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Micromanaging the City Screen

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by kamikazees, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. kamikazees

    kamikazees Warlord

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    Do you micromanage the tiles of your city screen?

    I am not talking about simply setting your city to production focus and locking down food tiles (which is what I usually do). I am talking about actively checking each one of your tiles in the city screen, almost every turn, to see that growth and production are both being achieved on the shortest number of turns.

    Here is what I mean:

    In this screenshot (Poland, on Diety), you can see that I'm building Porcelain Tower (PT) in Warsaw. The city is on :c5production: focus, with all max :c5food: tiles locked. I've got 19:c5citizen: in Warsaw, with 1 turn to get to 20:c5citizen:. It will take 15 turns to build PT.
    Spoiler :


    Now here, I've moved some of the tiles to production to cut down on the PT. I've still got 1 turn to get to 20:c5citizen:, but now PT will just take 11 turns. Not bad!
    Spoiler :


    So here, I've moved more tiles. PT will now only take 10 turns, but you can see I went too far. It will now take 2 turns to get to 20:c5citizen:. I don't want that!
    Spoiler :


    Finally, I've got the perfect balance here. Just shuffling one more tile gets me PT in 10 turns, while still getting to 20:c5citizen: in 1 turn.
    Spoiler :


    After the next turn, I repick the :c5food: tiles, then shuffle them around accordingly in the later turns to keep the turns on growth and production as low as possible.

    Is this amazing, or am I a total noob? I saw Moriarte1982 doing it in a recent video. It seems to work best when the city adds a :c5citizen:, builds a new building or even if a worker develops a new tile.

    I am no Civ5 expert, but I am achieving faster benchmarks than I have previously. For example, I got Education at T105, which I usually do not get until T115 or later. I also got Leaning Tower and Globe Theatre in this game, which I almost never get on Diety (in addition to Pyramids and PT, which are easier to get).
     
  2. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    This is core micro. Nice screenshots showing the tile-by-tile trade-offs.
     
  3. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    The AI actually does a decent job for you in optimizing the build/growth times. I've seen it work different tiles to get to growth or building completion one turn quicker. Of course, it doesn't take into account any extraneous factors although it tends to put more emphasis on production when you are building a World Wonder. It would be interesting to see what you would get if you unlocked all the tiles and let the AI make a suggestion.

    And btw, your last example still isn't perfect. You're working a 1F2H tile where you could be working a 2F2H tile.
     
  4. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    If that 1f2h tile is all you need to still grow next turn the 2f2h tile is a waste, because that 1 extra food just disappears when the calculations happen.
     
  5. Grubsnik

    Grubsnik Chieftain

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    Hmm, never checked this, is all overflow wasted when a new citizen is made?
     
  6. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    The extra food doesn't disappear, but it doesn't help you for a long time (until the next growth happens).
     
  7. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Yes, like Browd said, it is core micro and one of the essential gameplays to get better.
     
  8. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    The extra food indeed does not disappear. The only food that is wasted upon growth is the food from the tile provided by the new citizen.

    It's all about the order in which resources are processed. All events at the end or beginning of a turn occur sequentially. Food kicks in first so when there is growth, the new citizen is allocated to a tile according to city focus and any yield from that tile that is calculated after food gets carried through. Thus, when you run on food focus, if you have a farmed grassland available for a new citizen, the 3 or 4 food yield is "wasted" since food was already calculated when citizen is allocated.

    @Op and readers

    Sometimes, the apparently sick manipulation is mostly an illusion. A real appropriate way to micro manage would've been to look at current hammers put into PT, look into turn-to-completion, figure out how much you want to lower it by and then minmax total tile yields to achieve both the same turn to PT AND the most food.

    For instance, in your last SS, had you put the 2 hills/mine tiles onto the 4f grassland and 2f2h hill instead, the growth would've been allocated to a 3h hill anyway(instead of a 2f2h tile) essentially netting you 6 food carried over (+ any food bonus on it) and -1 hammer for the turn. Then, following through to the next turn, locking the growth to a 3h tile, reallocating the lumbermill 1f2h to 3h hill and then spending a single turn moving the 4f grassland citizen to a 3f1h plains would've had you keep the same turn-to-PT but net at least 5 food.


    I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's definitely a great thing to get into more and more such micromanaging mostly because it reduces lame mistakes of forgetting to shift this or that because you don't check city screen often enough but the real gain is very, very often an illusion.


    P.S. I'm saying that on all reserve, it's been a long time since I've checked whether aqueducts were causing the food not to be carried over as is the case normally but anyway under the assumption that it doesn't change the food calculation behaviour of the game, the 5 food in the example above could be the difference to 1 turn for next growth netting some science, gold and additional hammers over the course of the game so beware of illusions.

