MIA Grand Strategy Meeting !

What time should we meet? (chose as many as work for you)


  • Total voters
    2
1. Elimination/Conquest ... always a threat. I disagree. For KISS/Nuts to eliminate us at this point, they'd need a tech edge. We already have rails (neither of them do), and we're about to get factories. They won't have a tech edge for the near future.

2. Domination ... now we control 1 continent it is not possible. Unless they invade and whittle us back to 1/2 our present size, and then successfully settle and defend that territory, Domination is not possible. Population-wize, though, DNUTs could succeed.

3. Cultural ... We check each turn, but we can out build easily. Ordinarily, I would agree with this. But when Dear Leader Chamnix states that DNUTs could accumulate 1000 cpt -:eek:- I'm less confident.

4. Space Race ... possible. I think this is one of the easiest ones to guard against. They'd need to keep very close to us in tech, and have some massive prebuilds in hand for each SS part. Investigating a city or two every few turns should be enough to see that one coming. Also, it's a very long way off.
5. Wonder Victory ... We check regularly, but we can outbuild easily. I think this one is the 20k single city cultural victory. For the same reasons we ruled out going down this path, I think it would be relatively easy for us to counter it if DNUTs or KISS try. Again, investigating a city here and there will provide us with the heads-up. Of course, we'll need bombers to counter it :mischief:
6. VP ... We check and report regulary. There's not a threshold VP for a victory, is there? I thought VP's were just to determine a running score, and alternately to declare a victor if the game runs to 2050AD. We aren't going to let the game go that long, so this is not a viable way for DNUTs or KISS to win.

Really, their only options are pretty long-term. Go for an 80k (thanks for explaining, Chamnix), go for a 20k, or slog it out for a Domination. Domination may actually look attractive to DNUTs because of their agricultural + Pyramids situation.

All in all, the game looks bleak from their side of the water. But I think I'd like to read more about pulling a cultural victory out of a game this late, to see if that's really feasible for DNUTs.
 
What about Diplomatic victory? Are we asuuming the game will be over before the Nutters can build the UN and buy the Gall's vote? Or do we have plans to build the UN?
 
The two top teams will be up for vote and naturally they will vote for each other, and thus KISS will either abstain, or more likely vote for Dnuts. I would hate to see this game get into the Modern Age.
 
I think we have to plan to build the UN. Any vote held will be between MIA and Dnuts, and KISS might cast the deciding vote for Dnuts - we have to guarantee that no vote is held.

It is way too late for anyone to go for a 20K cultural victory - there just isn't time left in the game to try to amass that much culture in one city.

As far as how the Nuts can try to get to 80K culture, it works something like this:

1. Found 100 or so towns (MIA will have 120+, so 100 is definitely realistic for the space the Dnuts have).
2. Switch to Communism.
3. Every town with at least 4 citizens pop-rushes a temple. Assuming 100 towns, Dnuts culture per turn increases by 200 cpt.
4. In about 6 turns, every town grows back to size 4 (thanks to agricultural plus Pyramids plus railed irrigated grass) and probably has 20 shields in the bin (thanks to Communism). Every town pop-rushes a library. Dnuts culture increases by another 300 cpt.

Cathedrals and universities obviously take a little longer (but also provide more culture), but you get the idea. SGOTM 6 (I think) was a game played for 100K with the Celts. Although the Dnuts will be hurt by having no cheap cultural buildings and they also probably don't have enough fully improved tiles yet, you can get an idea how fast cpt can increase once you set your mind to it by checking out those threads.
 
A defeat at the hands of the UN is a non-issue to me.
Dnuts and KISS will need to amass ¾ of the population – a very difficult proposition with only ½ of the land mass! Not only are we currently ahead in population, but we can easily monitor where the Nut population is at and watch for a rapid build-up. Even if they do use military police and their pyramids to bulk the population in fringe towns – we'll have bombers for MANY MANY years before the UN is even available. Simple bombing of their irrigation will stop a bid to out-populate us.

No – I think the UN is the least of our worries.

I believe our best plan remains to out grow, out develop, and out tech our rivals. Then we can pound them with our bombers, pillage with our marines, and otherwise make life difficult till we launch a spaceship or just crush them with Modern Armor.
 
General_W said:
Dnuts and KISS will need to amass ¾ of the population

Methinks the General has been playing too much Civ 4 again... in Civ 3, it is 1 vote per civ regardless of population.
 
You're kidding me! :blush:

That's lame!

So is 2/3 enough to win?
 
Commies!!

Well then - I guess we still have time to plan our response to it.
If we're far enough ahead... then we can take a wonder-denial approach.

If we're not getting far enough ahead... then yeah, we're going to have to wipe someone out.
 
News Flash ... Nuts establish Embassy !!!

We are now open to peaking and also to technology theft !!!

Should we declare ?!!!

or since stealing can happen anyway ... let them waste cash on spying on us ... and getting jealous ;)
 
We can use it for our advantage. Since we know they do not have rails we can leave any units out side of cities thus they will not know exactly what are our positions and troops are, so they can think that we are not as strong as we really are. :D
 
I still don't think we should declare war - we have a peace treaty in place for 14 more turns, and we still can't prove they broke it. Besides, stealing techs through an embassy is not exactly a slam dunk. From Oystein's article:

Chance of succeeding in %:
Immediate Carefully Safely
Embassy 32 44 52

The stealing costs I think are about

Immediate - 900
Carefully - 1350
Safely - 1800

So taking the cost divided by the probabiliity of success, we get the expected cost of stealing a tech to be:

Immediately - 2813
Carefully - 3068
Safely - 3462

Researching Industrialization would only be 2914 beakers for the Dnuts. The general equivalency of 1 gold = 1 beaker certainly doesn't hold anymore, but we can't know which direction it is off in. For us, 1 beaker is worth significantly less than 1 gold because we have more libraries than markets, more universities than banks, 1 (soon to be two) extra research wonder, and scientists are 50% more effective than taxmen.

We don't know how many libraries/universities/banks/marketplaces they have built, but based on the fact that they researched the final MA tech in 4 turns and Nationalism in 5 turns (and maybe Steam Power in 4, or they might have just stolen that), it seems they have to be somewhat science-heavy as well, and scientists are always better than taxmen.

If we were in their position, it would likely be cheaper for us to research than to steal. I think they will try to steal, just because at this point they have to roll the dice - they will always be behind if they research themselves, but I don't think stealing is game-breaking enough that it is worth discarding our deal over.

The only thing that makes me nervous is that it seems I have had more success stealing techs than Oystein's numbers would indicate. Of course, that is probably just my memory playing tricks on me - if his numbers were off significantly, I'm sure someone would have noticed by now.
 
I'm not sure what you mean - with a neutral RNG, stealing techs is essentially the same cost as self-research right now for the Nuts. Stealing allows them the possibility of getting more than 1 tech every 4 turns, but also means they might not get any techs anytime soon.

Declaring war means:

1. MIA broke the deal - probably justifiably but maybe not.
2. Dnuts get war happiness - maybe not a large advantage but an unambiguous advantage.
3. MIA might lose Eureka Stockade a little sooner.

Is there a different choice I'm missing?
 
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