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Mediterranean Adventure

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by vadalaz, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Yeah, I could not figure out what Askia is doing. He is hostile, and not for any good reason that I could tell. He will not take a bribe to DoW Dido (against our rules, but no harm checking). During my turn, I was kind of expecting him to DoW us. But he didn’t, and he never added to his fleet.

    Am I correct to recall that half the Songhai fleets is Triremes and Gallasses? XP for killing obsolete units is same as killing those that are contemporary. We have a few Frigates on their third Bombard promotion. Frigates with Logistics is pretty soon. And after Logistics, the Range promotion comes fast. I guess I am saying that you could DoW Askia if you feel like the siege of Carthage will take too long?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  2. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    DoWing Askia to remove those stupid ships sounds good to me. You can also ask some of our friends to join, maybe it'll work against an AI that's not as strong as Dido.
     
  3. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    T218. Dido has GW Bombers. I'm going to retreat out of range. She's got 4 of them in Carthage. They can practically one shot our Frigates I think.
     
  4. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Crap, that does suck. Keep in mind though, that unless she adds a Fighter, she cannot see ships that are outside her borders. So “retreat out of range” can be pretty close. (But not close enough for double-tap Frigates to take two shots and retreat safely.) I now agree with your assessment that we will not be taking Carthage with only Renaissance era ships.

    But do we even need Carthage? I do not care to loose Sicily again, but I am okay with a holding pattern. I vote give up on Dido, and DoW Enrico sooner than later. If Venice gets air, it will hardly matter how many Artillery we have. We do not need a dozen Artillery; four is enough, and I think we have five. We only have the one melee unit though, but that’s probably not a big deal because we can cap Venice with a Privateer.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  5. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    What about peace with Dido? What are the terms right now?
     
  6. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Wow that was a long and stressful set of turns but fun and rewarding too. Started off good, got worse toward the end. Had to change plans due to Dido getting GWBombers on T217.

    Pregame analysis. We're getting 25 gpt from Venice TRs. And 13 from ours to them. So decide to focus on Carthage.

    T211. 1505AD. Venice and Carthage sign DoF, Enrico, you've got to go. Get OB with Theodora and Darius for Freedom ideology positive pressure. Trade crab for whales, surprised she traded her last copy. Bombard Carthago Nova, its in the red. Killed ships near Sicily.

    Interim. We discover Archeology > Electricty; we have on antiquity site on Sicily and that's it in our territory. WLtKD in Rome, Sicily, Cumae. Egypt denounces Carthage. Venice denounces Greece. Alex enters Modern Era.

    T212. 1510AD. DoF is up with Spain, renew it. Carthaginian cavalry and arty land in Sicily. Darn, Monaco can't capture Carthago Nova. I think we may have to take it. Rome builds PS212 > Workboat (here I go again with the WB, sorry). Assign delegates, vote for Spain for bonus points. We might need to help Monaco, Dido is attacking it from the west.

    Interim. Dido offers peace for only 3 of our cities now. Askia chides us for getting too close to Spain. Greece denounces Byzantium. Geneva (Tirana is awed by our tech advancement).

    T213. Rome finishes WB > WB (they only take 1 turn). World congress in 10 turns; two bad proposals are up. Ban Crabs, thanks Theodora and World Ideology Autocracy. Give Venice wine for OB since we had tons of wine and we are off kilter with the OBs.

    Interim. Enrico warns us not to get too close to Spain, denounces Spain.

    T214. Rome finishes WB > Seaport. Renew caravan to Venice. Ships head toward Gades to scout it out.

    Interim. Give Venice OB. Dang, Dido plundered TR between Rome and Monaco.

    T215. Neapolis finishes Arty > Cargo Ship to replace lost one. Monaco is not going to be able to take Carthago Nova so I take it and set it afire. It has a lot of buildings still so I'll stop it at 1 pop and sell the buildings as long as we're in positive happiness. Sell the seaport.

    Interim. Down to 3 happiness. We lose a privateer.

    T216. Oh on, Dido has GWInfantry.

    Interim. Our frigate is damaged by a GWBomber oh no, worse.

    T217. Only one GWB so far. We kill a bunch of ships and embarked units heading for Sicily. Dido still wants 3 cities for peace.

