Micro-Resources

Samael

Warlord
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
159
There are so many little resources (more specifically resource products like shoes and beads) in the game that do so little, I have to wonder if its not perhaps possible to link them up better with buildings or cause them to have some advantage. Is all Shoes really good for a tiny bonus in income? When I noticed baskets were now used for Fish Traps, for instance, I thought it was a great idea.

If a micro-resource isn't used for something directly, it could certainly increase the rate at which it is built - perhaps things like baskets or barrels could speed up the rate at which granaries are built?

If its not possible to make combinations of resources have bonuses (such as getting an extra bonus for having Hats, Clothes and Shoes), can we work in low cost (even 1-hammer) buildings to take advantage of these products, locally? Sort of like how Flint enables the Flint Knapper's hut.

For example:
Automobiles should possibly be required for, well, anything that regulates vehicles (DMVs and parking meters without automobiles?)

Hats, Clothes, Shoes: Uniformer (+0.2 Happiness per garrison infantry, +1 culture, +1 XP for units trained here or +10% to train units)

Clothes, (Fur, Cotton, Sheep, etc.): Warm Clothing (units trained locally begin with promotion, renaissance-period tech enables any city with access to resources to gain bonus)

I think giving them some small boost to making more meaningful infrastructure, akin to how having Stone aids in building walls, or giving them unique but not-too potent buildings might help grant them more purpose.
 
This is actually a really good idea - hell, settling in tundra could be disabled until you have charcoal, permafrost until you have warm clothes and ice until you have igloos/insulated housing.
 
yeah... I'm sure you've only scratched the surface of a much needed effort there. I would request you gather all ideas you have for all resources in the game and generate a bulletpoint list of them so that it can be like a checklist for us to review and comment on and then act on once we have a clear picture of how all the little changes can add up to a bigpicture impact.

In otherwords, we need a really big brainstorm to cover all ideas down these roads because they are very worth traveling!
 
Well, I have nothing better to do today, I can try at least! I might not be able to do an amazing job - there might be some overlap because, well, I don't have a perfect knowledge of all the buildings and interaction with civics and promotions that already exist but I can try to come up with, well, stuff at least. I would have come up with more in the initial post but I didn't want to seem too presumptuous.
 
yeah... I'm sure you've only scratched the surface of a much needed effort there. I would request you gather all ideas you have for all resources in the game and generate a bulletpoint list of them so that it can be like a checklist for us to review and comment on and then act on once we have a clear picture of how all the little changes can add up to a bigpicture impact.

In otherwords, we need a really big brainstorm to cover all ideas down these roads because they are very worth traveling!

I can try to think of some good ideas for what some resources might give. Not sure if this would work but could we have certain techs only be unlocked with certain resources?
 
I've been working off and on at this for hours now so it may look a total mess.

I've done a little research (which mostly means hitting up Wikipedia, I'm afraid - its pretty early in the day for me). Feel free to shoot down any ideas that don't particularly make sense. Most of what I've done so far is simply to come up with ideas for resources - there aren't much in the way of Warm Clothes winter promotions on the whole here, yet - mostly its just ideas on how to give some of the less useful resources purposes for being.

NEW NATIVE CULTURE IDEA: This is a very awkward idea but what if building the Wonder for a culture grants an otherwise unobtainable tech, which then enables you to build a national wonder that grants the resource. This means that OTHER nations could perhaps gain access to the tech through tech diffusion, which would enable them to build the national wonder to, simulating emigration. This particular tech, however, should diffuse very slowly in the early game as people don't travel far but increase with every major transportation tech (ocean going ships, automobiles, planes) - so there is a chance, say, that people can gain knowledge from neighbours crossing the border. Obviously, border techs should influence how likely this is to happen - open borders making it more likely, closed borders decreasing it. If this is the case, then, closed borders should have some bonus. I think some of the small cultures (such as Aka and Basque) might migrate very slowly, if at all. Others (such as American or Chinese) might have less of a problem. If its possible to influence the diffusion at all, maybe its easier for cultures to share with those of the same backbone culture (German and Austrian, for instance).

I've never quite understood what national wonders should be limitted in terms of x per city. If that limit is lifted, it could make this idea work - I honestly don't think that a microlith workshop or learning to tame fire should stop a city from later building the DMV or a heroic epic. I'd kind of personally see national wonders either made unlimited, alongside the option for national units (which I actually have off) and great wonders (which I have on). If not, maybe make the cultural "national wonders" and early national wonders which really shouldn't interfere with late game infrastructure into buildings that have a limit of 1 per civ but no influence on national wonder availability.

