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Memhed II: The indestructable AI

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by digitCruncher, Oct 16, 2008.

  1. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Chieftain

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    Well... almost. If it hadn't been for an oversight, the war would have taken a different turn.

    Thirty second summary: I am the Spanish (RNG picked Issy), playing Earth2 map, and I decided to play a new techique, and try and nab buddism. I got it, so I have the Buddhist Shrine (and Taoist, and Confusist, etc. etc.). Unfortunatly, I got stuck in Europe, which, in Earth 2, seems as if the developers decided to stick Europe in as an oversight, and covered it in plains, giving vast grasslands to everyone.

    Blah blah blah, random event kills the Aztecs, blah blah, Germany conquers almost all of Africa, blah blah, backstab the Persians to grab the Sahara Desert (covered in jungles, and grassland O.o) blah blah, 5700 years later, I am at war with Memhed with my allies, blah blah, Germany (backstabbing *****es) attacks me back, blah blah. Ah!! The good bits.

    At the beginning of the war (circa 1650), The Ottomans were the strongest civ in the world. Sporting 2 vassals (Saladin of Arabia, who spawned in Korea, and decided to spread over Indonesia, and North Australia, and Hatty, a colony of the Ottomans, who exist in South Australia), and a power rating of 0.5 compared to me (IE. Double my strength), they declare war on Rome. In the first turn, Rome asks if I can help, and as I am in Europe, Rome is in West Asia, and the Ottomans are in East Asia (IE. Rome is a buffer), I accept.

    The war went wrong from the beginning. The Ottomans built an AMAZING stack, with MUCH more siege than I have ever seen in an AI stack, and a large regular force. Before I could build Longbows in most of my cities, Rome had lost 2 cities, and the Ottoman Stack was outside Rome itself, a massive wonder city. If that fell, Rome would surely capitulate to the Ottomans, meaning that I would never survive any Ottoman war.

    I managed to whip a large army (My capital dropped from size 18 to size 3, whipping Trebs every second turn. With a citidel, they came off the mark with CR III), and send it desperately at the Ottomans. A bloody war ensued, in which I recaptured the Ottoman cities. With 1 loss.

    Over the next 20 turns or so, I managed to

    * Make Saladin give up on his vassalage to the Ottomans. I made peace ASAP, but my galleons got pushed into a trap, surrounded on Arabian culture, and land tiles, everywhere. I decided to blockade the Ottoman city, causing them to spam over 50 TRIREMES!!

    * Capture 2 cities
    * Raze thier capital, (which also happened to have 2 WW's, 2 NW's, and be the highest production, and gold producing city in the land), and another city, with another WW in it.
    * Capture thier only source of iron, and blockade (and capture) thier only sheeps.
    * Drop them down from a 0.5 power rating, to a 1.5 power rating. Just to clarify, I probably killed over half thier troops, and only lost 1 musket, and 1 treb (at 99, and 60% odds respectively). So thats like, what?? 50:1 kill ratio??
    * Send thier economy into a nose-dive, forcing them to set thier taxes at a massive 90% in order for them to end up LOSING gold, and 7 GPT (with 79 Gold in thier coffers)

    So, I ask them what they want for peace. Discussion goes like this.

    Me: I have razed your land, blown your empire to smithereens, reduced your armies to squabbling rabbles, crushed your economy, destroyed your capital, reduced your power in the world scheme, and my armies of rifles are slaughtering your Jannisaries as we speak!! You lack the gold, and the production, to build Grenadiers, so you are doomed!! Will you save your people, and capitulate?

    Memhed: No

    Me: What? Surely, then, you will allow me to have Chemistry anyway... right?

    Memhed: No.

    Me: Can I at least have 10 gold? Hell... just anything!!

    Memhed: I'll give you a map.

    Me: Wha...??

    Memhed: A world map. Our World Map.

    Me: WHY!? I have scouted the world, I mean, I have 8 friggin' cities in South America, which you wouldn't know where they are... at least give me something...

    Memhed: No.

    It seems as if NO is Memhed favorite word. WHY won't Memhed be reasonable... if I was in his position, I would give up... I would have given up about 20 turns ago, and kept my capital!!

