Mergeing mods into offical VP

[ElliotS]

I've noticed two mods that I think should be merged into the official build of VP, and want everyone's opinions.

The first mod is Community Patch Events Development. Rather than merging the whole mod (because it's still in some development) I'd like to see the events that are considered stable and fairly balanced moved from this mod to the main project. (And the same for other good event mods)

The reasoning is that most people play with events enabled yet few know about this mod. I think it would improve gameplay significantly for a large number of "plug and play" users that either don't want to bother with sub-mods or don't even know about them.

Additionally people who don't play with events either wouldn't care or might enjoy it afterwards. I've heard people claim they play without events because there's not enough events.

Poll: Should stable events be merged into the main VP mod?

The second mod is Flag Promotions v7. This is a mod that I've considered essential since I was told about it, and have told many people about it since.

What it does is display tiny icons with a unit's promotions above your and enemy units. It will tell you descriptions when you hover over them.

It is a great time-saver as you can easily figure out which swordsmen are your drill-swordsmen or which are medics and position everyone accordingly. It's also helpful to know which enemy units have cover without needing to mouse over every single one individually.

I think the lack of exposure on this mod is a real problem, and while it's stable there are a few promotions it doesn't recognize. I would love to see it added to the main mod in the interest of full compatibility and improving quality of life for users who haven't heard of it.

Because a picture is worth a thousand words I've uploaded a few screenshots to show it in action:
One, Two, Three.

Poll: Should Flag Promotions be added to the EUI version of main VP mod?

EDIT: I changed the polls a bit. Please vote again if you voted in the first half hour of this thread.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm going to nip this in the bud now before it grows. I have no interest in merging mods into VP that I cannot directly control the development/deployment of for one big reason: every new mod that I fold into the VP comes with the expectation that it will work, out-of-the-box, and - if it doesn't - I will fix it.

I took on C4DF solely because it was already part of Whoward's VMC - I did a ton of work fixing the bugs in it before Putmalk returned, redid the UI, and then left (and I continue to fix bugs with it and balance it). I took on More Luxuries, and have been tasked with keeping its lua compatible with everything in the VP (something I'm still dealing with). Everything else is content I either created, managed, co-designed, or inherited from other CPP contributors.

Case in point is EUI - that's been a PITA to keep compatible, and it means that I have to manage 7 different schemas for the UI (CP only, CBO only, CBO + No-EUI, CBO + EUI, 43 CP, 43 No-EUI, 43 EUI). Adding in more schemas (users that want Flag Promotions, users that don't) and/or more events is not something I intend to do.

These mods are perfectly functional as modmods, and should continue to be so. I'm happy to help promote them, but I don't intend to fold them any other mods into the main project.

G

 

[ElliotS]

I'm going to nip this in the bud now before it grows. I have no interest in merging mods into VP that I cannot directly control the development/deployment of for one big reason: every new mod that I fold into the VP comes with the expectation that it will work, out-of-the-box, and - if it doesn't - I will fix it.

I took on C4DF solely because it was already part of Whoward's VMC - I did a ton of work fixing the bugs in it before Putmalk returned, redid the UI, and then left (and I continue to fix bugs with it and balance it). I took on More Luxuries, and have been tasked with keeping its lua compatible with everything in the VP (something I'm still dealing with). Everything else is content I either created, managed, co-designed, or inherited from other CPP contributors.

Case in point is EUI - that's been a PITA to keep compatible, and it means that I have to manage 7 different schemas for the UI (CP only, CBO only, CBO + No-EUI, CBO + EUI, 43 CP, 43 No-EUI, 43 EUI). Adding in more schemas (users that want Flag Promotions, users that don't) and/or more events is not something I intend to do.

These mods are perfectly functional as modmods, and should continue to be so. I'm happy to help promote them, but I don't intend to fold them any other mods into the main project.

G

While I'd settle fora sticky thread on recommended mods, I recommended these two for a reason. For the events mod my point is that while I understand the original intention was for events to be a bare-bones framework, I feel that decision is hurting more people than it helps. (In this case at least. Also in the sense that more people that would want more events are missing out than people are 100% happy with current implementation.) I'm not asking you to add every event, but I'd like to see the more stable and balanced events added to this mod. AKA fill out some of the framework and make base VP events feel more 'complete'. People could still add and develop other event mods, but I don't think adding the more stable events would be that hard. (Maybe I'm wrong.)

Secondly for Flag Promotions. Couldn't you merge it into EUI? My point is just that I literally can't imagine who wants EUI but don't want Flag Promotions. This would mean that there's a bit of work adding it in, but it wouldn't add much or any upkeep to the project.

 

[ashendashin]

Secondly for Flag Promotions. Couldn't you merge it into EUI? My point is just that I literally can't imagine who wants EUI but don't want Flag Promotions. This would mean that there's a bit of work adding it in, but it wouldn't add much or any upkeep to the project.

