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Mechanics: Commerce, Science, Research

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Padmewan, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. Padmewan

    Padmewan King

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    Several threads I have read have distinguished between COMMERCE and GOLD. I noticed in reading the Improvements guide here that there also seems to be a difference between SCIENCE and RESEARCH. Can someone explain these differences, and perhaps specifically:
    • Does a specialist's contribution get mulitplied by building bonuses?
    • How does a Shrine's income get multiplied, if at all?
    • How does trade get multiplied?
    • Can a merchant super-specialist's contribution get applied (and multiplied) to research, culture, commerce?
    Basically, if something (a specialist, a trade route, a shrine, etc) generates gold, does that gold then get multiplied as "science" or "commerce," depending on your slider, or is it "raw" or can ONLY be applied to one or the other?

    Is science different than research, or was that just used interchangably in the building guide?
     
  2. sandman_civ

    sandman_civ Warlord

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    It works exactly like this:

    Certain things such as specialists and palace gives you FREE GOLD. This is your base amount of gold that your city produces.

    When you change your research slider or rate, this affects your gold rate, or commerce. If your research rate is 90% then your gold rate is 10% (not talking about culture slider in this answer). THEN this 10% is a factor (formula) of all gold your city TILES produces plus TRADE. Add the base amount to this and subtract expenses and maintenance and you get your net gold. If you look at the F2 screen, commerce is really what your gold rate gives you, and science is the remaining gold that is given (paid) to your scientists to perform research which leads to the number of beakers to develop a new tech.

    Play around with the sliders and the F2 screen and you can even work these things out for yourself.
     
  3. petey

    petey Prince

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    I believe that the gold from shrines and specialists is not affected by your research slider. So, if a city has a shrine giving 10 gold and a merchant specialist giving 3, then that city will have 13 gold/turn with the research slider at 100%. That distinguishes it from commerce, which is allocated to gold, research or culture based on how you position the sliders. I'm not sure if trade route income is classified as gold or commerce.

    The gold coins on tiles that are worked gives commerce, which is then allocated however you want it. If a city has 10 commerce and the research bar is at 90%, then that city will give 9 beakers towards researching tech and one gold towards paying for your civ.
     
  4. Requies

    Requies Prince

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    There is a difference between COMMERCE and GOLD (and fortunately, patch 1.52 distinguishes between them). There is no difference between SCIENCE and RESEARCH.

    Yes

    The Shrine's income is multiplied by anything that affects GOLD (markets, banks, Wall Street, etc.)

    Trade gets multiplied by the harbor only. Then, it's treated like all the other commerce that is generated by the city.

    No. A Merchant only contributes GOLD. (Unless you're in the Representation civic in which case he will also generate an additional 3 research.)

    As stated, as of patch 1.52, GOLD is now a separate icon from COMMERCE and should make it easier for you to figure things out. A specialist can only generate GOLD or SCIENCE, NEVER commerce. Shrines can only generate gold. Trade routes generate commerce.

    Science is the same as research and was probably just used interchangeably.

    Req
     
  5. Gronz

    Gronz Chieftain

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    yes

    a shrine increases the income of the city and thus it gets multiplied by marketplace, grocer, bank and wallstreet bonuses

    trade increases the cities commerce, so it gets additional culture, income and/or research (culture, gold and research rates) - and will get multiplied by the corresponding bonuses from buildings as well.

    no, merchants and super merchants (like all other specialists) do not add to commerce. they directly add to the income and are affected by marketplaces, grocers, banks and wallstreets - just like a holy shrine.

    basically you get commerce from worked tiles, your palace and trade routes. this is turned into culture, income and/or research by the percentage settings. shrines and specialists then add their values to the culture, income and/or research. also add half of the city's hammers to culture, income or research if the city is currently producing culture, wealth or research. finally building multipliers are applied on the totals.
     
  6. lorn

    lorn Chieftain

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    An additional question on this thread !

    On the scores screen (with / without the chart) what is vizualized ? Gold Or Commerce ? It's written Gold (at least in the french version !), and this seems strange (would not be coherent with food and production that are already shown)
     
  7. Padmewan

    Padmewan King

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    Thanks to everyone who posted, but while several of you state that gold is DIFFERENT than commerce, I don't see a clear explanation of that difference. Is it:

    1. GOLD is the raw material from which either SCIENCE or COMMERCE is generated. (Though not ALL science or commerce comes from gold - some come from specialists, some from trade).

    or

    2. COMMERCE creates GOLD and SCIENCE? (Though as above, gold and science can come from other sources). Buildings affect GOLD or SCIENCE, not COMMERCE.


    An adjunct question: when you have your research slider at 100%, how can you ever be generating a profit (or even breaking even) if ALL of your money is going towards science? What's the leftover coming from?
     
  8. Zelda's Man

    Zelda's Man A Link to Something

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    Commerce is what you get from working the city tiles (circles on the city screen). Commerce is controlled by the 3 sliders (Research, Treasury, Culture). You can still add gold to your treasury with research on 100% because trade, specialists, and shrines are not considered commerce, afaik (they are a base rate not affected by the slider). I think "Gold" is an overused term as the resource, the treasury, and the currency.

    I hope this helps.

    Edit: Perhaps trade is commerce too and not part of the base rate. I am not sure.
     
  9. Pentium

    Pentium Digital Matter

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    #2 is correct. Coomerce is generated by working citizens and trade routes, then it's divided into gold, science and culture according to your sliders. Then specialists, shrine and other such things come into effect, and only then multiplyers are take into account.