    I HAD to end the war (Germany is 'this close' *fingers 1 mm apart* to a cheese AP win, if either India (his colony), or any other civ get a bit more Confusist, then he can vote for victory... so I will have to unify South America, and destroy the Indians from the face of thier planet, and to hold of Germany, I will need my main attack force...

    So, my two questions: How can Memhed possibly think he can win?? And who else is a pain in the butt to capitulate, or even get a tech out of!?
     
  2. FarbroBarbro

    FarbroBarbro Chieftain

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    Maybe you should be able to crush the other opponents without declaring peace with Mehmed? If his armies really are almost non-existent, it might be enough to put some smaller garrisons near key points or in your cities?

    He doesn't seem to be able to rebuild that quickly. :king:
     
  3. Solomwi

    Solomwi Chieftain

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    Why not just make peace? If you were willing to make peace for 10 gold, you should be willing to do so for free, since 10 gold is unlikely to be critical to your plans. It sounds like avoiding the opportunity costs of keeping your stack occupied with Mehmed is the real gain you're looking for, so why squander that over a point of pride (if that's why you want some "tribute")?
     
  4. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Chieftain

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    Lol, no the point of that thing is that I *thought* that Memhed would accept Capitulation. But it was read-ed out.

    So I tried asking for Chemistry, they declined.

    I noticed that they had 0 gold in the 'willing to trade' amount, so I checked in thier cities, and they had 70+ gold there. This means that Memhed wouldn't even trade even the smallest amount of gold for peace.

    In desperation, I asked what He would like to have for peace... and he gave the epic offer... Peace, for his World Map (which I already knew about, and without Astronomy, (nor even Compass!!) there would be nothing that I don't already know.

    Thats the story of the big line of text.

    And the original idea of settling for peace was to free my galleons to launch a big amphibious attack... it didn't work either :(

    (He did settle for 80 gold, and 7 GPT for peace the following turn... after he took another small hit from Rome...)
     
  5. Joshua368

    Joshua368 Warmongering builder

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    Did he still have a vassal at the end of it? I know you said Saladin broke free, but what about Wang Kon?

    I also had a game where my opponent was unable to capitulate because he had a vassal who didn't break free. Seems to be an annoying quirk of the AI... though I've heard people say opponents with vassals have capitulated before, I haven't experienced that.
     
  6. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Chieftain

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    Sorry for the confusion... The civs, locations, and vassal states of all civs are explained here:

    Spain. Location: Europe / Almost all of South America / North Africa / South Africa
    Rome. Location: West Asia
    Ottomans. Location: East Asia. Master of Egypt
    Arabia. Location: Korea / Indonesia
    Egypt. Location: South Australia. Vassal (Colony) of Ottomans
    Germany. Location: Almost all of Africa. Master of India
    Persia. Location: Middle East / South-west Asia
    India. Location: Cuba (South-eastern coast of South America)

    So, yes, the Ottomans still had a vassal, Egypt, but Arabia broke free (it was a volontery vassalage), and because he didn't feel Rome and Spains wrath, is now higher ranked, in tech, power, production, and points, than the Ottomans.

    I will probably be back to finish the Ottomans off. But what is making Memhed so... pig headed? Is Hattie REALLY that influential? I have had masters capitulate (and thier vassals becoming free states) multiple times before...
     
  7. Charonicus

    Charonicus Chieftain

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    Some Civs just seem oblivious to the inevitability of their own demise. I was fighting Joao earlier and I took out two of his cities and fancied a breather to grab more trebs before carrying on. Got him on the Diplophone™. Joao, what's the price for peace?
    Joao: "Give me back my two cities and you've got a deal."

    ¬¬ What an idiot. He's now dead. Three more Portuguese cities in my hands, and one in the hands of that opportunist Ragnar.
     
  8. DeadDark

    DeadDark Chieftain

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    @digitCruncher: I am insufficiently competent to offer any perspective on "Mehmed the No," but am curious how that game will play out. Post what happens/happened, when you get a chance. BTW, what difficulty are you on?

