I always have trouble fighting off other civs when they discover feudalism--I'll be doing fine defending myself throughout the ancient world, but once a civ comes at me with knights and medieval infantry, I always seem to get crushed, even if I have pikemen in my cities. Is there a defensive disadvantage in the early Middle Ages in civ (in the same way that there is an offensive disadvantage in early industrial)? And if so, is there a way to defend oneself against knights and medieval infantry until I can discover gunpowder and fill my cities with musketmen?
Medieval Army Troubles
- Thread starter Houarno
- Start date
Black Waltz
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Messages
- 569
Offence is the best defence I find. If you have a large force of knights of your own then you can use them to counter-attack against the invading forces.
budweiser
King of the Beers
How about trying some verteran forces on a hill inside a fort. Add a few catapluts for good measure.
stratego
Trying to be good.
I would have to agree with Houarno and Black Waltz, even though knights and longbowman are great attackers, they are very weak at defending. So you can bring your own workers, longbowmen, knights and even ancient units to the boarder. Fortify some worker around where they might attack. The enemy would capture the workers (wasting their attack), so you can attack them. Then recapture the workers with ancient units and repeat.
thedirk
Master of Stealth
The ability to counter-attack is very important. Units in the field are easier to kill than units in a city, where there are defense bonuses. If you expect a Civ might attack you, move your own knights into the border area two tiles in and that you have roads in the area. When the enemy advances into your territory attack them with your knights, and then withdraw into your cities to recuperate if needed (But make sure you have enough left near the border to counter-attack again next turn). Also sign a MPP if you can so any Civ that attacks you will have to split it's war effort making it easier on you.
Maybe it would be best to describe what happens to me in the Middle Ages: even if I'm lucky enough to have cities in bottlenecks, even if I defend those cities as well as I can (with pikemen) and fill it with offensive units (knights, etc) that I send out either to attack their cities or couter attack their units, the other civ always has too huge of a force for me to stop: wave after wave of medieval infantry (usually) that eventually tires out my defenders and, after killing the remaining offensive units that were resting up, break through.
Once through the bottleneck city (or line of forts), things are pretty bad for me since I loaded my best defensive troops up front to hold the bottleneck.
So, feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong or to give me suggestions on what to do better (these problems are, by the way, tied to the fact that I can't support as many troups as my agressive neighbors because I simply don't make enough gold--so feel free to give me suggestions about this as well)...
Once through the bottleneck city (or line of forts), things are pretty bad for me since I loaded my best defensive troops up front to hold the bottleneck.
So, feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong or to give me suggestions on what to do better (these problems are, by the way, tied to the fact that I can't support as many troups as my agressive neighbors because I simply don't make enough gold--so feel free to give me suggestions about this as well)...
Black Waltz
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Messages
- 569
Do you have a save game of this happening?
stratego
Trying to be good.
Maybe you can try rushing the units. That way you can get several defenders per turn, for a couple of turns, and that should kill off a lot of enemies. You can turn tech and happiness off for those turns.
SolarFlare
Privateer at large
Houarno, the Middle Ages are made to be a very unstable time in Civ, just like they were in real history. Political boundaries were never safe. Those who say offense is the best defense are right during this era. If you expect to be attacked, don't sit around and take the hit during this era, which may work during other eras. Instead, build your own forces which can counter-attack in the AI's homeland OR intercept incoming AI forces, depending on which you prefer.
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
Sounds like you just don't have enough units.
Where do you usually rank on the histograph at this point in the game? What does your military advisor say? "Compared to them" are you weak? Are you producing your units in cities with Barracks? If not, your Regulars won't do well against the AI's Veteran units. How many cities do you have compared to the AI's? If you're not expanding enough earlier, it's hard to compete in the Middle Ages.
Where do you usually rank on the histograph at this point in the game? What does your military advisor say? "Compared to them" are you weak? Are you producing your units in cities with Barracks? If not, your Regulars won't do well against the AI's Veteran units. How many cities do you have compared to the AI's? If you're not expanding enough earlier, it's hard to compete in the Middle Ages.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Nitpick: Knights are not weak defenders. They have the defense value of Pikemen, and retreat ability on top on that.
Still, they're very expensive (compared to other early medieval units), so one should still take every chance to attack them in the open. But if your outnumbered, you shouldn't attack them when they're hiding on Hills or Mountains (unless they're redlined), if it can be avoided.
You could try fielding more Catapults. They're good at hurting Medievals footslogging towards your cities, and against Knights they may just give your Pikemen the necessary edge by knocking off an extra hitpoint when the Knight charges.
But the real problem seems to be that you're not emerging from the ancient times with enough productive capacity. You might want to check out the War Academy for articles of building up your infrastructure. (Do you use the Despotic Whip (tm) alot? If yes, you may want to try to decrease it, since it hurts your long-term economic and industrial growth.)
And a final point: Don't expect the Musketmen to save you. Sure, they defend 33% better than Pikemen, but they cost a frikken 100% more. During wartime, having two Pikemen is almost always preferable to having one Musketman.
Still, they're very expensive (compared to other early medieval units), so one should still take every chance to attack them in the open. But if your outnumbered, you shouldn't attack them when they're hiding on Hills or Mountains (unless they're redlined), if it can be avoided.