An alternative is to perhaps make each "wonder" of a native culture actually grant multiple instances of the resource so it can be traded, thus enabling the sharing of culture and ideas. Just brainstorming though.

Small Cultures and Nationalism: I'm just wondering how cultures should interact with nationalism. I think, perhaps, cities might produce more culture but more revolutionary spirit (possibly unhappyiness or increased rev) through separitist ideals. The units they train, however, should probably qualify for a smaller version of the Motherland Promotion - say +1 first strike, +10% strength in own territory, +10% city defence)



Herds: Is it possible that instead of outright providing Carcasses, Herds provide the relevant resource? Like, Bison - Herd providing Bison and then Bison Hunter's Camp requiring either a local source of Bison or the existing herd to provide Carcasses? Once herds are established, wouldn't it be possible to train the relevant Subdued Animal, thus enabling me to take herds elsewhere and set them up? As is, I think the Animal -> Carcass -> Hide/Bones line is possibly the most developed, useful and coansistent.

Anyway, for possibilities for the various unused or less important resources. I skipped over ones I had no suggestions for or felt had plenty already.

Aborigine - Rock Painting (Building, Requires Natural Pigments, requires Rocky terrain or Peak or Outcropping, +1 culture, +1 happiness, +3 culture with discovery of Archaeology, +2 Culture with Peak or Outcropping to make more valuable)

- Ayers Rock/Uluru (Wonder. Requires Peak near city, +1 Happiness, +3 culture, gives Rock Painting in all cities. Does not require aborigine but gains +50% bonus to build from it. +2 gold from Tourism)

Ainu - Ainu Village (Building, requires Tattoos, +1% Culture with Tattoo Parlour, +1 Food with Deer, +2 XP to units trained here if Poison is available, trains Surku 20% faster)
As an aside, Tattoo Parlour requires Dye as is, yet gains +5% culture with Dye. Remove Dye requirement, first of all, keep +5% bonus.

Aka - Aka Hunters (Building, +0.1 Health per unimproved jungle within city limits, +0.5 food per unimproved jungle within city limits, trains Pygmy Warrior 20% faster)

Almonds - Required for Nuts already. Possibly Massage Parlour (Building), which adds a little culture, happiness and possibly a point of health - Almonds aren't required for it, but might grant a small extra bonus to health or happiness (apparently Almond Oil is used in massage?)

Amber - +1% gold with Jewellery, +1 Guld with Bazaar, Market, etc. line. If we go down the weird sciences route...
Jurassic Park (Wonder, requires Fossils, Amber, Genetics. +25% science, +100% gold in city, +1 Happiness in all cities, +1 Great Scientist Point per turn. Each tile surrounding city produces 1 less food and 3 more gold, to represent space taken up by park facilities?)

American - +1 Happiness with Mall, Mall of America (wonder, requires Refridgeration, requires at least 5 Malls, America gains +50% to build, adds Mall to all cities over Size 20 automatically)

Ammunition - already has plenty. Ammo Dump (Increase flammability, -10% defence, -5% Espionage, +33% build Gunpowder Units, +25% build Siege, Wheeled and Tracked Units, +10% build Early Fighters and Bombers). Possibly Naval Mine units - mine warfare seems to have nothing associated with it yet.

Ancient Relics - revealed much sooner, say during Middle Ages, to represent selling and scavenging of things abandoned by many of the classic empires - aquaducts and roman manors in post-roman britain were subject to scavenging, even for their masonry, as it was often easier to just steal blocks from an old house or fort than to quarry out new ones. Dig Site still requires Archaeology, but simply having Ancient Relics within the City limits enables the following: Scavenger Quarry (+20% to building production, +1 Food on Ancient Relic Sites, +1 Hammer on Ancient Relic Sites, -1 Gold on Ancient Relic Sites). Perhaps make Treasure units (spawned from Ruins) be able to, when still on Ruins, sacrifice themselves to create a source of Ancient Relics to represent scavenging.