    --DeadDark
     
  9. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    The powers of master and vassal are combined which has a pretty high impact on the negotiations with the AIs, especially when it comes to capitulation. If the combined powers put an AI above the average power level of all players in the game it will never capitulate, no matter how much stronger you are compared to them.
     
  10. Justy

    Justy Chieftain

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    Oftentimes I find out when I send the army into the countryside and go on a razing rampage the AI goes into panic mode. But if Mehmed is saying you can take my 10 gold when you pry it from my cold dead fingers maybe not even the cries of the peasants will sway his mind.

    It probably is the vassals contributing to his fortitude. Go and wipe out their powerbases then Mehmed might fork over some goodies.
     
  11. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Chieftain

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    I will go past everyone who posted, because I am cool like that :p

    @Charronicus: Thats a worse story than mine!! At least, Memhed, when he noticed the war wasn't going his way, when I re-captured Rome, didn't continue to demand stuff. But he remained at "Peace for World Map" all throughout the war!!

    @DeadDark: Sure. Its going to be a slaughter, as soon as Germanies "Cheese AP win" is negated... I own, personally, Almost all of South America. As soon as I capture India, and settle 2 inland cities, I WOULD have captured, literrally, the entire continent of South America. I can whip the Forbidden Palace soon, for ~100 GPT (I am not kidding... overseas colonies are EXPENSIVE, and my distance from palace + colony maintanance is 15 GPT, even with a courthouse!! This will reduce (but not negate) both of them), and Versailles is nearby, and about 30 turns from completion. I have something like 20 seafood sources nearby (for mega Sids Sushi bonuses), 3 shrines, including the dominant shrine. The only thing I need to do, is raze the AP. Unfortunately, I think it is extremely far away... but I will try. [Edit]Its also my last noble game (so long as I don't lose ;) )

    @Dan. Compared to my power rating (Mine is 1.0, if they are twice as strong as me, they have 0.5, and if they are twice as weak as me, they have 2.0), the Ottomans score a mediocre 1.6, and Hattie scores a 5.0 . I don't think they are over the average, at all...

    @Justy: I am NOT travelling all the way to South Australia, just to capture a bunch of mediocre plains tiles, who's only redeeming characteristic is that it has stone (What I already have)... Not yet anyway...
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    What Dan is saying is that Fireaxis coded this retardedly poorly. He is saying that past a certain point, your power rating doesn't matter anymore.

    Wait, what? But it's true.

    Mehmed is considering his power + his vassal's power vs the AVERAGE power of the remaining AIs. This is, apparently, independent of his check of his power vs yours.

    If the AI has a higher power than the world average...well...it won't capitulate. Even if you capture 90% of its cities. Even if you have 5 times its power. It won't cap because it's coded moronically.

    I think one thing DAN is mistaken about though, is that having your OWN vassals just adds their power to yours. My experience suggests that your vassals count towards your power but don't bring the world average down. I suspect this to be the case because of my success vassaling a ton of civs in a 3rd playthrough try on G major 37, where I had several vassals capitulate at the point where their land/pop was nearly breaking free of me AFTER taking one that was pretty soft.

    Still, your problem is that mehmed is still too strong relative to the rest of the world. The game code reeks of stupidity in this regard, but that's how it is.
     
  13. Nestorius

    Nestorius Chieftain

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    On an aggressive AI Monarch game, I had settled a chokepoint that kept Memhed very small but with a super capital city. Upon obtaining feudalism, he offered to become my vassal state (not capitulating) and remained loyal and friendly for the rest of the game.
     
  14. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    Sorry TMIT, DAN is not mistaken ;), well that's just what I read out of the moronic code:
    The average power level is calculated using the individual powers of the living players without taking their master/vassal-status into consideration, so a weak 2-tundra-city-vassal WILL drag the average power level down and make capitulation of other players who have a vassal themselves problematic -- better kill those off completely.
    During the 2 tests (check vs aggressor, check vs average) the powers of a player's current vassals are only included for the player who is asked to surrender and not for the wannabe master. So if Rome were to become Spain's voluntary vassal and Spain asks the Ottomans (master of Egypt) to capitulate, then Mehmed checks his power + Hatty's power vs. Izzy's power alone (there are a couple of modifiers for war success, worst enemy and leader's personality). Rome's power would be irrelevant.

