Michael Moore's letter to George W. Bush

mrog

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Hi all,

This might be old news to the U.S citizens out there, but I recently heard of an open letter to George W. Bush from Michael Moore (of The Awfull truth" fame).

I don't know enough about the issues concerned to comment, but I found it interesting and am hoping that others who know more about it might comment.

The letter can be found at:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/2002_0129.html

Thanks
 
The United States is an interesting country.One need not look further than their past half dozen or so Presidents.

No shocker than greed is alive and well in the US and corruption still rears its ugly head.Beats living next to Iraq though :D

Dubya should be in more hot water than he is.Maybe more will come his way about this.I don't know,I mean in Canada,this guy couldn't get job managing a 7/11,let alone a nation.So,that leaves him 1 option:buy it..and thats what he did.Even then he needed some "irregularities" to bring it home.I wonder if many have wondered about their vote.Seems with the "war" he is still quite popular.I spose some Enron people would like to vote over.

The Enron "suits" should be thanking their stars they do not live in China.
 
Michael Moore is an idiot. But just like George Carlin, he is a funny idiot, so he is okay with me :goodjob:

But it is such a futile attempt to, literally, blame Bush for Enron, which is pointless. Yes, there is a deep connection.. so what? There are bigger issues to worry about with Enron, like transparent corperate practice and executive accountibility that shouldn't be obscured by referals to political connections.

Michael Moore and his type are so far on the political fringe that they have serious problems with allowing our democratic process to continue because they can't get their agenda heard: "...why we not only need an alternative to the current make-up of the Democratic Party, we need private money removed from our electoral process ASAP."

Basically, he wants the Democratic party to be hijacked by the far left socialist agenda that he represents, or he wants another party that reflects views that have less than 10% popular support. He also finds that the fact that those 10% don't have a lot of money should be reflected in removing money from the political system... how exactly we're supposed to do our job without 'private' investment, he won't tell us, but I'm insure it involves some sort of scheme that requires government sanctioned political activity with government taxed money. I'd rather have the private money chaos... at least private money has competing interests; sitting administrations only have one.
 
Michael Moore is the epitome of Pseudo-Intellectual liberals. They think quasi-comedy has some place in political ramblings. But this is coming from the self-hater who wrote 'How White Men Screwed Everything Up' or some such crap. (Well duh.. white men built the early American political infastructure stupid... Would you rather it have been the blacks? Of course not! Cos to Michael, all non-whites are innocent!)
Anyway, every president is corrupt. I'm sure he didn't write a letter to Guy Whitey Corngood(Bill Clinton) repremanding him on taking campaign donation money from the PRC through his old Little Rock pal Charlie Trie. Nor did he write a letter telling him how its digusting a national leader would cheat on his wife!
He's mad because Bush won and Gore didn't. Well both men are dishonest and maybe Gores a bit smarter (which is still pretty dumb) but at least Bush does what he says! On top of which NO election is fair with the Electoral College in exsitance. Mike needs to go back to Political Science 101.
 
When will people learn, Democracy Doesn't Work!!!" -Homer Simpson
Are you sure that was Homer because it sounds like a Kent Brockman quote, i.e.
I said it before and I'll say it again, Democracy simply doesn't work.

He's mad because Bush won and Gore didn't.
I would like to know what you are basing that on. Gore won more votes than Bush, too me that sounds like Gore won but we British have a funny sense of democracy. Gore got more votes than Bush in Florida, so he should have won through the electoral college. The only reason Bush is President is because the Supreme court stopped recounts in heavily Democratic counties and allowed them in heavily Republican countries. Also they allowed very dubious, and many illegal, votes from the overseas armed forces. So Bush was given the Presidency by the Supreme Court, many of whom are Republican having being given their jobs by Bush senior and Reagan. Also many of the justices were looking to retire during this Presidency term and so allow this President to replace them. And surprise surprise it will be a Republican President. Now don't take this as me saying that Gore is better than Bush but the fact is that Gore won the election and in a country as democratic as America I find it sad that you don't care.
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
we British have a funny sense of democracy

According to my (English) lecturer at the University, 'the first-past-the-post' system has in the past created administrations that actually received as little 1/3 of the votes cast. So yes, you do have a funny sense of democracy. :p

I guess it all boils down to what a whino once told me at a bus stop - people get the leaders they deserve :lol:
 
'the first-past-the-post' system has in the past created administrations that actually received as little 1/3 of the votes cast.
But an MP is only elected when they have more votes than their closest opponent. So Mr Bush would not be an MP (if you imagine that America was a constituency of Britain) and that is my point. Although I am not one for praising the merits of our system of democracy.
 
