Medieval and Renaissance buildings elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Apr 9, 2021.

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  1. kryat

    kryat King

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    This thread is moderator approved.

    Continuing the series of evaluating buildings, we'll be looking at Medieval and Renaissance buildings this time.

    In this post, you will find more information on the elimination thread, so if you are looking for the building list, do proceed to the next post.

    While you may vote for whatever you wish on whatever grounds you wish, I would recommend the following considerations:
    • How quickly do you prioritize this building?
    • How useful is the building in your long-term strategy?
    • How useful is the building in your short-term survival?
    • How many cities do you build it in?
    • How easily is this building unlocked?
    • What’s the cost to build versus the benefit?
    The rules are as usual:
    • Each post should contain one downvote (-3 points) and one upvote (+1 point).
    • Votes must have a corresponding explanation.
    • You may vote once every 24 hours.
    • When a building reaches 0 or fewer points it is eliminated and should be removed by the next poster.
    • No particular victory type or civilization is assumed, or difficulty level.
    • Game and map settings are left at default, NFP games modes are disabled.
    • Continous up/downvoting of a given policy by the same user should be avoided.
    • Please do not add non-voting posts to the thread as they are subject to removal.


    NFP Elimination Threads

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/renaissance-era-policy-card-elimination-thread.668666/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/medieval-era-policy-elimination-thread.668481/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ancient-and-classical-buildings-elimination-thread.668208
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/medieval-era-policy-elimination-thread.668481/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/classical-era-policy-elimination-thread.668068
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ancient-era-policy-elimination-thread.667807/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...mination-victories-elimination-thread.664641/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/sneak-peek-at-composite-victory-type-rankings-so-far.661225/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cultural-victory-elimination-thread-no-ss.661203/page-16
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/city-states-elimination-thread.660516/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/religious-victory-elimination-thread.659828/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/domination-victory-elimination-thread.658838/

    Previous Gathering Storm Elimination Threads
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...he-hands-of-the-ai-elimination-thread.656981/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/music-theme-elimination-thread.651945/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/diplomatic-victory-elimination-thread.650579/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-unique-ability-elimination-thread.648643/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gathering-storm-leader-ability-elimination-thread.649233/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unique-unit-elimination-thread.647892/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/science-victory-gs-elimination-thread.654506/

    Before GS Elimination Threads
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civilization-ability-elimination-thread.639612/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/leader-ability-elimination-thread.637762/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unique-unit-elimination-thread.631713/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unique-infrastructure-elimination-thread.638688/
     
  2. kryat

    kryat King

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    Reference
    Armory (195p):
    +3 production, +1 specialist slot, +1GGpt/t, +25% combat xp of military land units trained in the city, allows training Military Engineers, increase strategic resource stockpile by 10.
    Archaeological Museum (290p): +2 culture, + 1 specialist slot, +1GWpt/t, +2GArtpt/t, +3 Artifact slots, allows training and maintaining 1 archaeologist
    Art Museum (290p): +2 culture, + 1 specialist slot, +1GWpt/t, +2GArtpt/t, +3 Great Works of Art slots,
    Bank (290p): +5 Gold, +1 specialist slot, +1GMpt/t
    Chancery (290p): +3 influence/turn, when this civilization captures or kills an enemy spy, receive 50 science for every level of the enemy spy. Bonus yields based on envoy count in city states.
    Foreign Ministry (290p): Levying city states costs half gold, suzerained city states units gain +4CS, +1 governor title, +3 diplo favor
    Grand Master's Chapel (290p): Grants buying land military units with faith, pillaging improvements and districts award bonus faith, +1 governor title, +5 faith
    Intelligence Agency (290p): +1 spy and spy capacity, all spy operations have higher chance of success, +1 governor title
    Medieval Walls (220p): +100 outer defense strength, +3CS, +1 housing w/ monarchy, +2 tourism with conservation
    Shipyard (290p): +25% combat xp for naval units trained in city, +production = harbor adjacency, +1 production to all unimporoved coast and lake tiles in city, +1 specialist slot, +1GAdmiralpt/t
    Renaissance Walls (300p): +100 outer defense strength, +3CS, +1 housing w/ monarchy, +3 tourism with conservation
    Workshop (195p): +3 production, +1 specialist slot, +1GEpt/t
    University (250p): +4 science, +1 housing, +1 specialist slot, +1GSpt/t