    A save would be nice to discuss things concretely.
     
  15. Jewman

    Jewman Chieftain

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    i dont see y u dont just destroy him. and wipe him off the earth.
    or am i missing a little detail here?
     
  16. GodBen

    GodBen Chieftain

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    Ireland. Did you not work that out?
    Something similar is happening in my current game. I have a large federation ten vassals; roughly 2/3 of the world is under my control and I'm getting more powerful every turn. Isabella was my next target as she had only two cities, Madrid is on-land and Seville is on a one-plot island off the coast. I captured Madrid, but she still wont capitulate. She wouldn't even trade a technology for peace either. The annoying thing is that I have no navy as it is a Pangaea map, so if I want to remove her from the game I have to build one.

    I could just make everyone else my vassal and win a domination victory, but instead I'm going to build a navy and sail it half way across the world just to teach her a lesson.
     
  17. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Chieftain

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    I will destroy him... just as soon as I take out the more pressing issue: Germany.

    Thankfully, I just remembered that both Arabia and Egypt both don't have any Confusist cities... but if they do, I am in for a world of hurt.

    I *could* kill Memhed. But I have bigger fish to fry...

    Save attached, for those people (or person ;) ) who wants to look at it.

    I will probably kill Egypt ASAP, just to rise the average strength up, a bit :D
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I just want to say that I have no idea why I put your name in all caps. Probably meant to do just the D and held shift down with a brain fart or something.

    Maybe it's just human error on my part - I had some weak sauce vassals but I guess I had two pretty good ones too (one voluntary). While not relevant directly having a vassal that's stronger than anyone else but me is probably a boon to that "average power" check, since they'll bring it UP.

    I guess a combination of having two legit vassals and the fact that my power was UTTERLY RIDICULOUS given it was a prince/quick g major (I must have had 5x the civ in question's power) probably just bumped the average high enough I guess.

    Still, the current system is terrible. It's not intuitive, it doesn't make sense, and without helpful forumers dragging through the code, it'd be hard to figure out how it works because the manual/civlopedia sure as !#@$ don't mention anything about "average surviving civ power checks" for vassalage. I understand something had to be done about rolling capitulations but this is NONSENSE. There's not much logic in having a civ being bent over for half its cities and having a fraction of its power left (and an even smaller fraction of the invader's power) feeling it's fine on its own.

    IMO even a required damage cap would be better, something like forcing a player to clear one of several conditions, such as sufficient positive k/d (would have to be pretty high), enough cities captured, enough power distance (3x or more would then be close to instant cap), or enough reduction to the AI as a % of original.

    Something like this would be MUCH better than "Oh, you have a 2 city vassal, and some idiot AI made a 3 city colony, so now on average we're stronger than the average civ. In fact, we're soooooo strong that we're ready to die, next turn, so no capitulation for you!). Ah well, it's not like much can be done about it without a patch, but it IS a bit frustrating ;).
     
  19. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    :D Ok - let's crunch some digits

    Current powers:
    You: 1,088,000 ( = "MasterPower" for negotiations)
    Mehmed: you/1.9 = ca. 573,000
    Hatty: Rival Worst = 211,000
    Rival Average: 552,142
    Total Average: "AveragePower" = (7*RivalAverage+You)/8 = 619,124
    Mehmed + Hatty: "Power_MehmedHatty" = ca. 784,000
    Mehmed's VassalPowerModifier (xml): 0
    Mehmed calculates his power for negotiations: "VassalPower" = (Power_Mehmed+Power_Hatty)*(140+VassalPowerModifier)/100 = 1,097,600 (the default power multiplier 140 is hard coded!)