    Interim. Privateer is killed by a GWB. Greece captures that Ottoman city on our toe. We have two sources of aluminum, 16 total from somewhere. Sardinia desires gems.

    T218. 3 GWB and a fighter in Carthage. Ships retreat to a safe distance.

    Interim. 3 GWB hit Sicily, darn I didn't think they could reach it. Ottomans DoF with Venice and Songhai.

    T219. Pillage sea resources around Lilysomething. Spy steals radio from Theodora. 36 turns until next steal, that sounds like a lot. New spy to Samarkand. Decide to split our navy. Move the land attack promoted frigates toward Venice with a couple of privateers. Leave the naval attack promoted frigates to guard Sicily and Sardinia. Start moving artys toward Venice.

    Interim. Persia offers RA for 350g, we can't afford it. Two GWB strike Sicily. Carthage and Songhai DoF, darn ideologies. Belgrade, Miland and Byblos DoW us.

    T220. We're at 3 unhappiness, Carthago Nova grew so I start it burning again. Trade Suleiman his single silk for copper, citrus (we have 4) and a few aluminum (which I don't think we'll need for awhile right?). Trade Isabella 5 Al for copper, back to +1 happiness.

    Interim. Carthage XBow pillages farm west of Antium. WLtKD in Antium and Neapolis from silk trade. Spain adopts autocracy, darn.

    Notes:
    • There is a Carthaginian CS going past Lilybaem headed east. I positioned a frigate east of Lilybaem to hopefully pillage it soon.
    • I think I've left enough ships to protect Sicily and Sardinia.
    • I kept Carthago Nova alive to sell all its buildings; we were able to make money despite negative gpt. Its burning now so do with it what you will, there are still a couple of buildings in there, but they're cheap ones.
    • Darn, I told Theodora we won't spy any more but I forgot to move the spy, so you'll need to move it Nizef.
    I'll be interested to see what happens!

    Spoiler T221 :
    T221.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  7. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I don’t understand what you are doing with Carthago Nova? Partially razing to control pop is still a net hit to happiness, at least until you build a Courthouse. And once you pause razing, the increased cost to Social Policies and Science is permanent. And it only has like two tiles which it does not have to share with one of our decent cities. OTOH, now we don’t have to worry about Suleiman planting there? Either puppet or raze (completely) upon capture is the best choice 99% of the time. Raze then pause is pretty much the worst of both. Yeah, some extra gold from selling a few more buildings. That can be worth it late game for Medical Labs and Stadiums.

    Everything else looks great!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  8. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    I thought we were not going to renew DoF with Spain? After all they are one of the sources for Dido being mad at us? But that aside, in a crazy way I like this game even better than SG1 with Ethiopia. Here everything is uncertain and a win a distant dream.
     
  9. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Huh. Other than all the extra AIs, this game feels pretty much like most of my games! I constantly make mistakes. I am at the bottom of the score board all game. But still I can expect to win 75% of the time!
     
  10. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Oh, I didn't know that if you immediately raze a city it doesn't count against social policies and science. But as long as we raze it before we conquer Venice it won't matter, it will be the same: only +1. I never planned on keeping it, I just kept it for the gold since we were hurting - and it actually made us gold. As long as we're in positive happiness it doesn't matter how much in the positive we are (I don't think we have any bonuses that reward more happiness?).

    I don't remember reading that in the previous posts, sorry for that. I just figured we'd try and stay on her good side so she doesn't attack us too. I think Dido has permanent hatred for us and we will be at war for the rest of the game regardless of what we do (until we take enough of her cities to force her to make peace).
     
  11. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I am okay with the DoF to Spain. I agree with @raider980 that Dido has permanent hatred for us. Now that Isabella has a different ideology than us, we can expect that she will soon denounce us. So that is a backstab against her, and might be enough to earn her some real hate. Also, I cannot imagine she is too fond of Dido being in France.
    It counts against social policies and science while the city is burning down. But once the city is gone, the SP and science costs return to what they were before capturing the city.
    It won’t matter much in the long run but only if (1) we capture Venice, and (2) annex Venice (so long as Carthago Nova is gone before we annex Venice). I am not sure (1) and (2) are givens.