    Starting Scores
    Armory (20)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (20)
    Bank (20)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (20)
    Grand Master's Chapel (20)
    Intelligence Agency (20)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (20)
    Renaissance Walls (20)
    Workshop (20)
    University (20)

    Leaderboard

    Top Tier Buildings - build them when you can

    1. :trophy: Shipyard (winner) - One of the best sources of production in the game. Rewarding good city planning, this building has a very high ceiling for yields that can clear the path for building more of whatever you want.
    2. :trophy2nd: University (#132) - A very reliable source of science to push you through the tech tree.
    3. :trophy3rd: Grand Master's Chapel (#119) - The strongest of the T2 government buildings, it's one of the best insurance policies in the game, letting you pray an army out of the ether.


    Essential buildings - good in any game

    4. Intelligence Agency (#112) - A good alternative to the ever-popular Grand Master's Chapel, and often preferred above the Foreign Ministry. It gives you something useful that you can use the rest of the game.
    5. Archaeological museum (#95) - The more useful culture building. It's good at what it does - providing reliable culture and tourism with an engaging mini-game.


    Generic buildings that you will want a few of, but don't need in every city

    6. Workshop (#88) - While largely a stepping stone to its more useful older sibling, the factory, it can be a decent source of valuable great engineer points.
    7. Armory (#83) - While military engineers are useful, only one armory is really needed. Great engineer points are preferable to great general points in most situations.
    8. Art Museum (#78) - While useful for culture wins, it is clearly outshined by its twin, the archaeological museum, which offers better theming options.


    Buildings you probably don't need, but they might add something to your game

    9. Chancery (#60) - Typically low priority in most people's build orders, and no one seems to have a strong argument for why it should be sooner.
    10. Medieval Walls (#55) - Ancient walls are good enough usually, but cheaper than renaissance walls.


    Buildings you don't really need.
    11. Bank (#41) - Hard to get a good return on investment.
    12. Foreign Ministry (#39) - The weakest of the T2 government buildings. It’s much more reliable to build your own armies, and the other T2 buildings are just better.
    13. Renaissance Walls (#37) - Walls aren’t really needed later in the game. The best reason to build these is tourism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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  3. kryat

    kryat King

    Joined:
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    Gender:
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    Armory (21) (20+1)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (20)
    Bank (20)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (20)
    Grand Master's Chapel (20)
    Intelligence Agency (20)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (20)
    Renaissance Walls (17) (20-3)
    Workshop (20)
    University (20)

    Armory - I have a soft spot for military engineers. They just make everything run so smoothly. These are a must build for me when they become available. And the armory is pretty cheap.

    Renaissance Walls - I almost never build these. Ancient walls are usually enough.
     
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  4. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17) (20-3) It's kind of amazing how unnecessary the Theater Square has become for a culture victory and this is probably the least useful building in the district.
    Bank (20)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (20)
    Grand Master's Chapel (20)
    Intelligence Agency (20)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (20)
    Renaissance Walls (17)
    Workshop (21) (20+1) I'm a sucker for Industrial Zones so I'll give this an upvote before goes away. Extra production is always nice, gives you GE points and leads to Factories.
    University (20)
     
  5. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    989
    Gender:
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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (17) (20-3) Oh boy, 5 gold and nothing else. Yay?
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (20)
    Grand Master's Chapel (20)
    Intelligence Agency (20)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21) (20+1) This is why I like harbors so much and why the 100% harbor adjacency card stuck around a bit in the last elimination thread. You can get some really nice production bonuses here, especially considering how easy harbor adjacencies are to get.
    Renaissance Walls (17)
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)
     
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  6. Mount Suribachi

    Mount Suribachi Prince

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    Location:
    England
    Lots of good choices in this selection, only a couple of weak ones.

    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (17)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (17)
    Grand Master's Chapel (20)
    Intelligence Agency (20)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (18)
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)

    Foreign Ministry 17 (20-3): The Tier 2 government plaza buildings are all weaker than the T1/T3 levels, and this is IMO the worst. Levying city state units is great for Hungary, and useful for era score when you're a couple of points away from a GA, but its not a strategy to build around. Spies are always useful, and so is the ability to faith buy military units. This is the only building on this list that I have never built.

