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Medieval and Renaissance buildings and elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Apr 9, 2021.

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  1. mrwho

    mrwho Prince

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    Grand Master's Chapel (19)
    Intelligence Agency (14) (17-3)
    Shipyard (22) (21+1)
    University (24)

    I'll often find myself building the Intelligence Agency, but not because it's good, just because the other two don't fit the game I'm playing. IA may be more general purpose than the Chapel, but the Chapel can be extremely powerful in the right circumstances whereas the Intelligence Agency is only ever okay at best.

    The Shipyard can single-handedly transform a coastal city and significantly boost production in smaller cities. It's great.
     
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  2. KingPiggyXXI

    KingPiggyXXI Chieftain

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    Grand Master's Chapel (19)
    Intelligence Agency (11) (14 - 3)
    Shipyard (22)
    University (25) (24 + 1)

    Out of all of the Government Plaza buildings, the Intelligence Agency is probably the least impactful. The extra and better Spy is useful, but I can usually do without them. It's just sort of there, and doesn't do a huge impact. I usually only build it if I'm not planning on using the Grand Master's Chapel in the game. On the other hand, the Grand Master's Chapel can shape your entire gameplan, and is something that you will usually build your strategy around. The Intelligence Agency has a wide variety of uses, but isn't massively impactful. The Grand Master's Chapel is a little more specific - you want to be warring to use it most effectively - but it's a gamechanger in those cases.

    By building Universities in your cities, you can multiply your Science fairly easily. Education is a major technology that I often try to beeline for building Universities, simply because of how big of a Science lead you can gain once you build them. Science, and Universities, are a major yield in every game, regardless of what you plan on doing. While the other buildings here are fairly situational, Universities are, well, Universal.
     
  3. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Grand Master's Chapel (19)
    Intelligence Agency (11)
    Shipyard (23) (22+1)
    University (22) (25-3)

    The University is good but it is not transformative like the Shipyard, which turns mediocre cities into amazing cities. Yeah, the Shipyard only applies to coastal cities but correctly settled coastal cities are amazing and the Harbor gives you food, production and gold. Science is important but the Campus isn't transformative in the same way the Harbor is so the Shipyard is the better of the two options.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  4. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Grand Master's Chapel (20)(19+1)
    Intelligence Agency (8)(11-3)
    Shipyard (23)
    University (22)

    Very quick vote today, so I'll just repeat this quotation from @KingPiggyXXI which I think sums up my decision perfectly:
    Also, another very quick comment: has anyone else found that the AI is building fewer and fewer commercial hubs? Siphoning funds is the go-to mission for spies, but in my recent games there seem to be no commercial hubs to steal from (or if there are, they're only giving around 200 gold per steal).
     
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  5. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Grand Master's Chapel (21) (20+1) It's just one building, and yet it gives it's primary benefit to every single city in your entire empire.
    Intelligence Agency (5) (8-3) I probably do build this more than the other T2 plaza buildings, but I do agree with what one of the previous posters said... it's usually only if I can't take advantage of the GMC.
    Shipyard (23)
    University (22)
     
  6. Francel

    Francel Madam Secretary

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    Grand Master's Chapel (18) (21-3) - I'm not seeing it. It's as much faith as a synagogue. Sure, it's good, but not the cat's meow. For army, I can levy or use gold or just build. Extra faith would go elsewhere. I can see it applicable if you're a heavy warmonger, but that's not me.
    Intelligence Agency (6) (5+1) - I'm a bonus stacker at heart. Intelligence agency + polygraph + quartermaster + cryptography and perhaps others - I don't think I ever failed a spy mission last game (nor fell victim to a spy op). Also, has it been said, you get an additional spy slot? No need to rehash the espionage debate, but that's A OK in my book.
    Shipyard (23)
    University (22)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  7. João III

    João III Warlord

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    Grand Master's Chapel (18)
    Intelligence Agency (5)
    Shipyard (20) [23-3] Been reading a lot of good arguments for this building, but personally I place greater value in buildings that can be built in all cities, not just coastal ones. Also, shipyards get worse the more you actually improve the tiles they benefit from.
    University (23) [22+1] On the other hand, more science is always good and as this building is not as conditional as a shipyard (cheaper as well), it's more consistent. Not to mention it benefits from the +2 science with Sir Isaac (Hildegard is still my favorite though)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  8. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Grand Master's Chapel (18)
    Intelligence Agency (2) (5-3) I don't know if it's bad form to downvote this again, but I agree what was said on top of the page: This building is sort of just there. It's a great building, but you can do spying almost as well without it. On the other hand, you can't faith buy units without the GMC. Even if I'm not planning a lot of warring, that can come in quite handy.
    Shipyard (20)
    University (24) (23+1) I guess I can't go through this thread without casting a vote on the University at some point.
     
