Meaning of obsolete for obelisk?

[glaucon]

This question is about plain old Civ 4, not any of the expansions.

I was just wondering what it means for Obelisk to go obsolete with Calendar. Obsolete city improvements still generate culture, but generating culture is *all* an obelisk does. So what is lost when it becomes obsolete? Does Calendar just mean you can't build them anymore?

Similarly, what about Stonehenge? Does Calendar take away the complimentary Obelisk provided from Stonehenge, so the city with Stonehenge still gets culture from the wonder, but the other cities lose their 1 culture/turn?

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

You only lose the ability to build them.

 

[Bushface]

And yes, the free obelisks disappear, taking their culture with them.

 

[plasmacannon]

An Obelisk also, lets you turn 2 citizens into priests, useful, when you want a Great Prophet for your religion, or for Golden Ages.
You would lose this added ability of Egypt's Unique Building version of the monument.

 

[Ghpstage]

An Obelisk also, lets you turn 2 citizens into priests, useful, when you want a Great Prophet for your religion, or for Golden Ages.
You would lose this added ability of Egypt's Unique Building version of the monument.

The OP is talking about vanilla where monuments were called Obelisks and UBs didn't exist.

 

[DanaLea]

Unlink the OP, I'm not running vanilla, I'm running BTS... when my monuments become obsolete, the one's I got for free with Stonehenge will disappear? Someone can confirm this? (it's good info to know if true!)

-dana

 

[Derakon]

I believe that continues to be the case.

The other gotcha with monuments is that if you're running a Charismatic leader, teching Astronomy can equate to a -1 happy in many of your cities...

 

[plasmacannon]

The OP is talking about vanilla where monuments were called Obelisks and UBs didn't exist.

Ahh. I never ran vanilla.
I bought the Gold version, and BTS around the same time.
So, always running the complete 3 parts.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Well, if he really means Obelisks (for Egypt in Warlords), that is the first thing I build in a new city (assuming I didn't build Stonehenge). I run priests in Thebes at least until I get to Libraries -- sometimes longer. The Great Prophets have a number of useful applications, particularly founding religions, but also give gold if settled in the city. That's why I normally delay Calendar quite awhile longer than most of you do.

 

[glaucon]

Thanks for the replies! Up to now, I've hated to build obelisks, since I can usually get Stonehenge even on Monarch. But perhaps it's worth building them individually since their culture is permanent, unlike with Stonehenge.

Sorry for the confusion over Obelisk vs. Monument. In vanilla civ, Obelisks are available to all civs and just provide +1 culture/turn. There is no Monument.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I quit building Stonehenge once I got to Emperor level. It just takes too much time that could have been used to build Settlers, Workers, and Military. Even at Monarch, it is a good time to begin kicking the Stonehenge habit. My default building sequence in new cities is Oblisk>Granary>Library>Courthouse>Forge. That is for a city that does not have extreme specialization. Basic infrastructure.

 

[Derakon]

I wouldn't always adhere to that build order. It depends on if the city needs access to tiles that are not in its initial 8 squares to grow quickly. Oftentimes I find it better to go Granary-Courthouse-Library and skip the obelisk altogether.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I wouldn't always adhere to that build order. It depends on if the city needs access to tiles that are not in its initial 8 squares to grow quickly. Oftentimes I find it better to go Granary-Courthouse-Library and skip the obelisk altogether.

I agree. I have been playing Emperor/Immortal level for the last year, and I find that, more often than not, I need the Obelisk to get quicker access to more resources, because they don't make it easy for us at the higher levels. But I wouldn't use it where it is not needed. In the distant cities from the capital, I also agree with building the Courthouse ahead of the Library, assuming I have COL at the time I get the city, which is often not the case.

 

[plasmacannon]

Funny, we all have different build sequences.
(sometimes build culture if Important food is in 2nd radius) >Granary >Lighthouse (if on the water) >Courthouse >Forge >Monument >Library (send missionary to get culture-pop as soon as possible).

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Funny, we all have different build sequences.
(sometimes build culture if Important food is in 2nd radius) >Granary >Lighthouse (if on the water) >Courthouse >Forge >Monument >Library (send missionary to get culture-pop as soon as possible).

Here is the logic behind my generic build sequence...

1. Build Obelisk to gain access to goodies in second radius, especially if I am getting culture pressure from other civ city bordering it.
2. Then build Granary to help increase population faster so that....
3. When Library is built next, you have enough population to immediately run scientists. I think most beginning players underestimate the importance of getting that Granary built early. I must admit that sometimes I get to the middle of a game before I notice I forgot to put a Granary somewhere -- that is usually because I noticed its population lagging.
4. Then Courthouse/Forge is next, depending on city location and whether I have COL yet.
5. Anything next depends on specialization for that city.

 

[plasmacannon]

Mine is the other way around, I build the granary to gain the pop to be able to slave build the next buildings. It's the Library that I find I haven't built in some cities.

Granary gains pop faster, Lighthouse keeps the pop growing (and tech gold coming it), Courthouse keeps the City maintenaince managable, then, Forge for the mined hill tiles I hopefully have ready.
Once one can build culture, or have Missionaries, building mouments or libraries becomes less important for their cultural benefit, because, the others are faster.
The missionary is effectively another city building the monument for it and sending it over (+1 culture for having state religion in that city).

 

[Derakon]

My logic for the courthouse coming before the library is largely that the city is unlikely to start generating significant until quite some time after it is established, while its maintenance costs will grow steadily as the city grows. Basically, I don't pay much attention to the multiplier effect of the library when built in brand-new cities, unless they have access to gold, gems, silver, abandoned towns, etc. Libraries are of course still useful for which is why they get built before the courthouse in a situation where I don't need immediate culture (in which case the monument comes in) but do need it more than I need to save a GPT or two.

Edit: IIRC the monument is 30 and the library is 90 . If your city has, say, 4 hammers after first growth (base production + a mined grassy hill, for example), then that's a difference in production time between the two of 15 turns. The monument then needs 10 turns to pop borders, while the library only needs 5, so there's a net difference in time to border pop of 10 turns, barring other sources of . It's pretty rare that I'd consider that important enough to spend time building the monument -- generally it only happens in culture wars.