Originally posted by Lt.Col. Kilgore
I'm sure he didn't write a letter to Guy Whitey Corngood(Bill Clinton) repremanding him on taking campaign donation money from the PRC through his old Little Rock pal Charlie Trie.
Yes, he did. Michael Moore critisized Clinton, and as far as I know didn't say anything good about him. Michael Moore is to the left of Clinton... way left.

Originally posted by Lt.Col. Kilgore
He's mad because Bush won and Gore didn't.
No, Michael Moore actively campaigned against Al Gore. He supported Ralph Nader, who gave speeches that attacked Gore more viciously than they ever did Bush. Michael Moore was part of that 3% of Nader voters who never heard of a primary.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Now don't take this as me saying that Gore is better than Bush but the fact is that Gore won the election and in a country as democratic as America I find it sad that you don't care.
If it were only that simple.
One thing I noticed about the election mess... from day one, the U.S. media portrayed Bush as the clear winner, while the world media portrayed Gore as the winner.
But I think the world saw it as a well played conspiracy... where in fact it was the tapdancing around rules of bumbling fools who didn't know they existed. Hanging chads weren't a political issue, so both sides latched on to what they thought would benefit their candidate. The irony is that in the FINAL recounts that a coalition of media outlets did, Gore's top choice of how to count the ballots would have thrown the election to Bush, and Bush's top choice of how to count the ballots would have thrown the election to Gore. Pity we never got that far.
 
But I think the world saw it as a well played conspiracy
I am not sure it was a conspiracy but there are certainly some facts that sound a little fishy. For example, the first major tv network to declare Bush the winner on election night was FOX. The head of the FOX news is none other than brother-in-law to George W. This is not to mention that the governor of Florida was Jed Bush and the head of the Florida election of Katherine Harris, who worked on the Bush campaign. So it is no surprise to hear that many eligble voters who would be expected to vote Democract were struck off electoral rolls. This was because Florida has a law saying that their citizens can't vote in their elections if they have committed a crime. However the problem was that many of the people barred from voting had never committed a felony. They just had similar names of people who had or they had the same date of birth. The people choosing who got barred from the electoral roll wrote to Ms Harris saying that her rules for who got barring had the strong chance that many of those barred shouldn't have been barred. She wrote back saying basically that she didn't care (not her exact words). Now do you think that there wasn't a conspiracy?
 
Originally posted by Greadius
Yes, he did. Michael Moore critisized Clinton, and as far as I know didn't say anything good about him. Michael Moore is to the left of Clinton... way left.

No, Michael Moore actively campaigned against Al Gore. He supported Ralph Nader, who gave speeches that attacked Gore more viciously than they ever did Bush. Michael Moore was part of that 3% of Nader voters who never heard of a primary.


You sure told me. (Must think before letting off stupid emotionally charged political steam.)
 
Originally posted by MrPresident

But an MP is only elected when they have more votes than their closest opponent. So Mr Bush would not be an MP (if you imagine that America was a constituency of Britain) and that is my point. Although I am not one for praising the merits of our system of democracy.

Sure, the balloting in Florida was an embarassment. Manual counting would have been more effective.

But it is totally unfair of anyone in a British parliamentary system to slag the US system because of the electoral college. Sure, MPs must win more votes than any other candidate. But it is uncommon in any Westminster-style democracy that any MP candidate wins over 50% of the vote in their riding. In short, it is also rare that any PARTY wins over 50% of the vote to win government, and it happens now and again that the ruling party has actually won less votes overall than the opposition, just as Bush has. In Canada, for example, see the last Quebec provincial election, a mid-90's election in B.C. and Joe Clark's federal government as examples in the last 25 years.

The only difference in the election of the executive branch between the US system and the British, fundamentally, is that for Britain, the MPs ARE the electoral college.

And Michael Moore is a pompous ass. I don't hate him because he is left-wing; many left-wingers work hard for what they beleive in, and deserve respect. But there is nothing worse than the endless holier-than-thou sarcasm that comes from "commentators" like him; I would put Rush Limbaugh in the same league, who's comments are based almost entirely on slagging everything they see without a single effort to do something constructive to their credit, save for mouthing a bunch of idealogical kaka that neither of them would ever have a chance in hell of making work in practice.

I would love to see either fat bastard hold public office for two years and see how long he lasts.