Many mods with promotions don't support FP. People are having enough problems with compatibility as it is. Having something that conflicts with so many promotion related mods would cause nothing but problems. If you want the added convenience, just get the modmod. Works well enough as it is.

 

[ElliotS]

Many mods with promotions don't support FP. People are having enough problems with compatibility as it is. Having something that conflicts with so many promotion related mods would cause nothing but problems. If you want the added convenience, just get the modmod. Works well enough as it is.

That's a good point. I'll withdraw my suggestion for that part and ask for it to be recommended somewhere visible.

 

[Gazebo]

While I'd settle fora sticky thread on recommended mods, I recommended these two for a reason. For the events mod my point is that while I understand the original intention was for events to be a bare-bones framework, I feel that decision is hurting more people than it helps. (In this case at least. Also in the sense that more people that would want more events are missing out than people are 100% happy with current implementation.) I'm not asking you to add every event, but I'd like to see the more stable and balanced events added to this mod. AKA fill out some of the framework and make base VP events feel more 'complete'. People could still add and develop other event mods, but I don't think adding the more stable events would be that hard. (Maybe I'm wrong.)

The modmod structure, and the fact that you can create events in XML/SQL to add to the pool, means that I don't need to add them to it. Users can decide for themselves if they want more events or not.

G

 

[ashendashin]

The modmod structure, and the fact that you can create events in XML/SQL to add to the pool, means that I don't need to add them to it. Users can decide for themselves if they want more events or not.

G

Not very user friendly when you consider the average user. There's so much of VP that goes unnoticed that certain things could probably do with some touching up on visibility.

 

[Gazebo]

Not very user friendly when you consider the average user. There's so much of VP that goes unnoticed that certain things could probably do with some touching up on visibility.

If a user is industrious enough to install the VP, they're industrious enough to pick out some modmods.

G

 

[hokath]

To hijack the thread a little, you (OP) said "I'd like to see the events that are considered stable and fairly balanced moved from this mod to the main project". Are there events you don't consider stable?

And to Gazebo, I've been meaning to ask this for a while. Event probability took a large hit (to less likely) a while ago. I was wondering where you made that change? Was it directly in the sql table or did you change some control parameter? I for one think it could bare increasing a tad.

 

[ashendashin]

If a user is industrious enough to install the VP, they're industrious enough to pick out some modmods.

G

I was thinking about VP in general. All of the information is there and everything has been structured to be extremely user friendly, provided that you go out of your way to look through it. Kinda like Civ 6 with its mess of a civpedia, except the info can actually be found. That's probably a terrible comparison and I'm sorry to even bring it up, but a lack of visibility is definitely there.

 

[Gazebo]

To hijack the thread a little, you (OP) said "I'd like to see the events that are considered stable and fairly balanced moved from this mod to the main project". Are there events you don't consider stable?

And to Gazebo, I've been meaning to ask this for a while. Event probability took a large hit (to less likely) a while ago. I was wondering where you made that change? Was it directly in the sql table or did you change some control parameter? I for one think it could bare increasing a tad.

How severe of a hit? We reworked some things on the back end, but I don't feel like it is (overall) that much less frequent than before.

That's probably a terrible comparison and I'm sorry to even bring it up, but a lack of visibility is definitely there.

Every change is detailed in the civpedia. Don't blame me that the civpedia isn't a useful tutorial tool.

G

 

[ashendashin]

Every change is detailed in the civpedia. Don't blame me that the civpedia isn't a useful tutorial tool.

VP ingame is perfectly fine(despite some stupidity on my part). I'm trying to say that information on how everything works with the folder and compatibility structure isn't so easy to be aware of. I was specifically trying to reply to the modmod structure and the ease of getting VP to suit individual tastes. For example, editing city bombardment and difficulty settings is a quick thing to learn for someone that looks at all of VP, while people that are used to the vanilla CiV mess get out of their balance when they look at VP. Being able to grasp all of the changes and how easy it is to change them isn't the first thing on a new users mind.

 

[tu_79]

VP ingame is perfectly fine(despite some stupidity on my part). I'm trying to say that information on how everything works with the folder and compatibility structure isn't so easy to be aware of. I was specifically trying to reply to the modmod structure and the ease of getting VP to suit individual tastes. For example, editing city bombardment and difficulty settings is a quick thing to learn for someone that looks at all of VP, while people that are used to the vanilla CiV mess get out of their balance when they look at VP. Being able to grasp all of the changes and how easy it is to change them isn't the first thing on a new users mind.

I think you mean that some advising in the install sticky post would be welcomed. Some like
+ Encouraged mods:
+ Check other compatible modmods:
+ Don't like something? Try modding it yourself, it's not that difficult. Check 'here'.
isn't it?