    But to make matters worse, Gold is also a happiness resource :)

    Edit: x-post with Zelda's Man.
     
  10. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    Commerce is what comes from the tiles your city works, and your city's trade routes. It works the same way as food and hammers. If you see a little "gold" coin on the city map (the icon is what makes it confusing), that's commerce. To start, let's just ignore direct gold sources, such as specialists and holy shrines and I'll get to those later.

    So, you put your citizens to work on some tiles and pick up food, commerce and hammers. For this example, let's say your city has a total of 20 commerce.

    The next thing that happens is that your research slider settings are applied to your total commerce.

    If your research slider is at 80%, your city will be generating....
    16 Beakers (80% of 20 commerce)
    4 Gold (20% of 20 commerce)

    Next, those beakers and gold go through your markets, libraries etc. A market adds 25% (I think, if I'm wrong on the %, just go with it anyway).

    Now, let's say your city that is generating 4 gold has a market. A market will add 25% of 4 gold, which is 1 more gold. Your city's total gold output is now 5 gold.

    Now to answer your next question, and deal with direct gold sources.

    100% research means all of your commerceis going toward science. You will still get the gold that is not generated from from commerce. Direct Gold sources are holy shrines and specialists (I think that's all, but don't quote me on that). These are never affected by your slider.

    As I explained above, Markets, Banks, etc. increase your gold (not commerce) output. If you have your slider at 100% research, they will do nothing for you, unless your city has some direct gold sources.

    Let's take the Merchant specialist. A merchant adds 3 gold (might be wrong on exact value, but that doesn't change the point). The slider is irrelevant to this 3 gold. If it's at 0% or 100%, you still get 3 gold.

    A Holy Shrine. The amount of gold you get is equal to the total number of cities that also have that religion.

    So, to continue with the example above...
    Your city has 20 commerce, 1 merchant, and a buddhist holy shrine giving 9 gold from other buddhist cities. It also has a market, and your slider is at 80%.

    The raw gold your city is generating is as follows:
    Commerce x 20% = 4 gold
    Merchant = 3 gold
    Shrine = 9 gold
    ----------------
    Total = 16 gold

    Now we apply the 25% from the market, adding an additional 4 gold.

    The result is that your city is generating a total of 20 gold.
     
  11. sandman_civ

    sandman_civ Warlord

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    Padmewan you didn't read my answer about FREE GOLD :cry:

    As Oggums stated, "Direct Gold sources are holy shrines and specialists" and I have said palace as well, so that pretty much covers it. Set science to 100% and you get FREE GOLD from:
    Palace
    Shrines
    Specialists
     
  12. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    Palace gives commerce...
     
  13. FratBoy

    FratBoy Chieftain

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    Basically from what I've understood (correct me if I'm wrong):

    PER CITY:
    From tiles = commerce
    From palace = commerce
    Trade routes = commerce
    From shrine = gold
    From specialists = gold

    NATIONAL:
    From trade deals with other civs = free gold into "bank account"

    All commerce is affected by the sliders (culture/science/gold). The gold you get from the commerce is added to gold from shriens and specialists, and it is then affected by any buildings. So running at 100% science means you can still get gold from shrines, specialists and trade deals.

    So you have the following city (your capital):
    Commerce from tiles = 50
    Commerce from trade routes = 4
    From shrine = 0
    From specialists = 6
    Total commerce = 60

    Tax rate = 20%

    So you get 20% of 60, or 12 gold. You also have a bank in the city so you get +50% or a grand total of 18 gold for this city.

    What I don't realy understand is exactly where Beurocracy comes into play. Would it add +50% to your base commerce of 60? Or just that from the tiles (i.e. the base 50)?

    Firaxis sure as hell screwed up when they used the same graphics for gold and commerce, what ever happened to the good old arrows for commerce? Is ther a mod or similar that fixes this?
     
  14. LawLessOne

    LawLessOne Chieftain

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    Commerce from tiles = 50
    Commerce from trade routes = 4
    From shrine = 0
    From specialists = 6
    Total commerce = 60

    I believe what you get from specialists is Gold, not commerce. Therefore your base is 54 commerce not 60.

    The +50% commerce from Bureaucray applies to all commerce generated in the Capital City only.
     
  15. LawLessOne

    LawLessOne Chieftain

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    One point that may have you confused is that you dont have a 'Tax Rate' slider. Just Research and Culture and Culture is not available until you research the appropriate tech. When you set your Research and Culture what is left (out of 100%) is your 'Tax Rate'.
     
  16. sandman_civ

    sandman_civ Warlord

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    Set your science slider to 100% in a new game and see, you still get the 8 gold from the palace in the capital.
     
  17. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    Palace is commerce.

    In that new game, Hit F2 and look next to Gold (0%) and you'll see a big, fat zero.
     
  18. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    The only other source of gold is goody huts, which obviously aren't modified by anything. The palace gives commerce, so any early gold income you noticed was likely from huts.
     
  19. sandman_civ

    sandman_civ Warlord

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    My apologies :blush: So it's only shrines and specialists.
     
  20. kivanc

    kivanc King

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    Some questions about the "getting obsolote" matter.

    * Although in the reference guide for BTS it is stated that culture extra of monastery is cancelled after it gets obsolote, I still see the +2 points in total culture calculation. But then you know, it is multiplied with some more building&civic extras, and I didn't calculate it exactly if the total sum (let's say 35) really includes that +2 or not. So I'm not sure but after monastery gets obsolote, I think you still get +2culture but no +10% science. right?

    * after castle is obsolote, I wonder which properties remain and which are cancelled. I wonder about the same for stele and obelisk.
     

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