:rocket:

I am certain it wouldn't be terribly long at all. They would feel unfairly picked on. Six weeks in, they would be blaming the "liberal"/"conservative" media for their failure to deliver on their extravagant, "it's all so easy" promises. Two months in, they would have alienated every single potential colleague, and it would suddenly dawn on them that politics in a country of more than two people requires that you make some accommodation for the views of a second person.

R.III
 
In the past year, I have grown ever more disgusted with Moore, as he has moved from semi-amusing irrelevancies and muck raking to a most sickening continuous diatribe of self righteous, sanctimonious clap trap, claiming the unassailable moral high ground for ever. In his world view, anyone who opposes the Moorian line is a stupid, ignorant, malicious, war mongering capitalist, racist, fascist imperialist.

He has gone from funny to completely irrelevant and petty to plainy insulting.
 
Michael Moore...does anyone expect to take this guy seriously?

Might as well blame World War II on George Bush, fatso.
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
He has gone from funny to completely irrelevant and petty to plainy insulting.

you hit the nail on the head. Moore used to be funny to some. He used to actually represent the views of a large group of Americans, mainly unionized workers. At the point when he first came onto the national scene, his views were in line with much of working class America. After his initial success however, he morphed into one of the "intellectual" leftists, changing his views from a more populist worldview to one that, at least for him, is more intellectualy "honest". The man is now a lunatic.

As far as the American election goes, I think there are a lot of factors that many foreigners, and probably more Americans don't consider when analyzing the results. Bush, in a recount conducted by countless news organizations, won the recount under the process that the southern florida counties were using at the time the Florida Supreme Court stopped them. They all concluded that Bush would have one the state unless the more stringent ballot counting method advocated by his own team were used.

All of the major news networks called Florida, and therefore the election, before voting was closed in a good section of western florida. Much of the Florida panhandle is in the central time zone as opposed to the eastern zone in which most of the state resides. That section of Florida happens to be overwhelmingly Republican (very white, very fundamentalist christian). Many of those people may not have gone to the polls because by the time they would have voted, the state had already been called, and they thus felt their votes didn't count. The fact is, because the television networks messed up calling the state too early, we can never know what effect that had on those voters who had not yet cast their vote.

The electoral college. It is an incredibly flawed system because it encourages lower voter turnout nationwide. For example, in a state like Texas, which supported Bush by a 75/25 margin or thereabouts, or a state like California, which overwhelmingly supported Gore, the supporters of the candidate who are so far behind have little incentive to go out and vote. Because their votes only matter in the states they vote in and because those states were decided long before election day, the supporters of the trailing candidate often give up hope. Only the voters in closely contested states have much incentive to go out and vote. I know that's sad, everyone should excercise their right to vote, but fewer and fewer people are doing so these days.

Yes, the electoral college system is flawed, but that's the way we elect our president. Therefore, the popular vote does not really matter. That's because the popular vote in our system is a truly inaccurate measure of the intent of the voting public. In the week or two before the elections, Bush was polling anywhere between 1-3% points ahead of Gore in most polls. I feel that's a better measure of the opinion of the American public. What the people who supported Gore and think he actually won conveniently forget is that with a straight one person = one vote system, the popular voting numbers would certainly have been different than they were with our current electoral college system. I don't know who would have won the election in that circumstance, but it is far from a cut and dry case that it would have been Al Gore.

Voter apathy is an embarassment to our democracy (representative republic, whatever you want to call it) and I think that revoking the electoral college system could do a lot to reverse the trend we have seen in recent years.
 
Originally posted by NY Hoya

you hit the nail on the head. Moore used to be funny to some. He used to actually represent the views of a large group of Americans, mainly unionized workers. At the point when he first came onto the national scene, his views were in line with much of working class America. After his initial success however, he morphed into one of the "intellectual" leftists, changing his views from a more populist worldview to one that, at least for him, is more intellectualy "honest". The man is now a lunatic.


Exactly. The reason I used to like him, enjoy a lot of his work, and subscribe to his e-mailing list is that I could identify a bit of a chord with the notions he put forth about working class disillusionment, and corporate abandonment. I did not agree with everything he put forth, but considered his opinions quite funny and interesting.
But, as said, he moved to a more intellectual, elitist, leftist ivory tower as time went by, and when the events of last year occured, he became irrelevant and carping, joining the ranks of Susan Sontag and Richard Gere.
Add this to his inability to accept the 2000 presidential election result, and we get the result that he is a figure who operates in the past, grasping at history and spouting utter nonsense.
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
Add this to his inability to accept the 2000 presidential election result, and we get the result that he is a figure who operates in the past, grasping at history and spouting utter nonsense.

wait, are you still talking about moore here or did you move on to Al Gore?:lol:
 
Bush, in a recount conducted by countless news organizations, won the recount under the process that the southern florida counties were using at the time the Florida Supreme Court stopped them.
I would love to see the information for this and which one of the countless news organisations conducted the research because of all the information I have seen the only way Bush could have won is if they recounted only very heavily Republican areas and allowed dubious overseas ballots.