Apache - Apache Teepee (Requires Plains, Shelter Building, Skinning, +1 Food, +1 Hammer, +1 XP for Archers and Mounted Units)
Apache Wickiup (Requires Plains, Shelter Building, Bark Working, +1 Food, +1 Hammer, +1 XP for Archers and Mounted Units)
Apache Hogan (requires Desert, Shelter Building, Stone Building, +1 Food, +1 Hammer, +1 XP for Archers and Mounted Units)

Apple - Already does plenty not listed on it's page (alcohol, etc.) Perhaps things like Distillery should not require local resources but access to resources at all?

Arabian - Arabesque Architecture (Building, Requires Architecture, +1 GPP Artist, -1 Hammer, +5% Culture)
- One Thousand and One Arabian Nights (Wonder, Requires Literature. Does not require Arabian but gains +50% to build from it. Possibly ahistorical, unfotunately, but its history is complex. +1 Happiness in all cities, +25% culture in city, +2 GPP Artist. Possibly requires Paper?)
- House of Wisdom (Wonder, Requires Literature, Does not require Arabian but gains +50% to build from it, +20% Science, increase rate of tech diffusion, halves cost of Language civics, obsolete with Universal Translator. Possibly requires Paper?)

Armenian - +1 Happiness with Dance Hut and Dance Hall
Artsakhan Carpets (Building, Requires Trade, Cloth, +2 Gold, +1 Culture, +5% gold with market-line buildings)

Assyria - Already has cultural wonder - possibly make it available to all cultures and give it +50% to build wonder instead.

Australia - ANZAC Spirit (Wonder Requires Automatic Weapons, does not require Australia but gets +50% to build. If New Zealand gets a culture too, they should also gain +50% to build. Becomes obsolete quickly, possibly with Mechanized Warfare, representing the fact that it got quickly disbanded and reorganized. +1 Culture, +2 XP to units in all cities, -20% War Weariness in all Cities, +10% to train gunpowder infantry in all cities - if possible, make it increase to +35% during wars)

Austria - House of Hasburg (Wonder Requires Divine Right, does not require Austria but gets +50% to build. Increased relations with all civs, -25% maintenance for number of cities? +1 Culture in all cities. If "wedding" based events occurr, gain a Great Artist)

Automobile - DMV, modern roads, etc. should require Automobile just as a matter of fact.

Aztec - Grant bonus to building Chichen Itza? +1 Happiness in Cities after Captured Slaves are Sacrificed, +1 Happiness and +2 XP to Melee Units with Sacrificial Altar

Babylon - Babylonian Mathematics (World Project, Babylon gets +25% to build it, requires Babylon + Writing to give head start - others require just Mathematics. Producer gets 1 Great Scientist, all cities get +2 Beakers and +5% science, all cities in the world get +1 Beaker. If the owner did not have Mathematics researched, gain Mathematics.)

Bamboo - already does plenty, but perhaps should do most things wood can (can't hovels and huts be made from bamboo?)

Bandanese - initial wonder should require Culture (Asian), volcano maybe (volanic islands), definitely coast and possibly reef. Almost certainly should require Spice due to Nutmeg Trade.
Nutmeg Monopoly (Building, Requires Spice Trade, Spice resource in vicinity. Allows 2 Merchants, +5% gold, grants Spice resource. The reason being this potentially increases their supply which means they can conduct more trading)

Banana - already used for multiple things not listed on page (as buildings require it in vicinity)

Barley - should be available as alternative resource for alcohol and fullfill similar options (Strategic Grain Reserve, etc.) that Corn and other grains do. Should also have associated grain farm to produce grain for biofuels.

Barrels - +20% to build any building that involves alcohol (distillery, bars) or simple storage (granary, for instance), +20% to build wooden ships, +1 Health (due to safe storage), +10% to build Civillian units (transport of goods for workers and freight)

Baskets - +10% to build things like granaries, +10% to build Civillian units (transport of goods for workers and freight)

Basque - Requires Culture (Europe)
Basque Equality (Requires Monarchy -tech.+1 Happiness, +1 Culture, +5% Food Stored)
Guernica Mural (Requires Cubism, perhaps?, Wonder, +50% to build with Basque but not required, +2 GPP Artist, +50% Culture, enemies suffer +50% War Weariness, spawns Great Artist, +1 Culture in all Art Galleries)

Beads - Not really sure - already have economic use through trade posts/marketplace. I feel something should be done with them, however.

