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Mediterranean Adventure

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by vadalaz, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    You can actually start building world projects on the very next turn after the vote, which is why I had everything on 1 turn of production left.
    Looks like we'll enter a Golden Age and Industrial era soon, both of those will boost our culture output. I'd wait a bit longer to get maximum value out of the Writer.
     
  2. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    I've played T171 and T172. Killed a few more of Dido's Frigates. And she seems to have backed off, emphasis on seemed. I assume we want to build up our infrastructure a bit before going on offense. But do you all think I should keep building Frigates and Privateers? Or perhaps a couple of Banks? Or something else?

    Also, we have some workers that are ready to work; no more mines to build except the Forts near Neapolis can be converted to mines. Or should I build Farms on the empty grasslands? Or TP, we just got Free Thought.
     
  3. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I think I must have screwed that up as much as possible then! I know the idea is that, on the vote turn, all cites are to have one turn left on whatever it is they are building. Then the next turn put all cities on WF. Not sure what I was seeing that made me think some cities were a turn too early! Especially when I did note that the hammer Cargo Ship starting right on time! Lucky for me (us) it worked out.
    That is good. Have we decided on VC and Ideology? Are we hoping for Coal and Factories to get an Ideology?
     
  4. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Yes. I'd delete/suicide the Legions as well to free up more iron.

    Going for Artillery next makes the most sense to me. Our core 4 cities aren't strong enough, we need to start taking cities here.
     
  5. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    Are we allowed to gift unwanted units to CS?

    Shouldn´t we go Authocracy or Order here?
     
  6. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Ah good call, gifting to CSs is another option for the obsolete units. And any ideology's fine by me.
     
  7. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Should be fine for Venice. But what other cities can we take with Artillery? I think it is going to take a dozen Frigates to get our cities back from Dido.
     
  8. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Ok, here we go.

    T171. 1110AD.
    • Rome finishes Barracks, starts Frigate. Antium finishes something, don't really know what to build and we're hurting for gold so I switch to Wealth; we're at +1gpt.
    • Caravel takes an unguarded GrAd. Kill 2 frigates but prize ships failed so privateer will probably die.

    Interim. Greece adopts Autocracy. Privateer dies. No longer friends with Cyrene (Florence).

    T172. Cumae finishes workboat, starts market, ready in 2 turns. Neapolis finishes workboat, starts another. Social Policy > Free Thought.

    Interim. Askia enters Industrial Era.

    T173. 1130AD. Killed a frigate.

    T174. 1140AD. Killed canon on Corsica, rifleman at sea. Venice has MoV, watching him to make sure he doesn't go toward Monaco.

    Interim. Spain replaces Carthage as ally of Caesarea (Milan). Sidon DoW us.
    Spoiler Worlds most literate people :
    Techs1.jpg Techs2.jpg


    T175. 1150AD. Killed canon at sea.

    Interim. We discover Industrialization. Dido completes Brandenburg Gate.

    T176. 1160AD. No coal anywhere. Greece replaces Carthage as ally of Sidon, we make peace. Carthage has appeared to back off. Got range promo on a frigate, figured we can snipe from a safe distance.

    Interim. Babylon has adopted Autocracy. Greece supplants us as ally of Monaco, I really hate that guy.

    T177. 1170AD. We make peace with Sidon. Kill frigate, rifleman. Gift legion to Monaco, Greece only has 2 more influence than us. Take a shot at Sardinia with range promoted frigate.

    Interim. Dido offers peace - for all our expos.

    T178. Dido launches naval attack east of Sicily, move fleet to intercept.

    T179. Battle
    • An Ottoman settler shows up in the midst of the battle. He's south of our toe and I bet he's looking to settle the tip. Move Legion to block, move XBow from Neopolis to fort, move XBow from Rome south.
    • More Carthaginian ships arrive off the east coast of Sicily; 8 frigates and 2 privateers. Our fleet engages.
    Interim. We supplant Greece as ally of Monaco with our gift of a legion. Our caravel dies a valiant death protecting our frigates and privateers. Sidon DoW us.

    T180. Last turn.
    • Spy discovers Dido is plotting against Askia. We tell him and ask him to go to war, he declines.
    • We stage a coup in Cyrene (Florence).
    • The battle rages in the Strait of Messina.

    Interim. Our influence surprisingly fell in Belgrade. Suleiman and Ahmad enter Industrial Era.

    Notes:
    • There are only two Carthaginian frigates left in sight east of Sicily. The rest were destroyed or have fled (or are hiding just out of view lol).
    • There are two of our frigates west of Sardinia that were harassing the island.
    • We have no coal. Tirana (Genoa) has coal, I should have sent a spy there earlier I guess. But now our level 3 spy is available. Not sure how much it'll tick off Alex if we stage a coup in his CS. A few other CS do too but we aren't friends with them.
     