Therefore, the popular vote does not really matter.
I find this amazing to hear from an American. Your country was built on democracy. It prides itself as the freest society on the world. It is the leader of the free world. And you don't care about the popular vote because of the electoral college?!? If someone with a clear majority in the popular vote doesn't get elected, will you not call for change? The popular vote is the most important measure of how popular a President. A President with a majority in the popular vote has a mandate for their campaign promises. In another words, the popular should matter the most and most of the time it probably does.
But it is uncommon in any Westminster-style democracy that any MP candidate wins over 50% of the vote in their riding.
I think that has a lot to do with our three-party system as much as any thing else. At the moment Labour is projected 43% of the vote, Tories' 33%, and the Liberals 17%. So I think you can see why it is hard to get a clear majority.
The only difference in the election of the executive branch between the US system and the British, fundamentally, is that for Britain, the MPs ARE the electoral college.
If you think that is the only difference you either don't understand what the executive branch of government is or you don't know the situation in Britain. Our head of state is not elected. The party elects our Prime Minister, with the approval of the monarchy. The only thing that the British people elect are the MPs who will represent them in Parliament and if they elect someone not with the majority/ruling party then those people have no say in the executive.
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
I would love to see the information for this and which one of the countless news organisations conducted the research because of all the information I have seen the only way Bush could have won is if they recounted only very heavily Republican areas and allowed dubious overseas ballots.

Here you go:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

some excerpts:

"Using the NORC data, the media consortium examined what might have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not intervened. The Florida high court had ordered a recount of all undervotes that had not been counted by hand to that point. If that recount had proceeded under the standard that most local election officials said they would have used, the study found that Bush would have emerged with 493 more votes than Gore."

"Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide."

The article examines a lot of scenarios. Under some, Gore wins, others, Bush wins. The new organizations included CNN, the New York Times and others.

QUOTE]Originally posted by MrPresident
I find this amazing to hear from an American. Your country was built on democracy. It prides itself as the freest society on the world. It is the leader of the free world. And you don't care about the popular vote because of the electoral college?!? If someone with a clear majority in the popular vote doesn't get elected, will you not call for change? The popular vote is the most important measure of how popular a President. A President with a majority in the popular vote has a mandate for their campaign promises. In another words, the popular should matter the most and most of the time it probably does. [/QUOTE]

Did you read what I wrote? The overall popular vote is made irrelevant by the electoral college process. That is why it is not accurate to look at the popular vote that occured under that system when determining who had the most popular support in the country at the time of the election. It's a subtle point that's lost on all of those who say that Gore had the most votes and therefore should have one the election. Without the electoral college system in place, the popular vote would have been different and therefore, because Gore had the most individual votes under that system you cannot draw conclusions from the result as to whom the greater public support belonged.

I never said that the popular vote of the public does not matter. You took that quote out of context. It does not matter in the context of trying to figure out who won the 2000 election because of the intricacies and flaws of the electoral college system. I am all in favor of revoking the electoral college, but I do not think that Gore would have won the election even if we had prior to the 2000 vote.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Might as well blame World War II on George Bush, fatso.
Is this a good time to point out that Bush Sr.'s father had business dealings with Nazi Germany as late as 1941? :D

Originally posted by MrPresident
If you think that is the only difference you either don't understand what the executive branch of government is or you don't know the situation in Britain. Our head of state is not elected. The party elects our Prime Minister, with the approval of the monarchy. The only thing that the British people elect are the MPs who will represent them in Parliament and if they elect someone not with the majority/ruling party then those people have no say in the executive.
Exactly his point I believe... that the people only have an indirect say in the election of the executive. However, in 53 presidential elections since the Constitution was adopted, only three of them have had a problem because of the electoral college. The founding fathers had a vision of how presidential elections would work that was obsolete by Jefferson's election in 1804; it didn't even last 15 years. Since then, Andrew Jackson, Samuel Tilden, and perhaps Al Gore have been the victims of a badly executed idea. Of course, Andrew Jackson recovered and won by a big enough majority that the House of Representatives couldn't overturn it (ironically, in much the same partison manner the Supreme Court would decide the election). Hopefully Al Gore will get as lucky :D
 
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