    Renaissance Walls 18 (17+1): I will put a single, solitary point into walls to remind people that whilst you'll never build them for defence, you will build them in every city if you're going for a culture victory because they provide tourism.
     
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  7. Leucarum

    Leucarum Emperor

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    Gender:
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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (14)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (17)
    Grand Master's Chapel (21)
    Intelligence Agency (20)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (18)
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)

    Going to agree that +5 gold is not a lot. The Bank (17-3) is a good candidate for a first elimination IMO. Meanwhile I love being able to always faith buy an army. Faith has become such an useful resource and there are plenty of options to acquire it even if mot pursuing a religious strategy. Grand Master's Chapel (20+1) is a building I rarely deviate from in my tier 2 slot
     
  8. Francel

    Francel Madam Secretary

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    Location:
    Luna
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (14)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14) (17-3) - As much as I want to like this, I am never able to pull the trigger and build it. I don't think the diplo favor is much use except selling. I find World Congress is this strange dichotomy where I either don't need much favor at all to get what I want (the ai never votes for the culture bomb one), or no matter how much favor I have, it isn't enough (the luxury one). I don't like leveraging city-state units at all. If I am at war, they usually do a decent enough job on their own. Maybe this one is a no brainer for Hungary, but that's not me. It would be better if it gave 2 free envoys every era or something instead.
    Grand Master's Chapel (21)
    Intelligence Agency (21) (20+1) - This is the one I always end up building. The extra spy and spy capacity are nice. I think the higher chance of success is highly significant at the commencement of espionage, because spies either get the promotions and snowball, or they struggle to get off the ground until much later on, when I have cryptology or other means of boosting them.
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (18)
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)
     
  9. João III

    João III Warlord

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    Location:
    Império Português
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (11) [14-3] +5 gold is a drop in the bucket by this point in the game.
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (21)
    Intelligence Agency (21)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (19) [18+1] I'll show some love to Renaissance Walls on account of their versatility. With monarchy, you gain +3 housing and +2 diplomatic favor, then slot in Military Research and you get +2 science as well; all that in addition to base stats including +6 tourism.
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)
     
  10. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Location:
    Rouen, Normandy
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (8) (11-8)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (21)
    Intelligence Agency (22) (21+1)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (19)
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)

    Intelligence Agency: I literally go for no other Tier 2 Government Plaza Building. The extra Spy and free Promotio are just so useful.

    Bank: I'll contribute to the echo chamber and say we should kick out the Bank first. +5 Gold? Not very helpful, even if you have 5 or 6 of these.
     
  11. SemiLazyGamer

    SemiLazyGamer Chieftain

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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (20+1= 21): will get a bit of love to the Archeological Museum. It's not great when you unlock it, but gets eventually great when you can actually get Archeologists ready to go.
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (8-3=5) I almost never build banks except for the boosts or when I'm Mali and have enough faith to do so.
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (21)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (19)
    Workshop (21)
    University (20)
     
  12. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    201
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (21)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (5)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (21)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (16) (19-3)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21) (20+1)

    Renaissance Walls (16) (19-3) I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve built this. Two were with Valletta; one was as Tamar, so technically a different building. Totally unnecessary for defence, minuscule amounts of tourism, and, overall, very expensive for what they do. A complete distraction.

    University (21) (20+1) Flipping expensive to hard-build, but worth it eventually. Bucket loads of science, extra great scientist points precisely when you really want to start accumulating them (eg. for Newton, Einstein), and +1 housing to boot.
     
  13. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    (Medieval Walls already dropped out)

    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (21)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (5)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)(21+1)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (20)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (13)(16-3)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)

    Renaissance Walls: Banks are pretty bad, Chancery isn't much better than Consulate. But Renaissance walls are just a no no—especially since if you're doing a tourism victory, you want to rush Steel for the Eiffel Tower, but Steel is when Renaissance walls go obsolete.

    GMC: invaluable for mid-to-late game conquest. The ability to instantly buy a Tank army with all your stored faith, which isn't going anywhere, is great.
     
  14. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

    Joined:
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    Gender:
    Male
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (22) (21+1)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (5)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (17) (20-3)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (13)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)

    Archaeological Museum (22) - Not going to be the winner (nor should it be), but I like the archaeological mini-game. My culture games tend to move fast enough that I don't get that deep into the Great Artists (even using Russia), so I will typically build a lot of Archaeological Museums to try and theme them up.