Bengali - Bengali Waterways (Building, Requires Steam Power, +0.5 Merchants per River Tile or Marsh Tile)

Benin - Dahomey Militarism (Building, +10% Military Unit production, +2 XP, +2 more XP with Apprenticeship)

Berber - Corsair's Landing (Building, Increases Criminal activity, Wooden Ships trained here gain +2 XP and begin with Coastal Assault I promotion. +20% to build Barbary Corairs)

Bermese - shouldn't that be Burmese? Possible units to include Ghurka. Unsure about unique structures and other bonuses, however. Perhaps Burmese Pagoda?

Berries - as with other fruit, they already have a general application. Should provide bonuses to things like Bakery.

Bicycles - +1 Health, +1 Happiness with Extreme Sports and Tourism?

Biopunk - Not really my place to say as this is a part of the alt-history stuff that I don't know much about. How do we explore alt history in game, anyway?

Bison - Already has existing dynamic, possibly be used to train Subdued Bison so herds can be set up elsewhere?

Books - Books are used by buildings that primarily already can be built (due to having paper or tablets). As a result, it might make more sense to give Books a +5% beakers on buildings like libraries, schools and monastaries for the ease they provide. Books should also perhaps provide a bonus to Happiness in scientific buildings but suffer -2 to Happiness, say, with Intolerant (civic) due to the decreased control over heretical beliefs.

Brass Instruments - +1 XP to training units (military regimental band, morale boost)

Brazilian - Sabma (Wonder, requires Radio, does not require Brazillian but gains +50% production. +2 GPP, 1 artist slot, +25% culture, gives 2 Hit Singles)

Bread - As an enormous staple food, perhaps it should provide increased Food with the Market-chain of buildings.

Bullion - Possibly increase trade route yield on trade buildings by +5% due to the increased ease of carrying and storing precious metals

Byzantine - +50% to build Hagia Sofia, perhaps
Conversion of Constantine (Requires Theology, +50% to build from having Byzantine, Religious Conversion causes no anarchy but cannot be performed more than once in 100 turns. +1 Happiness in all cities with State Religion, +1 Happines in all cities with State Religion for controling State Religion Holy City, +3 Happiness in State Religion Holy City, +50% production in all cities to build Missionaries, Missionaries generate small amount of culture when they add religion)

Canadian - Already has some wonders tied to them.

Cantonese - Bruce Lee (Wonder, requires Radio, does not require Cantonese but gains +50% production. +2 GPP, 1 artist slot, +25% culture, gives 2 Hit Movies, units trained here gain Martial Arts III)

Carbon Dioxide Ice - No idea of yet, especially with it being tied to space techs.

Carib - Ritual Cannibalism (wonder, requires Sacrifice cult, does not require Carib but gains +50% production. Units in City gain +2 XP, nearest city gains culture, hammers or food when enemy units are killed, akin to hunting - not standardised like it though, just random returns. Enemies suffer +50% War Weariness, obsoletes with a later medicine tech)

Carthaginian - Hannibal's Army (building, requires elephants in vicinity, Elephant Riding and Military Training, +3 XP for Units, Melee, Mounted and Ranged Units begin with Mountaineering Promotion)

Celtic - Most of the Celtic bonuses in terms of wonders should be moved to Scottish
The Book of Kells (Wonder, requires Christianity, does not require Celtic but gains +50%. +2 GPP, can make 1 Artist Slot, 1 Priest Slott, +25% culture, +25% research in city, +5% research in all Christian Monastaries, +25% production to build Christian Monastaries in all cities)
Celtic Art (Building, requires Chiefdom, +1 Culture, can make 1 citizen into Artist)

Ceylon - Epic of Ramayana? Both Ceylon and India would have a bonus to produce this and it would require Hinduism in the city. Unsure of bonuses.

Charcoal - as suggested in the comments, enabling people to settle in Tundra, Ice and Permafrost may be interesting or possibly enabling terrain that is otherwise unproductive to at least provide 1 gold, akin to deserts.

Cheese - Long lasting foods, +10% to build Settlers?

Cherokee - Medicine Man's Hut (Building, +1 GPP Great Healer, +1 Culture, +1 Health)

Cheyenne - Cheyenne Village (+1 food from Bison sources, +1 Hammer from Horses, +1 XP)

Chocolate - Grants bonus to happiness, possible penalties to health as time goes on

Chola - Chola Contentment (Building, +1 Happiness, +1 Culture)

Chumash - As it seems the Chumash were capable ocean goers, recommending a low-strength ship that can cross oceans prior to middle ages. Reason I suggest low strength is to prevent the civ from being able to travel the world too easily - something strong enough to get by many animals but apt to get destroyed by foreign fleets and barbarians if it explores too far along unsure coasts.

