Look, there's really no point in debating if you continue to talk about things that nobody ever said, and couple this with personal insults.
My point was (and is) that analyses even on non-optimal samples can be useful. I do think that analyses like Zechnophobe's can be useful, and imho he arrives at a valid conclusion about the observed population.
Skepticism is welcome (at least for me
), and if you see flaws in his conclusion or method or hypotheses, then I encourage you to bring them forward (though I'd appreciate a less offensive manner in doing so). Constructive criticism usually helps to gather knowledge. What I was (and am) objecting to is the notion of sweeping away the whole analysis as worthless due to being "non-scientific", for the reasons I already laid out. If you see better means of gathering the respective data, then by all means suggest them, I'm sure that Zechnophobe would be interested in them too.
But I'm really not interested in any exchange of ad hominems, so I don't see much merit in continuing this part of the discussion.
Nice cop-out, but I'm not done yet, and this time I brought evidence:
I don't think those polls have anything to do with how popular the game is. "Popular" doesn't mean "good". It just means a lot of people are following it. So sure it's going to be very popular in a Civ fansite like this.
Steam Top Ten Most Played Games:
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
Civ 5 has maintained the top 10 since release. Roughly a month, so I would say it's pretty popular. This has nothing to do about whether people are happy with it or not. A lot of people might just be playing to finish the achievements before moving on or they are using tons of mods.
I was thinking this thread would be about sales.
Anyone know how much Civ5 is selling? I'm curious if making it more "accessible" to average gamers has worked for them.
If they don't like it, why is it so popular still?
IIRC steam numbers show the game being played by a lot of players, probably duo to good sales, I believe.
Apply whatever word you wish. Popularity reflects consensus of a population. Whether or not that consensus is 'how much they buy' 'how much they play' or 'how much they enjoy' it is still an issue of popularity.
I am showing results from multiple polls that are all a little different in the particular consensus they are trying to represent, so no one word will truly suffice. This is why I summed up with the word 'approval'.
Look at all this and tell me there isn't a significant muddying of the line between CivFanatics users and the general populace in your discussion. If there isn't, as you claim and fail to back up, then why are Steam stats relevant? They aren't.
So, maybe this is a strawman as well, but I conclude from your post that none of us is entitled to drawing any conclusions unless it is supported by the most impeccable logic and airtight set of qualifications? Not gonna happen.
It happens all the time, you know, in better sciences no less. It is true that these fields are not precise sciences like physics or mathematics, but if we do not apply basic principles of logic and reasoning to the broader fields of psychology, sociology, and related fields thereof (i.e. marketing and analysis of any commodity's popularity) then no conclusions gathered can be scientifically legitimate.
Zeiter said:
There is such a thing in the world as "folk wisdom."
Oh boy, here we go.
Zeiter said:
Maybe scientific types like to condescend and make fun of it, but that is how many human beings work.
Any examination of human behavior should show you that humans
are not logical! "Folk wisdom," as it were, is rarely scientific and only sparsely reliable. Oh yes, there are instances of some ancient Chinese remedy being beneficial to a man with a sore throat, but there are even
more instances of old wisdom being cast out in light of better knowledge. For instance: tobacco was thought of by the Aztec to be beneficial to one's health. Hundreds of years later, through the use of science (supported by proper scientific procedures and a little thing called the scientific method) we find this is patently untrue. In fact, tobacco is hazardous to one's health - and greatly so!
I understand it is appealing and very proanthropic to believe that our "folk wisdom" is capable of defying appearance to reach some higher level of understanding, but in terms of how the world "actually" works (something you lot seem to believe I have little perspective of) then it is very much worth pointing out that no great scientific advancement or profound theory was every truly great without being heavily substantiated with evidence - evidence derived from proper sampling, proper reasoning, and reproducible results.
This is why the stipulation that this data is very central to CivFanatics is useful - nay, necessary. Without that stipulation, you will find that when you compare data from other websites and
Steam (for goodness' sake, the cognitive dissonance here astounds me) there is going to be some disagreement between the conclusion and the data. Hell, there's going to be some disagreement between your data sets. It is important to note this.
Zeiter said:
Many humans draw inferences, sometimes too broad and unfounded, but it works often enough to get most people through life and arrived at conclusions that have some practical value.
You know what conclusions have the
most practical value? Not "smoke tobacco, it's good for you," and that's for damn sure. No, conclusions that have practical value have a basis grounded in science. Who, after all, are those whose business it is to provide practical conclusions to society? Engineers. And no engineer ever got anywhere using "folk knowledge" and a healthy disregard for mathematics and reason.
Zeiter said:
I believe that's what the OP was trying to do here. Perhaps the OP's forum post is not fit to be published in a scientific journal, but I find it productive enough. One just has to be able to read between the lines a bit. Not everything that humans communicate is made explicit. I don't want to be a flamer here, but your post reminds me, to be honest, of how I often get annoyed when dealing with autistic individuals (in high school I tutored an autistic classmate, and this girl I used to go out with had an autistic brother, so I am by no means an expert, but not totally ignorant about it either). I know that we are supposed to feel all sympathetic for people with autism, but it sure can get exasperating after a while to deal with individuals who don't have "normal" (as in common) human social skills and who can't read between the lines and who have to have everything spelled out explicitly and in a way that is exactly correct, like a computer program. This is the feeling I get from your post. And it makes it feel like a chore for me to contribute to this conversation, because I have to make sure to qualify every little assertion so that I won't get my comments dismissed. To clarify, I'm not saying that I know that you are necessarily autistic, but merely that your discourse annoys me in the same way as my past interactions with autistic kids has. Sorry if this is flaming.
I'm sorry that scientific discourse annoys you. Here, maybe
this will whet your beak.
I would also caution trying to play psychologist over the internet when your knowledge of the field (and the related disorder - classy move, by the way, mocking autistics) is rudimentary at best.
Zeiter said:
Thanks for your opinion! In some ways, I feel similarly - but I see the changes made to the system as having a lot of potential. I had a few problems with Civ IV but overall saw it as a solid game and I personally am curious to see how Civ V develops. Right now, IMO, it's a lot too buggy to play quite well - I was about 400 turns in as Washington of America before my game would refuse to go past a certain turn. Kind of reminds me of vanilla Civ 4. But I'm getting off topic, excuse me.