    Medieval Walls (17) - Added back to the list just in time for a downvote. I either build few or no walls at all (and the few are ancient walls), or less commonly build all three in each city (if playing as Georgia, using Valleta, or other going cultural with a lot of free production to use, as sometimes happens w/ BM Teddy). I don't think I have ever intentionally built medieval walls and then stopped there, other than using the GE who builds them.
     
  15. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (22)
    Art Museum (17)
    Bank (6)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (14)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (13)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)


    Medieval Walls (17-3=14): in agreement with @Vargas1 post above: it's either just ancient walls or all the way up to renaissance. Being pitted against Renaissance Walls in this pool, i think Medieval Walls should not be above.

    Bank (5+1=6): Not that I think it really deserves an upvote, but I'll comment and push it up a bit to compensate the echo chamber. While it certainly will go out soon, I think its potential to power-up via city state-envoys shoud be considered before eliminating it first. Something that neither of the walls can provide. Nor the Foreign Ministry (in a "direct" sense).
     
  16. Equilin

    Equilin King

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    Gender:
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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (22)
    Art Museum (14) (17-3) Maybe if I'm Russia going for culture victory, maybe i'll build it. Otherwise Arch museum is just much easier to use.
    Bank (7) (6+1) I usually have some of these in my CH for Merchant points. Actually useful. Gold yield can get CS boosts to make it not too bad.
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (14)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (13)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)
     
  17. AriaLyric

    AriaLyric Nonbinary | Peaceful Builder

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2020
    Messages:
    485
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (23)
    Art Museum (11)

    Bank (7)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (14)
    Shipyard (21)
    Renaissance Walls (13)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)

    Art Museum (14-3=11) I only really build these when I end up recruiting a Great Artist anyways and need a place to shove their works. Otherwise, I never really see any reason to not go for an Archaeological Museum instead.
    Archaeological Museum (22+1=23) The cooler Art Musuem. WAY easier to reliably theme than the Art Musuem. If I'm building a museum, it's probably for culture rather than tourism, and the ability to reliably get 5 Archeological Musuems to at least 2/3 theming makes them better for that than Art Museums. Plus, archaeologists are useful for removing antiquity sites once they appear, and the civic for revealing them is one you must go thru to get to the tier 3 governments, so in any Culture, Science, or Diplomatic game I play I'll end up revealing antiquity sites before too long and some of them will invariably spawn in annoying locations.
     
  18. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,533
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (23)
    Art Museum (11)
    Bank (7-3=4)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (14)
    Shipyard (21+1=22)
    Renaissance Walls (13)
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)

    Bank (7-3=4) The yield of it, even with Merchant CS bonus, cannot really compensate the cost. Gilded Vault is what a better Bank shall be.
    Shipyard (21+1=22) The production it can provide is the saving grace of costal cities. (Although the "bonus production on unimproved costal tiles" can mess up with Fishing Boats.)
     
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  19. Vizurok

    Vizurok Magyar Soldier

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Hungary, Sátoraljaújhely (spell it)
    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (23)
    Art Museum (11)
    Bank (4)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (14)
    Shipyard (23) (22+1) Although it doesn't directly contribute to any victory conditions, it comes with an extraordinary number of yields, including the always very welcome production.
    Renaissance Walls (10) (13-3) A 300p building that has no function, provides absolutely zero yield on its own and must be hard built. Never built a single one in 1000 hours.
    Workshop (21)
    University (21)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  20. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Gender:
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    Armory (21)
    Archaeological Museum (23)
    Art Museum (11)
    Bank (4)
    Chancery (20)
    Foreign Ministry (14)
    Grand Master's Chapel (22)
    Intelligence Agency (22)
    Medieval Walls (14)
    Shipyard (23)
    Renaissance Walls (10)
    Workshop (18) 21-3 Costs 195 production (the most expensive t1 building) to return +3 production (+4 with Industrial CS). So it breaks even in 65/49 turns, meaning most of them aren't even going to pay for themselves. Nice meme. If I don't need a factory in the city, it doesn't even get built. Just run projects if you want GEs.
    University (22) 21+1Science is hard to come by, so unless I don't have campuses at all, this is a valuable building.
     
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