Clockpunk - Alternative tech, already under work. Because of the DaVinci nature of it, I might suggest adding a Clockwork Tank and Clockwork Copter as well, granting primitve flight. If the latter happens, I think Ranged and Gunpowder units should probably have limitted AA capability - I mean, in the first world war, ground infantry were capable of potentially taking down planes. I only suggest this to prevent a Clockwork Copter being indestructible.

Clothing - Uniform and Warm Clothing options already suggested, perhaps make them as cheap buildings that require all relevant resources.

Coffee - Already somewhat relevant for buildings - perhaps add Cafe building which requires either Tea or Coffee.

Comanche - Commanche Wars (Building, requires Cavalry Tactics +2 XP for Mounted Units, Mounted Units begin with Flanking I)

Copper Wires - Should be somewhat integral for many modern buildings, including power plants, telephones, possibly telegraph offices considering they enter with telegraph. Telegraph Office should probably be cheaper than Telephone Network but provide fewer bonuses due to the time lag involved.

Cotton - Possibly Cotton Gin to increase gold yield from Cotton Planations

Cree - Cree Wigwams (Building, +1 Hammer, +1 Gold, +1 Culture)
Cree Canoes (Building, +0.5 gold per river tile, +1 Culture)

Cuban - Cuban Cigars (Wonder, requires Mercantilism, Tobacco in city vicinity. Does not require Cuban but gains +50% production. +2 GPP, 2 Merchant Slots, +25% Gold, gives extra Tobacco Resource, Tobacco Resource gains +1 Happiness and all Tobacco resources produce +2 Gold for Civ)



Suggested combinations:
Building - Warm Clothing (clothes + furs) could grant promotions to increase defence in tundra, ice and permafrost and remove damage from terrain
Building - Water Supplies (Barrels + Lake or River) could grant promotions to increase defence in deserts and remove damage from terrain
Building - SCUBA Gear (Lake, River or Coast + Clothing + Steel) could grant promotions that give Espionage Units the ability to enter coastal tiles and Special Forces-type units Amphibious.
 
NEW NATIVE CULTURE IDEA: This is a very awkward idea but what if building the Wonder for a culture grants an otherwise unobtainable tech, which then enables you to build a national wonder that grants the resource. This means that OTHER nations could perhaps gain access to the tech through tech diffusion, which would enable them to build the national wonder to, simulating emigration. This particular tech, however, should diffuse very slowly in the early game as people don't travel far but increase with every major transportation tech (ocean going ships, automobiles, planes) - so there is a chance, say, that people can gain knowledge from neighbours crossing the border. Obviously, border techs should influence how likely this is to happen - open borders making it more likely, closed borders decreasing it. If this is the case, then, closed borders should have some bonus. I think some of the small cultures (such as Aka and Basque) might migrate very slowly, if at all. Others (such as American or Chinese) might have less of a problem. If its possible to influence the diffusion at all, maybe its easier for cultures to share with those of the same backbone culture (German and Austrian, for instance).

Yeah, not happening. The Native Culture idea has been through many incarnations. The current version is stable, works and is tested. I am not changing it any time soon. Its a big complex mess just to get it to where it is now. There are some other ideas that we wanted to add (see the thread for what they are). We may add them in the future but for now this is something I am not going to change not let get changed any time soon.

Herds: Is it possible that instead of outright providing Carcasses, Herds provide the relevant resource? Like, Bison - Herd providing Bison and then Bison Hunter's Camp requiring either a local source of Bison or the existing herd to provide Carcasses? Once herds are established, wouldn't it be possible to train the relevant Subdued Animal, thus enabling me to take herds elsewhere and set them up? As is, I think the Animal -> Carcass -> Hide/Bones line is possibly the most developed, useful and coansistent.

A Bison Herd DO provide bison as well as a Carcass resource. The Bison Hunter's Camp require bison in the city vicinity, thus its repetitive for it to provide bison. However it still gives a Carcass. And some DO allow for say a Bison Trainer wonder to be built which allows for Bison riders. It would be much too over powered for these herds to provide you with more subdued animals to spread to other cities. If you want to spread a resource then build a Great Farmer much later in the game.