    Under Citizen Management, there is a check box for “Avoid Growth” which works. That is better than razing. Also, it is better (i.e., less unhappiness in the short and long run) to starve down a city (e.g., don’t work food tiles) than to Raze (not as fast though). Razing, as a means to manage Happy, is counterproductive.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  12. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    I should have brushed up on the penalties for raze/puppet/annex before I took the city. That’s one thing I always forget about. Sorry, hopefully it doesn’t delay our SP’s too much.
     
  13. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    Here we go:
    T221: Just reshuffling and killing some incoming naval units. Start moving troops towards Venice. Burnt Carthago Nova to the ground.
    T222: More of the above. Spain conquered Marrakech.
    T223: I asked Alex to form a united front against Venice. He is okay with that and thus the battle of Venice starts. I kill some land units and start to chew up their navy as well.
    T224: Dido mounts more pressure on Sicily. The city is taking damage from 3-4 GWBs and she is trying to land GWIs on the island. Up in the N things are going according to plan and setting up the Artillery units. I kill 3-4 ships a turn as well. Enrico has his first GWB.
    T225: Venice take severe damage from the first salvo alone. They loose another 4 ships. Dido is really pushing Sicily and she managed to land some units on the island. The city will go down unless there is a miracle.
    T226: Cleaning up the waters near Venice and the Artillery units are hammering the city itself and it is already down to red. Sicily is in big trouble as it got hammered by 6 GWBs. Our spy stole Flight.
    T227: We conquer Venice. There is still some mopping up to do but Enrico will not retake the city. Dido takes Sicily from us. Our fleet is trying to kill as many units as possible in both theatres.
    T228-230: Venice is definitely safe now but we have no means of retaking Sicily but the fighting continues in the waters around the island. Dido has not moved GWBs to the island, at least not yet. We reached Biology. Rome starts on our first GWB.

    Taking Venice was very easy but our situation is still mediocre. We are among the last in techs and Dido´s position is still decent/strong. We are not loosing money anymore and our happiness is above zero.
     

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  14. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Dido is offering to give us a bit of GPT for peace now. We don't allow GPT from AIs, but white peace is legal here since we're making the deal worse for us and not the AI. I can't push into planes with Frigates and Arties anyway and we need to sail our Venetian fleet back.

    I should be able to get Sicily back and make peace. Dido will likely DoW again in 10 turns but we'll have planes of our own then, and we'll be close to Battleships as well.
     
  15. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I am very much okay with our no-negotiating-peace-terms rule being an an exception to our no-gpt-deals-from-AIs rule. The idea of both is to not take advantage of common exploits, but overlapping them isn’t really doing anything but making it clear that we should have thought out our self-imposed rules just a bit more.

    One rule addresses the white peace bug.
    One rule addresses the the trade bug.

    Combining them just highlights how narrow the is the range between when the computer thinks it’s winning and when it thinks it is loosing. But the point of our rules was to not take advantage of exploits, and not to demonstrate that certain aspects of the game are broken.
     
  16. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    I was thinking along the same lines.
     
  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    You're right. I guess the lesson for me here is that what the AI thinks doesn't matter. What matters is what we think. If we honestly think we're winning the war or it's a stalemate, making peace is fine and not exploity.

    And I don't think we're winning the war at all, which is why making peace right now feels cheap. I'll keep defending.
     
  18. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T231:
    • I thought we told Theodora we wouldn't spy on her? Moved level 1 spy to Monaco to rig elections and maintain alliance, level 3s to Ur and Yerevan to stage coups
    • Rome: Musicians' Guild (4 CSs asking for GMu including the three cities I sent spies to), Antium: GWB, Sardinia: Aqueduct, Neapolis: Factory.
    • Nothing for the GE to rush here, so I'll plant him on a Deer for a 4f/5h tile that can be worked by either Rome or Cumae.
    • A lot of tile rearrangement. We haven't been working one of our academies.
    • Moving fleet out of range of Dido's bombers, sent one Privateer to look for cargo ships. Killed a GWI.
    • Artist will sit around for a bit longer. It'd be nice to have Venice out of resistance for the Golden Age.
    • Made peace with Byblos
    • Bought 7 Oil from Persia
    Interim: Dido finishes Kremlin. I suppose she'll start one-turning GWBs now instead.

