futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
This is something that has been percolating in my head for a couple years now. Over the years I have mostly played standard continents maps on normal speed. Last few years have been on Emperor. The reason I've been thinking about this is that -- assuming the same leader -- there are some maps I can win handily and some maps that I fail at miserably. Now, all things being equal -- player, leader, difficulty level and other settings -- what creates these swings from winning easily to failing miserably? I'm a long-time player well versed in a variety of playstyles and strategies/openings, although I tend toward favouring domination victory conditions. In the last few years, I have tended toward using cottages frequently but am comfortable running specialists and taking other approaches when the map calls for it.
Anyway -- I've arrived at an idea of metavariables and their relationship to the odds of winning a map. This is surely based on many threads I've read here over the decade+ I've frequented this site, so I don't claim any originality here, although I do wonder if this idea has been put forward in this way before (If so, I'd be interested to read the threads).
I'm using the term metavariables to differentiate these more global factors from basic variables like number of neighbours, amount of food, number of cities available without war, etc. etc. Basically, metavariables would be clusters of these variables, but very specific clusters. Let me give you the main examples I'm thinking of:
1) Quality of Land (QoL). Without a doubt, I would say this is the strongest predictor of whether or not I am winning or not. If I'm nestled in the greenbelt (equator) with lots of snaky rivers, then I feel good about my chances of winning. If I'm coastal with lots of water and lots of desert and/or tundra nearby, I feel good about my chances of losing.
I would be interested in exploring possible formulae for describing this metavariable. I think it would include components such as:
Quality of Capital Land (QoCL). How much food? How much production? How much commerce? How many forests? How many resources? This could be narrowed down even further to how much of each of these things in the 4-5 best tiles (assuming happy cap of 5 early on)? So, you could have Quality of Capital Land best 5 tiles (QoCL5) and QoCL overall. Strong capital? I like my odds. Weak capital? Tougher game.
However, the capital isn't the be all end all. I've had times where I've had a food lite but production decent capital and wonderful surrounding terrain, so I just rexed into the rest of the land and smooth sailing. So, next would be:
Quality of Surrounding Land (QoSL). I just played a start that got me thinking about this whole metavariable idea again. I had a coastal start surrounded by desert. Decent enough capital but crap surrounding land. Issy was to my south sitting in the green belt and outgrew me in economy and military easy while I was beating down Joao to secure my marginal peninsula. Whether or not I should have managed diplo with Joao better or not early and hit Issy early is for later in this thread, but if I just consider my surrounding land, Joao's surrounding land, and Issy's wonderful surrounding land (she had lots of green, lots of rivers, multiple gold pits, lots of surplus food, and lots of wine and other resources), I would be betting on Issy hands down at the outset if I was a neutral observer with perfect information.
I'm wondering what might count as "surrounding" land. Maybe 10 tiles in every direction, not including the capital BFC? More? Less?
Basically, if I can get myself into 8-15 cities with a nice economy by 1500 AD, I like my chances of massing rifles and clearing my continent. If I've got the larger of the two continents, I feel really good about winning the game by domination or space in particular.
From there, how to score the land. 0 for desert/mountain, 1 for ocean and other marginal tiles, move up to something like 3 or 4 for grassland adding +1 for river and -1 if jungle on it, more still for resources. I'd be interested in an exploration of the specifics here, but it is the general concept that really makes me mull this.
2) Competition for Land (CfL). This would be a blend of things like #/type/proximity of neighbours, as well as availability/type/proximity of strategic resources and available production. If I've got copper in my capital BFC and Gandhi on my doorstep with no strategic resources and a juicy capital, well that game is looking pretty much done before it started. However, if I have no copper or horses and Shaka building up strength a bit of a ways away from me, or Alex or Monty on my doorstep, then I don't care how lush my surrounding land is, I'm in for a dogfight that will grind my economy to a halt at best and annihilation at worst. Interestingly enough, I would also say that having NO neighbours -- i.e., isolated start -- would be a negative here. So, maybe CfL isn't the best descriptor for this metavariable. In other words, this would also take into account trade partners. If I've got nobody to help me keep on pace with tech into the renaissance relative to the other continent, then I don't like my chances, especially if there's a lovefest between financial civs on the other continent.
Possible subvariables here would be things like:
1) # of neighbours
2) Disposition of neighbours
3) Distance of neighbours
4) Strategic resources (type/location/me vs. neighbours/etc.)
5) Trade opportunities (Toku vs. Mansa anyone?)
6) etc.
Again, happy to hammer out the specifics, but it is the general concept here that I find interesting.