Aborigine - Rock Painting (Building, Requires Natural Pigments, requires Rocky terrain or Peak or Outcropping, +1 culture, +1 happiness, +3 culture with discovery of Archaeology, +2 Culture with Peak or Outcropping to make more valuable)

There are some culture buildings in the game. However most never make sense, such as with your example. Why should Rock Painting be limiting to Aborigines? There are plenty of other cultures that make Rock Paintings. Thus most culture buildings are made into general buildings, wonders or even religious buildings. Its only the very specific buildings that get made into culture buildings. Thus its a low priority task on my todo list.

Amber - +1% gold with Jewellery, +1 Guld with Bazaar, Market, etc. line. If we go down the weird sciences route...
Jurassic Park (Wonder, requires Fossils, Amber, Genetics. +25% science, +100% gold in city, +1 Happiness in all cities, +1 Great Scientist Point per turn. Each tile surrounding city produces 1 less food and 3 more gold, to represent space taken up by park facilities?)

Amber stuff is planed to go to go into the Biopunk Jurassic park-like building.

American - +1 Happiness with Mall, Mall of America (wonder, requires Refridgeration, requires at least 5 Malls, America gains +50% to build, adds Mall to all cities over Size 20 automatically)

Note that some cultures do give a boost to to production of wonders that are historically from that culture. However only the wonder gives the benefit not the culture resource.

Ancient Relics - revealed much sooner, say during Middle Ages, to represent selling and scavenging of things abandoned by many of the classic empires - aquaducts and roman manors in post-roman britain were subject to scavenging, even for their masonry, as it was often easier to just steal blocks from an old house or fort than to quarry out new ones. Dig Site still requires Archaeology, but simply having Ancient Relics within the City limits enables the following: Scavenger Quarry (+20% to building production, +1 Food on Ancient Relic Sites, +1 Hammer on Ancient Relic Sites, -1 Gold on Ancient Relic Sites). Perhaps make Treasure units (spawned from Ruins) be able to, when still on Ruins, sacrifice themselves to create a source of Ancient Relics to represent scavenging.

Interesting idea. I will have to think about this one.

Bamboo - already does plenty, but perhaps should do most things wood can (can't hovels and huts be made from bamboo?)

Well you can only have so many AND/OR choices. However with the expression system you may be able to do more complex requirements that we had before when designing buildings.
 
Well, jeez, it was just an idea, I wasn't demanding it be changed or anything. I really appreciate the work you've all done on this mod.

Edit: Sorry, that was just to the first part which was all that was posted when I posted this comment. I was just worried I'd stepped on some toes. I may have also made some mistakes, I kinda sat down and hammered out ideas for six solid hours before having breakfast so I'm sorry if there are some inconsistencies.
 
I can try to think of some good ideas for what some resources might give. Not sure if this would work but could we have certain techs only be unlocked with certain resources?

I've often thought that resource access should influence the tech tree availabilities as well. It would need to be programmed most likely, though the new properties system may be able to set up such a condition. Suffice it to say it would really need some serious thought to make sure that at some point down the tech tree, the civilization can find another way to unlock the barred tech without the need for the resource. Horses... for example, didn't even exist on the last map I played on. Cutting off any tech can have disastrous consequences unforseen.

Nevertheless, some consideration of that should be made.

Love your thinking Samael!
RE the ancient relics idea, rather than adding ancient relics earlier (which I also think should ONLY be the result of an event that takes a city ruin and converts it to an ancient relics site) perhaps we should have an improvement that can only be built where a city ruin exists. Since their the same sort of thing (improvement), then as the scavenger camp is built, the city ruin would be destroyed, so you can't destroy the camp and expect to be able to rebuild it. Nevertheless, this would be pretty neat I think. I've always felt that a civilization should be able to make some good use of the materials of a destroyed city. Maybe there's another improvement that should be made buildable on a destroyed city space too... a Ruins Fort or something to that extent that represents the dead city being converted into a military fortification.

Your culture idea was extremely creative and innovative. I don't blame Hydro for being a bit harsh on that, not that I felt he was trying to be. Whether you realize it or not, that issue has been hashed and rehashed quite a bit. I think at this point we're wanting to let it lie for the most part though I have an idea that could allow for some development of excess culture resources for trading. I'm also thinking of perhaps having cultures be 'adoptable' like religions (but that's a distant project if ever.)