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  9. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Alex has 3 Coal that we can buy.

    We could Oxford + Rationalism finisher into Dynamite here and have Arties in ~10 turns it looks like. That uses both of our free tech boosts though. I'm not a fan of it but I feel like we have to do something here.
     
  10. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    Well, here we go again:
    T181: Bought 2 Coal from Alex for 3 gpt (could not afford more) and changed Rome to produce a Factory. Killed one Frigate and one Privateer and managed to capture another one.
    T182: Killed 1 Frigate + 1 Privateer. Alex stole Monaco from us. Bought the third Coal from Alex. Started the assault on Sicily. Sold Wine to Enrico for 5 gpt + OB.
    T183: Lost one Frigate in the assault. Took Secularism as SP. Sunk 3 Frigates. Started Factory in Cumae.
    T184: Remembered that OB deals had to be mutual so sold OB to Venice for 1 gpt. Dido sunk our Caravel. We sunk 2 Privateers. Fertilizer done.
    T185: Started Factory in Antium. Killed 2 Frigates + captured 1 Privateer. Conquered Sicily. Dido launched a counterattack on Rome pillaging our Pearls. We are unhappy again.
    T186: Killed 2 ships and 1 Rifleman. Sicily starts on Walls. Factory done in Rome, start on a Bank.
    T187: Killed 3 ships, 1 Rifleman and 1 Hakkapeliitta and captured 1 Privateer. Dido is pushing towards Rome. Started WB in Rome. Rome converted to Catholisism.
    T188: Killed 4 ships and 1 Rifleman. Dido has Artillery. Colosseum in Neapolis finished, we are on 0 happiness. Stupid spanish Profet closed the way for our WB.
    T189: Killed 3 ships, 2 Riflemen, 1 Artillery, 1 Cannon and 1 Cavalry and captured a Frigate. Metallurgy done.
    T190: Sunk 1 Privateer. Bank in Rome finished, started on a Cannon (to be upgraded) A lot of our ships are healing up. Dido managed to capture a Frigate at the end of the turn. @vadalaz has every possibilty to kill the ships between Sardinia and Rome (our advantage 9 to 4) but there are also two Frigates approaching Rome itself.

    So far there are two AIs in both Order and Authocracy and one in Freedom. Antium needs four turns for its Factory and then we are set to choose as well. Really cool turns to play! Our position is still somewhere between hopeless and abysmal, but for the first time in 150 turns, it feels like the game is moving in the right direction. I left all science decisions for you, @vadalaz. Dido is not demanding all expands for peace anymore. Her "bargin" deal is "only" Sicily and Cumae. Dido is not first in army size anymore, I wonder why. :)
     

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    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  11. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T191: Renewed DoF with Alex. He still doesn't want to DoW Dido. I see Spain has top military score and ask her as well, she declines. Out of curiosity I check if she would've accepted a bribe, and guess what, she'd DoW Dido for 5 gpt. That's so stupid. A friend asking for help? This doesn't suit our interests. A whopping 5 gold per turn? Oh yes, we'll fight to the death.

    Level 3 spy staged a coup in Cyrene, moved out to Constantinople. Bought Cotton from Darius for 5 gpt and voting Nay on banning Whales. Up to 8 happiness for now.

    Started Banks in Cumae and Neapolis, University in Sicily to unlock Oxford. Killed 3 Privateers, 3 Frigates, plundered a trade route. Prize ships: Frigate, 2 Privateers. Renewed caravan to Venice.

    T192: Golden Age ends. Killed 2 Artilleries, a Cavalry and a Privateer. Prize ship: Privateer. I keep asking Alex and Isabella to declare war on Dido.

    T193: Adopted Freedom - it was the only option to get a free tenet, and Byzantium's tourism is higher than the Order/Autocracy civs anyway. I pick half-food specialists as the freebie. Dido loses a Frigate and 2 Cavalries. Surely at some point she'll become weak enough for Isabella or Alex to finally declare war on her?

    T194: New SP: Avant Garde. Started Artists' Guild in Rome. Killed a Frigate. Sending units through the strait between Carthage and Sardinia to try to encircle the latter.

    T195: Our spies find out that both Enrico and Theodora are plotting against us. Great Writer is born; I burn him to get a bit closer to Universal Suffrage. Dido tries to intercept the flanking ships, loses 2 Frigates and a Quinquereme for it. We only get the Quinquereme. Cumae starts building a Cannon.