 

[ElliotS]

Honestly I think you're underestimating the number of users that would benefit from rolling some events in. I know I've recommended VP to friends who can get it installed due to the easy installer, but have a hard time with extra mods.

Also I know a decent amount of people who play mod-packs, and the less mods the better there. I use mod-packs 90% of the time because I hate going through the mod menu. (and like achievements)

 

[Gazebo]

Honestly I think you're underestimating the number of users that would benefit from rolling some events in. I know I've recommended VP to friends who can get it installed due to the easy installer, but have a hard time with extra mods.

Also I know a decent amount of people who play mod-packs, and the less mods the better there. I use mod-packs 90% of the time because I hate going through the mod menu. (and like achievements)

You can continue to press and push and press on this, but I'm emphatically going to say 'no' every time. Nope. Not a mod under my direct maintenance = not a mod in the VP installer.

If someone would like to work up a well-formatted list of recommended mods I'm happy to add that to the 'how to install' page.

G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

While I too would be thrilled if more of my non-VP mods were to become a part of the standard VP installation pack, I very much understand Gazebo's position. VP in itself is a phenomenal thing and Gazebo and the team is continuing to perfect it. Their time&energy they can invest in Civ5 modding is limited and I very much prefer they use all of it on working on making the core VP as perfect as they deem it possible.

 

[Enginseer]

I'll have to say no. I remembered Gazebo took care of CBP's E&D before it was considered "glitchy" enough mainly due to people using too much dummy policies mods... but that's a different topic, you should have seen tons of E&D bugs that people were reporting. That was so much to handle for just a little "immersion" mod.

Getting on the same note here, Community Patch Events Development have over 100 events to manage not to mention that these events have a strong dependencies on the Vox Populi package, not just the Community Patch itself despite its name (I've tried to do so, but it's a ludicrous amount of work, I'm surprised hokath was sane enough to code most of the events). With these 100 events, you also have to consider "balance" something that Gazebo probably has to meet everyday on this sub-forum and sometime have to do a compromise between two compelling arguments. CPED doesn't do that because it's a community-made event addition. It wasn't made based on balance and gameplay. It was made for immersion with your civilization and roleplaying with them as you watch your civilization stand the test of time. (also because CPED is now a one-man team instead of a three-man, I usually have priority over things said now)

 

[Infixo]

Hi, I'm fairly new here but this allows me to see things from a different perspective than you, the veterans. Here are my two cents.
1st cent I believe that we want to simply have more content in the game, playable in various configurations. This keeps the game interesting and fresh and you always want to come back to try out something new. That's basically the idea behind mods and modding in general. So, I would assume that now VP is a "base game version" and the goal should be to make as many mods compatible with VP and with each other as possible. That way there could be be some kind of "extended VP" i.e. VP and several cooperating mods.
2nd cent It would be much, much easier for everyone trying to make a mod compatible with VP to have some kind of design rules that are behind VP. They are probably scattered all around hundreds of posts and in the minds of the people like you but that's of course not the way to go. If such rules existed then a) mods' authors could try to make them compatible with VP b) would be much easier to create any "compatibility mod" and c) this could be some kind of semi-objective test if a mod can make into a mods compatible-with-VP-list. Actually, you could differentiate between mods that are only technically compatible (it loads and there's no CTD) and those that are in-line with VP rules and philosophy.

 

[tu_79]

Hi, I'm fairly new here but this allows me to see things from a different perspective than you, the veterans. Here are my two cents.
1st cent I believe that we want to simply have more content in the game, playable in various configurations. This keeps the game interesting and fresh and you always want to come back to try out something new. That's basically the idea behind mods and modding in general. So, I would assume that now VP is a "base game version" and the goal should be to make as many mods compatible with VP and with each other as possible. That way there could be be some kind of "extended VP" i.e. VP and several cooperating mods.
2nd cent It would be much, much easier for everyone trying to make a mod compatible with VP to have some kind of design rules that are behind VP. They are probably scattered all around hundreds of posts and in the minds of the people like you but that's of course not the way to go. If such rules existed then a) mods' authors could try to make them compatible with VP b) would be much easier to create any "compatibility mod" and c) this could be some kind of semi-objective test if a mod can make into a mods compatible-with-VP-list. Actually, you could differentiate between mods that are only technically compatible (it loads and there's no CTD) and those that are in-line with VP rules and philosophy.

Well, that's modpacks for you! Problem with modpacks is that if you miss one modmod in your modpack, you'll need to go through the MOD menú again. I'm fine with a modpack with FlagPromotion, and don't mind if it comes with extra events since you can set them off when setting up a new game. But then I want to try Civ6 Additions... Modpacks also come later, as they are made and shared by players, not developers. There's a guide on how to made a modpack yourself if you are willing to invest some time.

 

[Infixo]

Modpacks are an answer to cent no 1, sure, but first mods in the modpack need to work together That's why cent no 2 is important.