But yeah, your ideas are largely great, and like my first propositions, peppered in with a lot of things we've already to some extent done. Some of these thoughts though are just gold.
 
@Samael:

I understand if Hydro seemed defensive about the Culture System, He's spent so much time getting it to work and to be robust, and I've spent almost as much time getting fifty or so new Culture Units to work.

One great issue with C2C is that we have so many good ideas that there is no way that there will ever be enough coding time between us to make them all. That is why we have to prioritize ideas and work on one large thing per release (this release's idea is multi-maps). Your input is very much appreciated though.
 
I've never quite understood what national wonders should be limitted in terms of x per city.

If that limit is lifted, it could make this idea work - I honestly don't think that a microlith workshop or learning to tame fire should stop a city from later building the DMV or a heroic epic.

I agree that there should either be no limit on how many national wonders you can have in a city or that the limit should get greatly increased. It seams like C2C has "hundreds" of national wonders.

Aside: Another option would be to make the culture wonders behave like the shrines and not have them count towards the great wonder count in the city.

I'd kind of personally see national wonders either made unlimited,

ie turned into normal buildings?


alongside the option for national units (which I actually have off) and great wonders (which I have on). If not, maybe make the cultural "national wonders" and early national wonders which really shouldn't interfere with late game infrastructure into buildings that have a limit of 1 per civ but no influence on national wonder availability.

Buildings with a limit of one per civ is the definition of a national wonder.

- Ayers Rock/Uluru (Wonder. Requires Peak near city, +1 Happiness, +3 culture, gives Rock Painting in all cities. Does not require aborigine but gains +50% bonus to build from it. +2 gold from Tourism)

There is a mod out there that is almost complete that adds natural wonders to Civ IV in a similar way to how they are in Civ V. Uluru is one of those Natural Wonders.

Love your thinking Samael!
RE the ancient relics idea, rather than adding ancient relics earlier (which I also think should ONLY be the result of an event that takes a city ruin and converts it to an ancient relics site) perhaps we should have an improvement that can only be built where a city ruin exists. Since their the same sort of thing (improvement), then as the scavenger camp is built, the city ruin would be destroyed, so you can't destroy the camp and expect to be able to rebuild it. Nevertheless, this would be pretty neat I think. I've always felt that a civilization should be able to make some good use of the materials of a destroyed city. Maybe there's another improvement that should be made buildable on a destroyed city space too... a Ruins Fort or something to that extent that represents the dead city being converted into a military fortification.

There is a small mod comp by kathy for explorer and adventurer units to explore city ruins for treasure, I am about 70% the way through converting it to C2C but in needs a change to the Outcome system to be finished. It would just as easy to have a missionary or Great Prophet convert it into a "Pilgrimage Site". The pilgrimage site would just be an improvement but we would need graphics.
 
There is a small mod comp by kathy for explorer and adventurer units to explore city ruins for treasure, I am about 70% the way through converting it to C2C but in needs a change to the Outcome system to be finished. It would just as easy to have a missionary or Great Prophet convert it into a "Pilgrimage Site". The pilgrimage site would just be an improvement but we would need graphics.
Also excellent ideas all around. I wouldn't think they should override any aforementioned concepts but those TOO would be pretty cool! Another use for prophets could be quite handy indeed, both with DP and without. Many excess ones just get added to the cities.
 
Also excellent ideas all around. I wouldn't think they should override any aforementioned concepts but those TOO would be pretty cool! Another use for prophets could be quite handy indeed, both with DP and without. Many excess ones just get added to the cities.

I have never had an excess of GP ever. I once I did not get one. I don't play with DP on, all I seem to get is G Engineers who are useless given how cheap the wonders ar.
 
I have never had an excess of GP ever. I once I did not get one. I don't play with DP on, all I seem to get is G Engineers who are useless given how cheap the wonders ar.

We've got how to birth what we want pretty much when we want down to a science. It's pretty much all about being a wonder hog and focusing wonder buildings according to their gp pt values. But then... I suppose by your comment I'm guessing you play with the wonder limits on then?
 
@Samael:

I understand if Hydro seemed defensive about the Culture System, He's spent so much time getting it to work and to be robust, and I've spent almost as much time getting fifty or so new Culture Units to work.