    T196: Milan kills the Quinquereme. Killed Milan's Privateer and Galleass, both ships join our side. Killed Dido's Caravel. Started shooting Sardinia. Bought Gold from Alex for 9 gpt. Finished Military Science. We're on track to steal Scientific Theory or Archaeology from Enrico very soon, so I start researching Acoustics. Purchased an Inquisitor (Eastern Orthodoxy).

    T197: Persia (48 tourism) picks Freedom. Removed heresy from Rome. Started Temple in Rome, because Eastern Orthodoxy has Religious Centers. Killed two of Quebec's Privateers and a Carthagian Frigate. Still shooting Sardinia.

    T198: Killed 3 Frigates, 2 of them joined us, so I had to buy some Iron. Started Cargo Ship in Rome.

    T199: DoF with Persia. Suleiman settles the stupid city; I forgot to park some unit on that spot, too focused on the war, apologies. Sicily starts Aqueduct, Rome starts Oxford. Shooting Sardinia. It should fall next turn.

    T200: Captured Sardinia. It kept very few buildings, but luckily it did keep its University. Sent food to Rome; maybe I should've sent hammers to Sardinia instead. Bought Silver from Harun for 9 gpt, bringing us up to 4 happiness again. Next policy in 6 turns, Universal Suffrage should help a lot with our happiness issues. A Great Scientist spawns in Neapolis. Dido doesn't want to make peace at all now.

    A lux trade ended in the interim so we're unhappy, not for long though.

    @beetle:

    - Next policy in 5 turns; I was thinking Universal Suffrage. We also get an Artist in 5 turns, so we could start a long Golden Age to help build schools/artillery/whatever
    - Spy steal from Enrico in 4 turns (unless the spy dies). Enrico has 3 techs that we don't have: Architecture, Archaeology and Scientific Theory. The greedy play is to go Rifling after Architecture here and steal both Sci Theory and Archaeology from Venice. Spy steal from Theodora in 18 turns as well, but there's a good chance she has a counterspy as she's the tech leader. I think it's worth a shot - we could get Radio from her.
    - Keep an eye on the Spanish Great Prophet, he came back as soon as I removed heresy in Rome
     

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    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  12. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Oxford for Dynamite seems like weak play, but I don’t have have better ideas. And we can hit Carthago Nova from shore. Also I have a loose GS. No Bees, so don’t I have to plant him?

    Things are looking pretty good to me, actually. I must not have read closely enough, as I am pleased to see we have both Sardinia and Sicily back.

    Edit to ask if we are keeping or razing Carthago Nova? I vote raze.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Update: My question about razing or keeping Carthage Nova was presumptuous. At the end of my rounds, it is only half dead, and it looks like Monaco will raze it for us.
    • T201 kill a Frigate; take bad lux trade from Askia; launch GG to steal Coal from Carthago Nova; cities building Cannons put Barracks in front of queue; Neapolis switches to Cargo Ship; Cumae switches to work boats; Sicily buys hill tile in 3rd ring (so Oidu doesn’t steal it)
    • T202 kill two Privateers; pillaging Didos Crabs and Fish
    • T203 Nebby asks to DoW Suleiman (decline); Hakkapeliitta takes worker in Sicily, sloppy on my part; a Privateer is captured; start researching Rifling; GG Citadel gets us our Coal and safe tile for our Cannon to wait on Dynamite (since it spoils LoS from Carthago Nova); kill two Frigates, one prizing opportunity fails
    • T204 Caesarea (Milan) making poor life choices, and looses four ships; prize Milan Galleass (it will die next turn, but that is fine since it gives a nearby Frigate another turn before it will need to withdraw to heal); Sicily is under heavier threat than I anticipated
    • T205 Theodora builds Eiffel Tower; steal Scientific Theory from Venice; prize a Frigate, kill embarked Calvary and a couple more Milanese ships
    • T206 Alex asks to trade OB and I agree; Enrico scolds us for spying, our agents go where they please; sign DoF w/ Ahmad; Oxford finishes for Dynamite, but I lost a turn because I couldn’t abide a Canon w/o Kilimanjaro buff; GA born which I put in Palace; prize a couple frigates, kill one other, and kill a worker because free xp; Rome starts on Public School; send Caravan to Monaco for trade quest; against all odds, I remember to theme Oxford; adopt Universal Suffrage
    • T207 Carthage Artillery leaves safety of Carthago Nova, I guess to pillage our Coal, it dies; Monaco now our ally, I gift her a Frigate because we are short an Iron; send Cargo Ship to Ephesus (Vatican City) for quest
    • T208 poor trade w/ Ramesses for CS quest; Rifling researched, start on Archaeology; kill a Frigate; first arty now taking shots on Carthago Nova (which now has a new Artillery, so no respite, not even one turn)
    • T209 lose a Privateer; Isabella converts Rome again, just as soon as I stopped actively blocking her GPr; Dido has landed an Artillery on Sicily, which I though I had LoS enough to prevent; I buy an Inquisitor; kill fours ships, prizing one; kill a couple embarked units and the arty which landed
    • T210 no losses this turn; Belgrade gifts us a Gat with xp, but I am not sure what to do with it; Kill GAd and more ships; another GS born which I plant near Rome, for our third Academy; station inquisitor outside Rome; Dido thinks we should be giving up three cities for peace
    • Interstitial: loose a Frigate; we loose influence in Belgrade
    @raider980 you are going to have fun! Armory in couple turns, then two more Arty few turns after that (they are half built). But nothing for Arty to do (that I can see) until we DoW Venice. Please do not forget to run them by Kilimanjaro!