    T232: Lux trades for happiness and WLTKDs. Bought 4 more Oil from Persia and 3 more from Arabia, we're up to 17 Oil now. Killed two GWIs and Enrico's Gatling Gun with a GMoV. Signed RAs with Theodora and Alex.

    T233: More of the same. Micromanaging, moving units, killing stray units. Keeping Sicily in the red to make it an easy capture in case Dido moves bombers there.
    Interim: Looks like Persia's getting crushed by Babylon. Maybe Darius shouldn't have sold us his Oil. :D

    T234: First Carthagian Battleship spotted. Started building a Factory in Sardinia, GWB in Cumae, Cargo Ship in Rome.

    T235: I ask around if anyone wants to DoW Dido. All decline as expected. Killed a Battleship, no prize ship unfortunately, it's only a 28% chance with a Privateer. Zurich wants Salt which is an easy quest, so I pledge to protect them.

    T236: One-turning a workboat in Rome. 4 GWBs stationed in Lilybaeum. I'll play it safe and assume Dido has Range promotions on her bombers. Made peace with Sidon
    Interim: Enrico DoWs Babylon (???), but more importantly, Askia and Dido DoW Isabella. Maybe Askia will move his stupid ships out of the way now and Dido will have someone else to fight.

    T237: Sent Food to Rome. Rome resumed building GWB. Started researching Electronics. Dido's attacking Santiago; if she takes the city, we might be able to liberate it and kill some of Dido's units there. Next Artist in 12 turns, so I pop the one we have for a 12-turn Golden Age. We'll need a lot of gold for Battleship upgrades.

    T238: I remove heresy in Rome and buy an Inquisitor for Venice as well. Recruited one of Dido's Battleships!
    Interim: Alex becomes allies with Monaco.

    T239: GS spawns in Cumae. RA with Spain. Sunk a Carrier with a GWB on board. Moved a small fleet closer to Santiago. Dido's focusing on this city, so we might be able to get some cheap kills there.

    Interim: Dido takes Santiago. Isabella loses her source of Spices and we trade Spices for Salt with her. Theodora allies with Monaco now, this is bad news, they might start throwing 500 gold at the city every turn now. We're rigging election soon and getting a GMu for their quest though.

    T240: Planted another academy on a Deer. Started building Hospital in Rome, Seaport in Neapolis, Triplane in Antium. We spawn two bombers, the one in Rome only has 15 XP, I thought we had Armories everywhere?

    Interim: DoF with Greece ended. Theodora and Dido in Atomic era. Rigged elections in 3 CSs, gaining back ally status with Monaco. Dido moves her fleet towards Cumae.

    TL;DR:
    Signed 3 RAs (Darius the only option left now), killed a bunch of units, moved spies to CSs. Dido and Askia declared war on Spain. Dido has Battleships and Carriers.

    Notes:
    • GMu spawns next turn. We have an 83% chance of a successful coup in Yerevan already, so we can try it this turn and then solidify the alliance with the GMu quest next turn. Ur is more risky at the moment, but should be an 85% coup next turn.
    • Renew DoF with Greece I guess?
    • Silver's the only luxury we don't have. If we get it we'll have constant WLTKDs everywhere.
    • We have 3 RAs going. Would be nice to finish Rationalism before the RAs are completed. There's one more RA we can sign with Darius...
    • ...but we also need gold for unit upgrades. Edit: And it looks like Darius might be dying anyway.
     

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    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Quickly looking things over, I should be able to play over my lunch break (so, in the next couple of hour).
    • Looks like I can liberate Agadir (near Spain), and Santiago is on the way there, so I plan to focus on those cities.
    • The war with Carthage is probably a stalemate, but I plan to continue.
      • Dido is offering 10 gpt, but I am not willing to give up Sicily. I doubt that I will take it during my turns. If I do, I plan to delete the 10 gpt and accept White Peace.
      • @vadalaz doesn’t think we are winning this war. I think we are, and have been, so peace does not feel cheap to me.
      • Our GWI cannot hit Sicily, but they are only one tile short. This is another handicap from settling on the wrong shore. We will have a Carrier soon.
    • Enrico will accept straight White Peace. I plan to take that since I think Alex will kill him off. We might liberate/recall him later.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  20. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    We should make sure to kill all the MoV before we make peace with Enrico.
     

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