You could try fielding more Catapults. They're good at hurting Medievals footslogging towards your cities, and against Knights they may just give your Pikemen the necessary edge by knocking off an extra hitpoint when the Knight charges.
But the real problem seems to be that you're not emerging from the ancient times with enough productive capacity. You might want to check out the War Academy for articles of building up your infrastructure. (Do you use the Despotic Whip (tm) alot? If yes, you may want to try to decrease it, since it hurts your long-term economic and industrial growth.)
And a final point: Don't expect the Musketmen to save you. Sure, they defend 33% better than Pikemen, but they cost a frikken 100% more. During wartime, having two Pikemen is almost always preferable to having one Musketman.
anarres
anarchist revolutionary
I would recommend mass upgrading, it is the best way by far to get cheap units.
Warriors to Med Inf is great, but Horsemen to Knights really rocks.
I always use this, and my army is always large enough by that time to go and attack myself. I can't remember worrying about my neighbours in the Middle Ages for a looong time. The Ancient Era is the only time you can really be caught by suprise, in the mad expansionist phase...
Warriors to Med Inf is great, but Horsemen to Knights really rocks.
I always use this, and my army is always large enough by that time to go and attack myself. I can't remember worrying about my neighbours in the Middle Ages for a looong time. The Ancient Era is the only time you can really be caught by suprise, in the mad expansionist phase...
Wow. A lot of advise. First off, I don't have a save of the game (unfortunately). Secondly, I usually get outo f ancient times havnig more or less successfully fought a war (destroying or crippling the attacking civ). I end up, though, with the usual econmic problems: not enough money to support the troops I built for the ancient war. I have to disband most of my offensive units (since, usually being a bit behind in science, I can't seem to afford cutting *it* down). This is usually followed by the advent of the middle ages and an invasion of my territory by another, intact civ.
As for infrastructure: I don't ever force production during despotism. I usually weather the ancient times with a despotism, moving to a republic after my usual ancient war (making me strapped for cash, having all of a sudden to support the units that were free--but again, I'm enough behind in tech that I can't afford to continue slipping behind). I'll certainly have to try cutting off science in exchange for funds during the tough medieval wars--but I really hate falling behind.
I appreciate all the military advise--I'll have to see how it flies when I test it out (I like SolarFlare's description of the period as inherently unstable since that's how it's been playing out for me). But I still have a problem with my medieval economy. Any suggestions for that (I'll check out the war academy for infrastructure advise)? Thanks.
As for infrastructure: I don't ever force production during despotism. I usually weather the ancient times with a despotism, moving to a republic after my usual ancient war (making me strapped for cash, having all of a sudden to support the units that were free--but again, I'm enough behind in tech that I can't afford to continue slipping behind). I'll certainly have to try cutting off science in exchange for funds during the tough medieval wars--but I really hate falling behind.
I appreciate all the military advise--I'll have to see how it flies when I test it out (I like SolarFlare's description of the period as inherently unstable since that's how it's been playing out for me). But I still have a problem with my medieval economy. Any suggestions for that (I'll check out the war academy for infrastructure advise)? Thanks.
Clown2TheLeft
Prince
Build lots of horsemen and do mass upgrades to knights, as they defend as well as pikemen and other knights cannot retreat from them.
BUILD WALLS in smaller cities.
Barracks produce vets. Use them.
BUILD WALLS IN SMALLER CITIES.
Swordsmen and Medieval inf. are great for knocking out those pesky footsoldiers. Don't waste the knights attack on those, rather save them for hitting enemy cities.
BUILD WALLS IN SMALLER CITIES.
Right click on cities before attacking them to be sure of the terrain underneath. Pikemen fortified in cities on hills can be deadly to your attacking forces; ensure you have enough to accomplish your objective before committing troops.
Did I mention the value of building walls in your smaller cities? Because if I didn't, I meant to...
Later!
--The Clown to the Left
BUILD WALLS in smaller cities.
Barracks produce vets. Use them.
BUILD WALLS IN SMALLER CITIES.
Swordsmen and Medieval inf. are great for knocking out those pesky footsoldiers. Don't waste the knights attack on those, rather save them for hitting enemy cities.
BUILD WALLS IN SMALLER CITIES.
Right click on cities before attacking them to be sure of the terrain underneath. Pikemen fortified in cities on hills can be deadly to your attacking forces; ensure you have enough to accomplish your objective before committing troops.
Did I mention the value of building walls in your smaller cities? Because if I didn't, I meant to...
Later!
--The Clown to the Left
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Lowering science sounds like a good idea. Having to lower it a bit after switching to Republic is quite common, and chances are you're reseaching at least as fast as you did under Despotism anyway.
Have you tried bribing a few AI civs into declaring war on your attacker? It might be hard if your strapped for cash, but it's worth a try.
Have you tried bribing a few AI civs into declaring war on your attacker? It might be hard if your strapped for cash, but it's worth a try.
eric2075
Warlord
If work at it, you can keep the other civ's attitudes much nicer towards you, making it less likely for them to declare war. ROP seems to make them nicer, as does lots of trading. Also, like The Last Conformist said, getting alliances can help a lot. It distracts them from using their full force on you.
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