    I strongly recommend not burning that Inquisitor. It needs to stay on station, as Isabella will try converting Rome (but hopefully only Rome) all game. You will need another Inquisitor to remove the heresy from Rome. (Faith purchase that Inquisitor in any city other than Rome.)

    If the Spy in Constantinople does not dies, my suggestion is to move her to Belgrade.

    Edit (for grammar) but also to note that I never looked at citizen assignment. Please check that!
     

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    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  14. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    When are we going to attack Venice? Can we do it while fighting Dido? Seems to me we will just have to hold out against Didos forces because we’re going to need Battleships to attach Carthage proper.

    We should be trading OB to only the other Freedom Civs, for the ideological pressure, right? Is there any other reason to trade OB this late in the game? I guess Greece so he can get some missionaries through until we can prevent Isabella from converting Rome.
     
  15. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    If we want to do it with style, I think we should steal Biology from Venice and take the city on the same turn. In 14 turns that is.

    We have no army though. To fight both Carthage and Venice, I'd prefer 12+ artillery here and some meatshields. On the turn you DoW Venice, position some of our ships on the tiles occupied by the Cargo Ships that Enrico's sending to our cities - this way we get the plunder and 200 gold.

    As for Carthage, I was thinking about taking Gades first and landing a bunch of Arties there. Gades, Utique, Carthage and Hippo whatever all look like really good cities to keep. Constantinople too, but we'll definitely need Battleships for that one.

    Edit: we can trade Crabs for Whales with Theodora for 3 WLTKDs
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  16. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    How fast are policies unlocking? FLeas could be pick after next.

    I think once we take Carthage, Dido will offer up a (trash) city or two for peace. That would let us cleanly shift focus to Venice and whatever we are doing next. I don’t think we need artillery to take Carthage, because we have a few Frigates with range and a few that will get the double tap promo soon.

    Are we trying for Dom VC? That will be kind of tedious with so many AIs on the map. I had presumed the wars were mostly for the lultz.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  17. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Looking at the game now. My initial thoughts:
    • Venice and Carthage just made a DoF.
    • I know that Venice needs to take their rightful place in the Roman Empire but I don't think we should do it before we take down/weaken/make peace with Carthage.
      • We have a TR with Venice giving 13.5gpt. Venice has 6 TR with us, giving us 25gpt; they are getting 94gpt from those TR, so it will hurt them more than us, but will it hurt them enough? We are at -11gpt now so if we lose those TR we'll be hurting for gold. Where can we get more money?
    • However, the city of Carthage is 104 defense. I don't think we can take that with Frigates, even ranged ones.
    • Gades is an option first, but Caesarea is on the west side of Gades and will be attacking us too.
    Whew, we have a conundrum.
     
  18. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Plundering trade routes and pillaging tiles will keep us afloat for a while, starting a golden age with the next artist can help as well. Once Stock Exchanges are online and we have enough population to work merchant specialists and trading posts, our economy will be fine.
    Probably SV or even Diplo at this point. Without bulbs the late game will be slow, and conquering cities will boost our science in the long run, even if we don't go for a DomV.
     
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Agreed.
    What @vadalaz wrote. Plus the negative gpt is mostly from the poor deals I took for WLtKD and CS quests.
    We can, but it will take 15+ turns, and only once we have 3+ Frigates with Bombard and Logistics. The Frigates w/o Logistics (or with the Naval buff) are of no use (for taking cities), but Dido is giving us plenty of targets to level up with. Also, we already have three Great Admirals. We can burn one or two as needed to Repair Fleet, once we are at liberty to tighten up our formation.
    Sounds very good to me!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  20. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    The only TR to pillage are Venice’s, which would mean going to war.
    Next policy is around T225-7, so in the middle of Nizef's turn.
    Frigates with Logistics is a ways away. Yes, Dido does have an endless supply of ships but that is a double edged sword; we can't get close enough to the city to hit it. Plus, for some reason Askia has had a fleet parked right outside of Carthage for hundreds of years; its really starting to get in the way.
     

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