One great issue with C2C is that we have so many good ideas that there is no way that there will ever be enough coding time between us to make them all. That is why we have to prioritize ideas and work on one large thing per release (this release's idea is multi-maps). Your input is very much appreciated though.

I really honestly didn't mean to slight his work, I was just blue-skying and I felt a little insulted because at the time, he seemed to single out my slip-up. I didn't know how much had gone into the cultural system - as is, I like it and I understand other methods could severely complicate it, I was just thinking out loud as I went through the cultural resources.

I'd be happy to sit down and try and think up some more ideas (sometimes I kind of struggled. I realise I kind of screwed up by suggesting cultures add 50% to building wonders that already exist - I originally missed this out because I was looking solely at the resource and I forgot to check.

Something else I just noticed though is that lead seems to provide a bonus to building gunpowder infantry but guns and ammunition don't? Perhaps they should be both absolutely required for late gunpowder infantry that require standardized production lines but early gunpowder infantry (muskets and arquebusiers) should possibly gain a bonus to production from Firearms, with Rifling era+ gunpowder and cavalry gain a bonus from both Firearms and Ammunition.

Buildings with a limit of one per civ is the definition of a national wonder.

I understand that but when I say unlimited, I mean in the way regular wonders can be made unlimited. I've never seen anyone else ask if the option removes the cap on national wonders in a city and I'm fine with national wonders taking up some of the city's resources to run. But unless they "free up" those slots when they obsolete, it encourages me to never build cultural national wonders or early game ones - I've never felt the need to build Captured Fire, Cave Dwelling, Microlith Workshop etc. because during the Prehistoric part of my game, all I have is my capital, a site I'd much rather place later, more powerful national wonders in. Whilst I can understand that having a dedicated Central Bank in a town might leave fewer bureaucrats to effectively run a series of other industries and services, I'm not sure how early man, chiselling stones and rocks and starting small fires would have an impact on that.

I'd find myself much more willing and happy to build the earlier national wonders if they didn't take up space after they obsolete or if the early national wonders didn't count against the limit. I actually prefer the first idea, in all honesty, but I realise how difficult that might be to organise.

I also understand a lot of my little ideas might have been proposed before, by other people for other mods. I'm afraid I can't know that intuitively though so if I suggest things like an idea on how to implement natural wonders that other mods have already done, I'm sorry.

As for things like Rock Carvings, I was trying to think of something that stood out for the Aborigine Australians and that was, I'm afraid, the first thing that came to mind. Other cultures that made them could be included as "Or" options, I suppose, in a similar manner to the Awa idea - hunter-gatherer tribe life could perhaps be a building that produces more food (and possibly production or gold) from all unimproved tiles and less from improved ones. Once the population increases, however, to 6 or so, say, the population becomes too large to rely on the hunter-gatherer lifestyle and the building becomes disabled, in a reversal of the norm (where population needs to be at least 6 to build something).
 
I understand that but when I say unlimited, I mean in the way regular wonders can be made unlimited. I've never seen anyone else ask if the option removes the cap on national wonders in a city and I'm fine with national wonders taking up some of the city's resources to run. But unless they "free up" those slots when they obsolete, it encourages me to never build cultural national wonders or early game ones - I've never felt the need to build Captured Fire, Cave Dwelling, Microlith Workshop etc. because during the Prehistoric part of my game, all I have is my capital, a site I'd much rather place later, more powerful national wonders in.

The bolded part in the above quote is (IMO) the way to go. That should be a simple DLL change.
 
Vetoing, explaining what we've already done that's similar, and expressing what we've seen like an idea in another mod, are all examples of feedback, not designed to belittle your suggestions, but to explain to you our stance on those ideas as they have been considered so far. Rather than just ignoring you as you blue sky around, we're letting you know that we've considered something along the lines of what you've suggested, and this is our current take on it. I can understand how you took the return comments, but believe me, this is by far the most input-open modding team you'll ever find. We try to be respectful and thankful for the ideas we're given and do what we can to respond to them to let people know they've been paid attention to. These statements were made to help you understand that we've heard you, but here's where we're at with that. Even Hydro's "not gonna happen" statement, is made to be courteous rather than offensive. He's letting you know where he's at emotionally with considering any reworkings on the cultures rather than how he feels about you suggesting it. This is to be helpful to you, even thankful, rather than to be condescending.

And I explain all this in the hopes that you'll feel better, not chastised ;)
 
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