  9. AriaLyric

    AriaLyric Nonbinary | Peaceful Builder Vietnam & Māori Main

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    Intelligence Agency lost a point in the last few posts, here's the corrected scores.

    Grand Master's Chapel (18)
    Intelligence Agency (3)
    Shipyard (20)
    University (24)
     
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  10. canadamufc

    canadamufc Chieftain

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    Grand Master's Chapel (15) 18-3 I missed two days and wow. This might be the most overrated building I've ever seen. When I play Domination I have a core army and just roll over the AI with them. I don't set up new armies when I can just have one. Also, good diplomacy does exist. I'm sorry, but I can easily friend every AI in the game without any trouble at all. Friendship=no war declaration which means no use for Grand Master's Chapel.

    With new additions to faith usage, it's all the more reason why the Grand Master's Chapel is meh. Rock Bands. Naturalists, Monumentality, Religion, the list goes on and on. Why would you EVER spend faith on something that could be prevented with y'know, good use of a game mechanic. Do you guys build an entire massive army to defend an invasion? Literally as Insidious said, you only need one or two ranged units to fight it off since the AI has absolutely no idea on how to beat walls.

    Also the Domination pillage faith argument is baffling. Definition of a win more mechanic. I already have a super promoted army, I do not need more units. It could help me win faster, but will it actually change the outcome of the game? Absolutely not.

    Intelligence Agency (4) (3+1) This before GMC? Really? What if I'm not aiming for faith or holy sites? What if I actually engage in good diplomacy? What if I'm not doing Domination? You can just steal gold with Siphon Funds and then just buy units with that. No need for wasted faith. Better Spies = more of anything you want. I use Spies in all my games, however never have I felt a desperate need to buy my units with faith. AI invasions aren't threatening.

    The Intelligence Agency always gets value, The GMC however, does not.

    Shipyard (20)
    University (24)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  11. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Grand Master's Chapel (15)
    Intelligence Agency (1) 4-3 Remember, you don't actually need this to use spies, while you can't faith buy units unless you build the GMC. I wasn't actually going to downvote this and am acutally surprised it collapsed so fast, but I haven't been fond of the arguments on the matter, so taking it out.

    My first mission is usually listening post and you need to be level 3 for it to improve so it rarely helps me for my first war that I can use this with. I guess you can Siphon and then send it out but with all that moving it's just too slow.

    Shipyard (20)
    University (25) 24+1 Still the most valuable building here. It's very rare I don't need science, and at the very least I build it to boost Astro so I can build Potala. Even in games where I build campuses very late, it's a huge boon.

    Well, you have to understand that by the time you build the spy, there are less turns. In reality it may only be 100-150 turns and the last dozen or two turns usually don't matter much for victory.


    You can capture them, as the AI builds many of them.

    And honestly, I don't get the allergic reaction to HS's. They're not bad choices even without a religion, not to mention the AI is obsessed with sharing one with you anyways. It's very easy to find a few spots for good Holy Sites, and if you've already have a campus and trade district in place, why not put it there? The extra 10- faith a turn is often better than many other choices, espeically since you get a discount on districts you don't have many of. Even with bad adjacency, a city could run Holy Site projects and be your empire's sole source of faith. The game is designed for you to build these auxiliary districts to balance out your empire.

    You certainly don't have, to, and yea, they're not a good choice. But IMO just writing them off isn't fair because it is very easy to make use of it, and doesn't cost very much.

    Then you'd have allies, of which you can't spy on.

    Sure, so you can take a few cities as a counterattack. Troops will easily pay for themselves if you take cities. Pillage a few tiles if you don't want cities. It's extremely high value. Doesn't matter what kind of victory it is. Building units strictly for defense sounds like a waste to me.

    Troops also unlock eurekas and era score, and sometimes you want to clear out Barbarians in undeveloped areas ripe for settling. If it's been a while, the barbs can be pretty strong.

    There are plenty of games where I've made max alliances and crushed everyone that's not my friend so there's nothing to siphon, or it'd be too much effort. In those case spies do nothing for me and even the Foreign Ministry is better. And yea, I consider myself pretty good at Diplomacy. They're all tools at work. In more aggressive games, I will use spies, but I disagree it's always useful.

    I want to say that "what if you don't...." is technically true, but it can apply to anything. I can win by not building any campuses or spies, or holy sites, but sometimes integrating them all in makes for a more balanced game sometimes. If you choose to exclude them, fine, but some of us won't.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  12. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Grand Master's Chapel (15)
    Intelligence Agency (Eliminated)
    Shipyard (20)
    University (26)

    None of the T2 Govt Plaza buildings are that great so surprised 2 of them made it to the last 4, but hey these aren't personal rankings!

