Metal Casting before Education, Internal trade routes changing the game?

[Grubsnik]

The basic premise is simple, does it make sense to prioritize Metal Casting after Philosophy, so you can get workshops up and running early, while snagging Colossus on the way?

In most of my games I tend to be playing catch-up with infrastructure, and it got me thinking that if your terrain is hammerlight (and water-heavy), going MC before Education may be a valuable detour. It's worth mentioning that I only play around King difficulty, so regular trade routes rarely provide much in the way of science, since I'll be ahead of the other civs techwise.

Anyhow, just wanted to throw the idea out here and see what people thought of it?

 

[Blitz Spearman]

The problem is that food routes outclass hammer routes so bad... Even after getting Workshops, I don't change internal routes from food to hammers until I have to hard build some late game wonder. The only reason I can see to rush Colossus + Metal Casting is if you want to research Physics as well and temporarily use hammer routes just to hard build Notre Dame. But this seems like a giant effort, not sure if is even possible, as you have to hard build the Workshops beforehand.

 

[Resipsa]

You can divert from Philosophy and Education beelines some on deity but its more difficult than just beelining your science techs and calling it a day.

 

[budweiser]

Yes, I did this early in BNW with good results. Libraries to MC is good too if you are going wide.

 

[kb27787]

MC is not much of a detour IMO... (and then switch to education while the workshops are still building)
And when the universities are building, switch to Machinery for ironworks... (or here some people wish to beeline Acoustics for Sistine)
Works pretty well and when the first WC world fair comes up your cap has ironworks and is ready (with good terrain your PT will be done before world fair thanks to the improved production)

 

[Tabarnak]

I recently thought about this. The delay of Education will always be a problem. But fast workshops can surely have something interesting to offer especially if you can grab the Colossus among the way.

It's just that an education beeline is pretty powerful for fastest time finishes but i can see this approach interesting in mp games where Machinery rules for a long period of time with warmongers around(hence the hammer caravans) and the need of a ton of Xbows.

Perfectly makes sense even if few players do it(because they play deity or go for fast times).

 

[Blitz Spearman]

Defending yourself from warmongers is actually a good reason. I recently lost an Immortal game by losing my capital (been a looong time since that happened) while trying to test the new Germany. Beelined Education and, as the new UB can be just as good as a Workshop, I went straight for Banking.

A couple turns later there was an Ottoman army of about 7-8 Longswords and 4-5 Trebuchets entering Berlin and there was nothing I could do with my 6 CBs and 2 Knights... (Also, the AI was really smart with using the Longswords' Zone of Control to protect the Trebs from my Knights. Kudos to the patch, maybe?)

 

[Gus_Smedstad]

I've been going Metal Casting primarily for an early Great Engineer. Of course, I can only win reliably on King, so what do I know?

 

[EEE_BOY]

Going MC before education makes sense for non-tradition play because it opens engineering for the aqueduct.

For tradition, early Civil service food bonus is more important than a few hammer boost from workshop

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Defending yourself from warmongers is actually a good reason. I recently lost an Immortal game by losing my capital (been a looong time since that happened) while trying to test the new Germany.

Well, as i posted in another thread, my experience with the new patch is that early wars are now more commons (less than G&K days where just about every AI was a psychopathic serial killer) and also AIs tend to send better mix of units, so i expect to see changes in startegies with more emphasis on defense (and a bunch of "wtf, tha game haz become impossable" threads from people trying to follow old stategies without adapting )

 

[Acken]

You usually get workshop just after universities. Getting them just before would mean that you trade some science for some hammer.
This may free up around 2 to 3 turns of production at the loss of a handful of turns with universities (less science).

Can see situations where its okay, especially if you also want engineering for aqueducts.

 

[Vohbo]

I think it depends, but researching one more tech before education won't be much of a loss as it also means your cities will grow in the meanwhile (which you need to slot universities) and you'll build the univs 1-2 turns faster. The overall loss in science is limited, so depending on what you need to research before, this can be better/just as good.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

You don't always hard build Unis and if you are playing tall, you sometimes have enough population to slot them as soon as you buy them, that is the turn you get edu. So yep, it depends a lot.

 

[Light Cleric]

I've found it most effective to go Education first -> buy the University in the capital + run the slots. I used to be loathe to do this, but getting the Uni, say, 10 turns earlier not only means 10 more turns of that extra science(meaning you can go back to Metal Casting faster) but also you immediately accumulate Great Scientist points. I still don't like buying Unis in my other cities, though. You might be able to get away with going down to Metal Casting -> Workshop and then go back to Unis in those cities. Also you should have 4-5 trade routes by then so depending on the size of your empire you can send food routes and a production route to a bad production city(The extra food to work Hill tiles doesn't work if there's no Hill tiles to start with ).

 

[Danei]

I'm an Emperor level player, so I can't speak for higher difficulties, but there are some situations where I would do (and have done) this. Usually several things have to be true, like I went liberty + I'm nearing my happiness cap + I intend to use the increased production for some high-value goal (like taking an AI's wonder-filled city). It's worked pretty well for me, but I can't say if it would have been better or just as good to do something else.

As a general note, keeping up with science is about as important as everyone says it is, but with careful diplomacy and various BNW changes to the way various VCs work, I've found that (on Emperor and lower, at least), I can get away with being a bit behind most/all game and still win. Probably my score sucks, though.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Well, probably not your score, but your finishing turn counter.

Every VC (less for Domination unless you are going for a late game Autocracy domination) needs some science level before you can win (mhh, Piety Culture is the only real exception, but is only really possible in some rare cases). Science of course needs science, Culture needs at least Hotels (refrigeration) and most of the time Internet. Diplo needs any atomic era (or is it information) World Congress (2 civs must be atomic then). The faster you get there, the faster you win, and most people try to get the fastest victory (dare i say most people are a little obsessed with fast victory )

If you don't mind finishing 10 turns later, probably it won't make much of a difference whether you delay Education by one tech.

 

[budweiser]

Going MC before education makes sense for non-tradition play because it opens engineering for the aqueduct.

For tradition, early Civil service food bonus is more important than a few hammer boost from workshop

What if you are coastal and or have no river?

 

[Deau]

The basic premise is simple, does it make sense to prioritize Metal Casting after Philosophy, so you can get workshops up and running early, while snagging Colossus on the way?

In most of my games I tend to be playing catch-up with infrastructure, and it got me thinking that if your terrain is hammerlight (and water-heavy), going MC before Education may be a valuable detour. It's worth mentioning that I only play around King difficulty, so regular trade routes rarely provide much in the way of science, since I'll be ahead of the other civs techwise.

Anyhow, just wanted to throw the idea out here and see what people thought of it?

If you play coastal, the detour for Colossus is possibly worth it. Turning food routes into hammer routes this early in the game is not worth it though. Typically, it's shortly into renaissance that you have grown enough that food trade routes become less and less strong and that you can slowly reverse engineer and send many hammer routes towards your cap to spam wonders. I.e. you can go for MC after education or after entering renaissance if it will let you get a SP into rationalism earlier and get the most out of both.

 

[EEE_BOY]

What if you are coastal and or have no river?

Then optics --> compass makes more sense for food from sea food resouces and further (better) international trade routes.

Workshop for hammer transfer just doesn't seem to be good choice. Food>hammer

 

[justanotherturn]

I'm not sure i can write down my idea in a simple way:

Food>hammer

I think this is almost always true.

the game where hammer for a specific mid game goal is needed (army / wonder / anything...) is not the "standard" game.

But sometime, for reason X or Y it's better, and you need to know it and use it to your advantage especially if your play-style tend to put you in situation where it's useful.