    Check 1 - Mehmed vs Invader (=you):


    + Adjustment of MasterPower for war success (WS) ratio: MasterPower = MasterPower * [0 ... 2]
    An example: You conquer 5 cities (WS = 50) and kill 50 units (WS = 200) without losing a single unit (WS is at least 10 for everybody!)
    WS_Master = 250; WS_Vassal = 10 --> MasterPower = MasterPower * 2 * WS_Master / (WS_Master + WS_Vassal) = MasterPower * 500 / 260 = MasterPower * 1.92
    {If a 3rd player has a higher WS vs the target than you then the target gets the difference: WS_Vassal = WS_Vassal + (WS_3rdPlayer - WS_Master)}


    + Conditional adjustment of MasterPower for worst enemy: MasterPower = MasterPower * 3/4

    Power check: VassalPower > 2/3 * MasterPower ? --> "We are doing fine on our own!"

    Conclusion: If you redeclare on Mehmed you will be his Worst Enemy again (right now it's Augustus). Without consideration of any war successes the check goes:
    VassalPower = 1,097,600 vs. 2/3 * 3/4 * MasterPower = 1/2 * MasterPower = 544,000 --> DENIAL!
    But with a bit of war success decreasing Mehmed's and increasing your power you should not have any problem to pass this test.


    Check 2 - Mehmed vs Average:

    + Conditional adjustment of AveragePower for Mehmed being a LandTarget for other players (= additional threats "raise the average"; LandTarget = at least 1 city in other player's primary area + at least 8 landplots adjacent to other player's land territory anywhere on the map):
    - If Mehmed is a valid LandTarget for a 3rd player who's power is greater than Mehmed's power (vassal power included for both):
    AveragePower = AveragePower * 2 * Power_3rdPlayer / (Power_3rdPlayer + Power_MehmedHatty)
    - If Mehmed is a valid LandTarget for a 3rd player who is your ally in your war vs. Mehmed:
    AveragePower = AveragePower * (MasterPower + Power_MehmedHatty) / Power_MehmedHatty
    Power check: VassalPower > AveragePower ? --> "We are doing fine on our own!" (This is where they made capitulation easier in 3.17, check was VassalPower > 3/4 * AveragePower in 3.13.)

    Conclusion: Currently Mehmed is a valid LandTarget for Saladin and Darius, but both are weaker than MehmedHatty so the AveragePower would not change unless they join you in your war vs. Mehmed.
    VassalPower = 1,097,600 vs. AveragePower = 619,124 --> DENIAL!

    • Killing Hatty would increase the AveragePower to 677,427 and decrease Mehmed's VassalPower to 816,200 (remember the hard coded 140!) --> still not enough to pass the test.
    • Reducing Mehmed to Hatty's anemic power level but letting Hatty live would change AveragePower to 573,874 and Mehmed's VassalPower to 590,800 --> still no capitulation.
    • But the LandTarget factor is quite significant. Say you ask Darius to join your war, this will increase AveragePower to 1,478,316!!! --> capitulation.
    • Alternatively you could gift Konya to Augustus and thus turn Mehmed into a valid LandTarget for him. Since Augustus is stronger than MehmedHatty this would increase the AveragePower even without a war between them but only marginally to 639,338. Thus having a suitable war ally is the way to go here. Also note, that the power of this war ally is irrelevant, so a very weak ally should be optimal in order to avoid capitulation to the wrong player.

    All in all I got to agree with TMIT in that the way these mechanics are coded is very intuitive and well documented. :goodjob:


    Your game:
    I think you don't need to fear any German AP cheese right now, because as you mentioned, Saladin lacks a Confu city and he is running his favorite civic Theocracy - so no spread possible (the AI is not familiar with the Missionary gifting exploit).
    Ze Germans hev zeir hends full, ja! ;)

    Edit: just checked again and found that Mehmed is not a valid LandTarget for Saladin due to lacking 1 adjacent land plot.
     
  20. Joshua368

    Joshua368 Warmongering builder

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    While on this topic, I'm playing a game on a pangaea map and it's pretty much come down to two superpowers... I take up pretty much the entire western half of the continent with a few vassals along my borders, while the last two free AIs take up the entire eastern half in a permanent alliance with each other. (yeah I turned the option on)

    In the very likely event of an a massive world war soon, how exactly do you go about capitulating AIs in a permanent alliance? I'm guessing they can't be broken up without one dying, so do you capitulate them together? Is it more difficult them usual? Is it even possible? Obviously not something I've dealt with before.
     

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