    Time for the IA to go, personally I find this to be the one I build the least - GMC at least funds itself with the 5 faith a turn whilst every bit of diplo favour you can get helps with the Diplo Victory so Foreign Ministry comes into its own then.

    The Shipyard is a very powerful building but I can go 3 games without building one depending on the map/leader whereas I will virtually always build at least a couple of Universities (25+1=26) regardless of victory condition.
     
  13. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

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    Grand Master's Chapel (15)
    Shipyard (17)(20-3)
    University (27)(26+1)

    What the previous said. While powerful, the shipyard is situational. Universities are not—you will need them for every win condition (with the exception of fast religious victories, but then again, you don't need shipyards for those either).
     
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  14. mrwho

    mrwho Prince

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    Grand Master's Chapel (15)
    Shipyard (18)(17+1)
    University (24)(27-3)


    The Shipyard may be situational, but has far more transformational power than the University, which is always pretty good but never great. Shipyards can transform cities. Universities give you some extra science. In a city where both are available to build, I'd prioritise the Shipyard in most cases. I guess it comes down to how you weight power vs frequency of use; I rate very powerful but situational higher than pretty good and general purpose, personally.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  15. Marquese Weltschmerz

    Marquese Weltschmerz Chieftain

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    Grand Master's Chapel (12)(15-3)
    Shipyard (19)(18+1)

    University (24)

    Once upon a time, I used not to build shipyards. Then I noticed that they also gave production bonus equal to their adjacency (which is almost always granted to be at least 2, but if you found cities accurately it becomes easily +3 or 4 (unless you're playing as Gauls).
    On the other hand, it is not possible to vote down the University: in a normal game you will have a Campus in I think half the cities, so the only downvote I can cast is for the GMC, which I rarely build because of an error in the Italian translation: it states that it allows you to purchase tiles with faith instead of units
     
  16. Leucarum

    Leucarum Emperor

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    Grand Master's Chapel (9)
    Shipyard (19)
    University (25)

    Well, I do think we have the right top 3... Top 4 to be honest. You'd always be building either the IA or the GMC so it makes sense they should finish strong. I'm torn about whether to downvote the GMC or Shipyard. In the end I went Chapel (12-3) as the shipyard is almost always going to get used in a few cities while the chapel does depend on what type of game you're playing. University (24+1) has to get my upvote though. Go science.
     
  17. Mount Suribachi

    Mount Suribachi Prince

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    Grand Master's Chapel (6)
    Shipyard (19)
    University (26)

    Grand Master's Chapel 6 (9-3):
    Not going to rehash this argument again, other than its clearly the weakest, most situational of the three left.
    University 26 (25+1): Science is universal. You're always going to need it (except RV which you've probably won by this point). University is consistently good whereas shipyard is situationally great.

    Now that would make for an interesting GMC!
     
  18. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

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    Grand Master's Chapel (3) (6-3)
    Shipyard (19)
    University (27) (26+1)

    University (27) - Will build multiple in every game. Other than monuments and maybe granaries, probably my most ubiquitous building.

    Grand Master's Chapel (3) - I've been beating the drum on this one but this is a good place for it to bow out. Less universal and less important than the other two.
     
  19. kryat

    kryat King

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    Grand Master's Chapel (eliminated)
    Shipyard (20) (19+1)

    University (27)

    Shipyard - One more upvote. It's very strong, and usually prioritized over what else is on the list, because it helps you get everything on the list faster.

    Grand Master's Chapel - I mentioned before that faith purchases feel more expensive than gold. While it's true that things cost less with faith than with gold, I usually have 2x - 5x more gold per turn than faith per turn by midgame. Part of that is a lack of holy sites in most cities, (since after the first few cities, my usual specialty district priority in a normal city is: Harbor/Campus -> Commercial Hub/IZ -> Entertainment/Encampment/Theater -> Holy Site), and part of that is that more tiles give gold than give faith, but the main reason is trade routes and trade deals give far more gold than faith. I can easily have a game where I make over 1,500 GPT, but I really have to stretch to hit even 500 FPT, unless I'm playing as someone who specializes in faith. So, redundantly, I say the GMC is redundant.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  20. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    Shipyard (21)
    University (24)

    University (27-3=24):
    Is a very strong building, because science is strong, but lacks any other kind of punch. It is the Korea of this building list. Of course, you will have one everywere, as you want as most science as possible, so you will try to place a campus everywere and build all the campus buildings. But that's all. In the other hand,

    Shipyard (20+1=21): Will be one of your priorities in any coastal town. While it is terrain restricted, you'll look to get it wherever you can, and it will bost your cities so they can build... ¿an university maybe? or whatever else.
     
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