2217

 

[a space oddity]

The world is at war! Not one but two leaders! A blast indeed.

 

[barbslinger]

If we can get an infantry army together along with a settler and artillary I would go and land right on some lux and plant it until tanks.
EDIT: I don't mean to go on the offensive with Choso. There is no way we can knock out infantry. I think we can get a settlement in his land hold it with an army, rush a temple so as not to flip and get tanks before he does. Getting a toe hold and then letting him whine that he can't beat an army. Once we get maybe 6 infantry over to hold it we can send army to pillage. Choso war should not be offensive at all. Mori though is a different story. We can set up a blockade to screen out Takada adn only allow us to the front. Artillary and cavs should be able to pull off a number of cities keeping Takada at bay. If Takada has a change of heart I'm confindent moving in fantry on rails will keep him out of our cities. To summerize. Choso defensive and get a toe hold and Mori screen out Takada and bomb and advance.
Go get em' Ted! Forward HO!
Fingers crossed for tanks soon. Then our production will show Takada something. Secure Kuki Isle and then 7 tanks to knock out his oil and he is toast!

 

[mad-bax]

Ted: You are UP

 

[TedJackson]

Got it

But I can't play until tomorrow


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Well,

I'm up to the end of turn 6, Han & Shimazu both have Mass Production & Radio and we have nothing to trade for them (we're still 2 turns away from Radio).

I've captured 5 Mori towns and 1 autorazed, pillaged the Mori Rubber & last Saltpetre, and I'm currrently cutting off the Chosogabe capital.

It's taken me a long time to get this far and I need a break so I'll try and finish tomorrow.


Ted

 

[barbslinger]

It sounds like our research capabilities are still behind the curve. I didn't think we would be able to research ahead of the pack so I went the steal route. Hopefully when Radio comes in there will be an opportunity with Korea to get Mass Production, then it's only a few turns away from Takada redemption :tank: . That will be so sweet when we take out about 20 cities of his and will get our score back up there. I think he only has the one oil on the island SW of Kuki Isle. Beautiful on the Choso cutoff. That will learn 'em to declare on the mighty Odan empire.

 

[TedJackson]

Oh, and I've had 2 GLs so far - 1 Army and the Pentagon


Ted

 

[denyd]

Nice work Ted

What will you be loading that Army with (infantry?)? Having the Pentagon means you'll be able to add an additional unit to each army (infantry?). I would probably be a good idea to move one of the weaker armies to the oil island and then add the extra unit. We do not want to lose that oil source. Once the Mori are gone, do you plan to begin invading one of the local island opponents (do we have enough boats) or waiting for tanks to begin the Takeda conquest (will we need more artillery)?

How close to Motorized Transportation? It looks like we've got the production to pump out tanks at a pretty good rate. Seeing those 93 Infantry the Han have got, means we'll need a lot of tanks ( & artillery).

Is there anybody not involved in a war somewhere? Do we have anyways to help the Han opponents?

I'll be unavailable from 12/25/03 until 12/30/03, so I'll need to be skipped if my turn comes up during that period.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by denyd
What will you be loading that Army with (infantry?)? Having the Pentagon means you'll be able to add an additional unit to each army (infantry?).

No, I made a Cav army so that I could pillage the Mori strategic resources and the Chosogabe capital as quickly as possible.

Originally posted by denyd
I would probably be a good idea to move one of the weaker armies to the oil island and then add the extra unit. We do not want to lose that oil source. Once the Mori are gone, do you plan to begin invading one of the local island opponents (do we have enough boats) or waiting for tanks to begin the Takeda conquest (will we need more artillery)?

I have a stack on the Mori Oil island ready to attack next turn I've taken the Mori town on the island we shared with them. The Mori war is going more slowly than I would have liked as I had to divert most of our Artillery to bombarding Aki (Chosogabe 1 tile island city) which they were using as a naval base. I've destroyed all the improvements and got the pop down now so I can turn my full attention to the Mori.

Chosogabe are a problem as they have Inf but they must be our next target. I'm about halfway to isolating their capital. Once that's done then we can start shipping Inf & Artillery over.

Originally posted by denyd
How close to Motorized Transportation? It looks like we've got the production to pump out tanks at a pretty good rate. Seeing those 93 Infantry the Han have got, means we'll need a lot of tanks ( & artillery).

Well, I stopped playing when I found that our gamble on Radio had failed. Both Shimazu & Han are up Combustion & Radio and we have neither trade goods nor enough money to steal Combustion

We'll always need more Artillery

Originally posted by denyd
Is there anybody not involved in a war somewhere? Do we have anyways to help the Han opponents?

IIRC then the Gogury seem to be keeping a low profile

Short of sending a pillaging army there's not a lot we can do at the moment and, unfortunately, all our armies are occupied elsewhere

I'll look at it fresh in the morning and see if I can come up with a cunning plan


Ted

 

[barbslinger]

I know from the success Shermans war is having with armies the damage they can do. I see in the prior post you loaded the army with Cav. My question is aren't the Choso's cav attacking it? Is there some sort of a defense strength cutoff point. When I read there was a cav army doing the trick I was extremely thrilled. If the cav army does not get attacked it is great news.
It sure would be nice to get another army or two over visiting the Han and Shimazu. It would certainly tip the balance of industrial power in our favor. Once we get tanks we should be able to secure our continent in 10-15 turns. Is Takada still 2-3 techs behind? If we could soften up Han and Shimazu with infantry armies, maybe tanks won't attack them, it would pave the way to an expediant victory.