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Merchant of Venice vs Austrian UA

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ahawk, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. Ulthwithian

    Ulthwithian King

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    phaethon: Luckily, Venice can purchase 'stuff' in puppetted cities, which means that they can purchase Happiness buildings in any puppets they take.
     
  2. Rooftrellen

    Rooftrellen King

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    Venice is just going to buy the happiness buildings in an instant, rather than hard build them.

    No one, no civ, is going to take a city, though force, UA, or UU, without being prepared to deal with it.

    One could claim the Zulu are going to have problems by being best able to take cities early (bronze working gives them their UU and UB), when they can't deal with the happiness problems, except people will plan and not over-conquer and the AI has too much happiness to care.

    Venice will be the same, just don't bite off more than you can chew and you can take cities, CS or otherwise, to your heart's content.
     
  3. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    The Zulu UU is a Pikeman replacement, not a Spearman replacement.
     
  4. phaethon16

    phaethon16 King

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    But the cost of buying happiness buildings is similar to the cost of annexing CS in general. So, the "free" nature of how Venice acquires CS isn't really free, because you have to purchase buildings to make those cities productive rather than just building them. My main point anyway was that Venice can't really go overboard with the Merchant of Venice thing. The same is true for Austria really.
     
  5. Ulthwithian

    Ulthwithian King

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    phaethon: Surely, but if Venice's economy is no better than Austria's, they're dying anyway... :p

    But yeah, using a MoV to take a CS, to me, is a desperation move that I never want to have to do.
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I wonder if it's possible to purchase a Courthouse in puppet cities (and, if so, whether that would do anything).
     
  7. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    No, because Courthhouses remove the "Occupation" status from a city. Which I think simply removes happiness on it's own (or provides happiness).
     
  8. Loucypher

    Loucypher King

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    The more I think of it, the more in my mind Venice relates to Austria as the Netherlands do to Arabia. They both do kind of the same thing, but in an easier and less powerful way.
    The Netherlands requires less upstart then Arabia to trade without huge happiness penalties. The downside being that once Arabia gets its bazaars online, the Dutch trades are less profitable then the Arabian ones. Much the same applies here - Venice has to pay 'less' to acquire a city state, but in turn they can still be liberated and can't produce to Venice's will except by direct payment, which Austria can ensure.
    This makes me like Venice even more, actually.
     
  9. boghog

    boghog Warlord

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    That still could mean several things:
    1. The MoV is used up purchasing CSs but does not have to spend :c5gold:.
    2. The MoV is not used up but has to spend :c5gold:.
    3. The MoV is used up AND has to spend :c5gold:.
    Depending on which it is it will really influence Venice's play style.
     
  10. kingchris20

    kingchris20 Wisdom Seeker

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    I may be way off base here, and probably completely insane to even think this, but looking at the civilopedia entry for the Merchant of Venice

    Now I'm paying attention to the last line of text. Is the Merchant of Venice only expended when used to acquire a City-State? Meaning if it conducts a trade mission, it wouldn't be expended?

    Of course that sounds incredibly wrong, and the part that says "Normal Great Merchant abilities" probably encompasses being expended when used to produce a manufactory or conduct trade missions as well.

    So 1. The team wrote the description to vaguely and the Merchant of Venice is expended when used an any way it can be used.

    or

    2. the Merchant of Venice is only expended when acquiring City-States, and can spam trade missions and manufactory anywhere.

    Now I am 99.99% leaning towards #1 being correct. but that .001% of me says maybe, given that Venice will have a limited number of tiles to work in the first place (and it wouldn't be to beneficial to have manufactories on every tile), that its not completely outside the realm of possibility. But of course spamming trade missions just doesn't make sense and is completely OP.

    Anyway 99.99% of me just says the civilopedia entry is too vague and should read "the Merchant of Venice is expended in any of these ways"
     
  11. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    The Great Merchant is expended as part of its normal abilities. The MoV description doesn't change that, so 1. is the right interpretation.
     
  12. Rynyl

    Rynyl Chieftain

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    What if Austria's UA is getting changed, just like France's? Austria seems like a Civ that would get a cultural or tourism bonus based on the new system.
     
  13. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    I'm interested in finding out what happens to the CS's military units when Venice acquires the CS. For Austria, it was patched in that the would-be cost to disband the units was added to the cost to purchase the CS. Will Venice get the units for free? Will they somehow be forced to pay for them when they expend the MoV? Will the units just cease to exist? The answers to these question could impact how Venice's UA compares to Austria's UA.
     
  14. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    My understanding of the language in the MoV description (can purchase city-states outright) is that it allows you to buy a CS with gold. I would imagine that the cost is similar to Austria's. The difference being that Austria can choose whether they want to annex or puppet, and Venice gets no choice.

    I could be wrong though. That's just how I interpret it.
     
  15. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I could see that. But that seems like it would be Very similar to Austria's. So unless Austria changed, I'd guess you spend the MV itself.
     
  16. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Definitely, yes. I think it burns the MoV as well. Buying a city-state would cost you gold + a MoV. That's how it looks to me.
     
  17. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I really hope not. That would add complication
    Get mv
    Move mv to cs
    Get money
    Buy

    As opposed to
    Hold ally
    Get money
    Buy

    Using 'just' a GP to take a city seems fine (and I hope that's what it is as it further differentiates from Austria)
     
  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I suspect that if the money is a problem for you, you may not be playing Venice right.
     
  19. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Its not the cost(balance) its the complication. You want a short list of requirements.
    MV in CS border
    +500+X gold in the bank adds more complication

    The limited supply of GP provides a natural balance (particularly if those CS can be liberated)
     
  20. asmartlittleman

    asmartlittleman Chieftain

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    The Merchant of Venice is a unique Great Merchant replacement. Aside from the normal Great Merchant abilities, the Merchant of Venice can acquire a City-State outright, bringing it under Venetian control as a puppet. The Merchant of Venice is expended when used in this way.
    Where does it say you need gold to puppet CS?
     

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