Anyway, those are the two main metavariables that I would say predict my outcomes. If QoL and CfL are favourable, good to go. If they are unfavourable, likely to lose. Or, to put it another way, these are the factors that heavily modify difficulty level -- all other things being equal.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this and other metavariables you think might be important for influencing the outcomes of your games.
Cheers
Anyway -- I've arrived at an idea of metavariables and their relationship to the odds of winning a map. This is surely based on many threads I've read here over the decade+ I've frequented this site, so I don't claim any originality here, although I do wonder if this idea has been put forward in this way before (If so, I'd be interested to read the threads).
I'm using the term metavariables to differentiate these more global factors from basic variables like number of neighbours, amount of food, number of cities available without war, etc. etc. Basically, metavariables would be clusters of these variables, but very specific clusters. Let me give you the main examples I'm thinking of:
1) Quality of Land (QoL). Without a doubt, I would say this is the strongest predictor of whether or not I am winning or not. If I'm nestled in the greenbelt (equator) with lots of snaky rivers, then I feel good about my chances of winning. If I'm coastal with lots of water and lots of desert and/or tundra nearby, I feel good about my chances of losing.
I would be interested in exploring possible formulae for describing this metavariable. I think it would include components such as:
Quality of Capital Land (QoCL). How much food? How much production? How much commerce? How many forests? How many resources? This could be narrowed down even further to how much of each of these things in the 4-5 best tiles (assuming happy cap of 5 early on)? So, you could have Quality of Capital Land best 5 tiles (QoCL5) and QoCL overall. Strong capital? I like my odds. Weak capital? Tougher game.
However, the capital isn't the be all end all. I've had times where I've had a food lite but production decent capital and wonderful surrounding terrain, so I just rexed into the rest of the land and smooth sailing. So, next would be:
Quality of Surrounding Land (QoSL). I just played a start that got me thinking about this whole metavariable idea again. I had a coastal start surrounded by desert. Decent enough capital but crap surrounding land. Issy was to my south sitting in the green belt and outgrew me in economy and military easy while I was beating down Joao to secure my marginal peninsula. Whether or not I should have managed diplo with Joao better or not early and hit Issy early is for later in this thread, but if I just consider my surrounding land, Joao's surrounding land, and Issy's wonderful surrounding land (she had lots of green, lots of rivers, multiple gold pits, lots of surplus food, and lots of wine and other resources), I would be betting on Issy hands down at the outset if I was a neutral observer with perfect information.
I'm wondering what might count as "surrounding" land. Maybe 10 tiles in every direction, not including the capital BFC? More? Less?
Basically, if I can get myself into 8-15 cities with a nice economy by 1500 AD, I like my chances of massing rifles and clearing my continent. If I've got the larger of the two continents, I feel really good about winning the game by domination or space in particular.
From there, how to score the land. 0 for desert/mountain, 1 for ocean and other marginal tiles, move up to something like 3 or 4 for grassland adding +1 for river and -1 if jungle on it, more still for resources. I'd be interested in an exploration of the specifics here, but it is the general concept that really makes me mull this.
2) Competition for Land (CfL). This would be a blend of things like #/type/proximity of neighbours, as well as availability/type/proximity of strategic resources and available production. If I've got copper in my capital BFC and Gandhi on my doorstep with no strategic resources and a juicy capital, well that game is looking pretty much done before it started. However, if I have no copper or horses and Shaka building up strength a bit of a ways away from me, or Alex or Monty on my doorstep, then I don't care how lush my surrounding land is, I'm in for a dogfight that will grind my economy to a halt at best and annihilation at worst. Interestingly enough, I would also say that having NO neighbours -- i.e., isolated start -- would be a negative here. So, maybe CfL isn't the best descriptor for this metavariable. In other words, this would also take into account trade partners. If I've got nobody to help me keep on pace with tech into the renaissance relative to the other continent, then I don't like my chances, especially if there's a lovefest between financial civs on the other continent.
Possible subvariables here would be things like:
1) # of neighbours
2) Disposition of neighbours
3) Distance of neighbours
4) Strategic resources (type/location/me vs. neighbours/etc.)
5) Trade opportunities (Toku vs. Mansa anyone?)
6) etc.
Again, happy to hammer out the specifics, but it is the general concept here that I find interesting.
Anyway, those are the two main metavariables that I would say predict my outcomes. If QoL and CfL are favourable, good to go. If they are unfavourable, likely to lose. Or, to put it another way, these are the factors that heavily modify difficulty level -- all other things being equal.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this and other metavariables you think might be important for influencing the outcomes of your games.
Cheers