    An example of good early game minmaxing in that sense is to look up city info every time you come close to 2 turns to growth. Sometimes, if you math it out (easy and fast) you can shift a hammer tile to a food tile and cut growth by 1 turn at no hammer cost (effectively netting you however many food the tile shifted yielded for the remainder of the game as well as 1 turn equivalent of the science from growth). Similarly, if you are 1 turn to grow, you can reallocate a hammer tile to a food tile instead to carry over additional food and possibly cut a turn off the next growth instead of simply accepting that you'll get hammer yields from citizen focus instead. That is, since you are typically only working few hammer tiles in the early game because they suit your infrastructure timeliness, you can minmax growth by shifting hammer tiles off shortly before growth to get the most food/growth either at no net cost (if shifting 2 turns ahead cuts down growth to 1 turn) or at hammer cost.
     
  9. crazymarco

    crazymarco Chieftain

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    Micromanage is the ART of Civ.

    The deeper you get into this, the better your game plays, and the longer your turns time. :p
     
  10. Sadato

    Sadato Warlord

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  11. Luven

    Luven Chieftain

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    So, if you minmax that you hit your Production Goal exactly and maximise Food. Your next Production Project will take a bit longer (less production carried over) but you Grow a bit faster. How is one supposed to know what is better ?

    Isnt it best to always work the best tiles ?

    Is it really better to grow a bit faster when you can potentially save a turn on you next production project ?
     
  12. Grubsnik

    Grubsnik Chieftain

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    The real trick happens when you get your growth a little faster without sacrificing your production queue.

    Simple example:
    You have the option of working a mined Hill with iron(4 production) for more production or an unimproved grassland cow tile for more food. You have a food surplus of 1 and need 4 more food to get the next population.
    Scenario 1:
    You work the hill, you will get another citizen after 4 turns

    Scenario 2:
    You work the cows, and set production focus, you'll gain the next population in turn 1, he will immediately be assigned to the iron mine, meaning you don't lose the actual turn of production(because food gets calculated before production), but you will gain 3 turns working the cow tile or whatever else you might decide to do with your new population, as well as 3 more base science.
     
  13. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    By disappear, what I mean is when you generate that new citizen your food stores are reset to the base amount. Without aqueducts or medical labs the base amount is 0. With aqueducts the base is 40% of the however much it took to generate that citizen. So if it took 100 food for that citizen you'd have 40 in the stores at the start of the next turn if you have an aqueduct. The medical labs increases the amount stored by another 25%.

    Therefore, if you need 100 total for the next citizen, have stored 90 and have a surplus of 11 food, you'll have 0 with no storage buildings, 45 with aqueduct and 65 with both aqueduct and medical lab, not 1, 46 and 66 from that extra 1 food that you didn't need to grow the next turn.
     
  14. Ravellion

    Ravellion Prince

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    Although micro is important, I'd say that your example of "how not to do it" is flawed. That first picture isn't "on production focus" at all; yes, it is switched on, but with all citizens locked the computer can't make any decisions. It's like switching the on/off button on a device that isn't plugged in.
     
  15. pkf

    pkf Warlord

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    actually, since the surplus food gets carried over (not the one your new citizen is generating - so production focus always) i stopped maxing hammers before growth. reason is i usually want to grow again in 3-4 turns and you need the surplus food to keep that rate.

    hence, i would not advise simply maxing hammers the turn before you grow.
     
  16. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Sorry, Monthar, but this isn't right. Excess food produced on the turn a citizen is created is preserved and flows into the food bucket for the next citizen. For details, including screenshots showing food overflow, see the DC 10 thread (starting at post 203 and subsequent discussion): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12311554
     
  17. Stone_Age

    Stone_Age Chieftain

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    While the food carries over, does the fact that the new citizen's food does not count on the turn that the city grows still valid? Is that the reason why high level player use production focus while locking down food tiles? Because the new citizen's food does not count but his hammers do?
     
  18. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    This looks pretty tedious, you guys.
     
  19. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    Here's how you do this (looks counter-intuitive):

    Wrong: Working the horses with 1f4h yield
    Spoiler :


    Correct: Working a tile with more food like this 2f1h tile
    Spoiler :


    This way you'll end up with 1 more food than if you worked the horses but still the same amount of hammers as if you worked the horses (and in this case also 1 more faith). The wonder showing as if it needed 1 more turn doesn't matter as the new born citizen will be assigned to the horses and get the 4 hammers from there before this turn ends which will make it 6 turns again (so 5 turns left after the turn is played).
     
  20. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    Exactly what I mentioned. Only the newborn citizen's automatically selected tile's food yield gets lost due to sequencial yield calculation. Thus most people thinking theyre minmaxing area in essence doing nothingnor the exact opposite

    In the op last ss because grown citzen is forced to work a 2f2h tile, 2f was wasted whereas if he shifted a mine to a farmed hills, he wouldve netted the same total hammes and +2f carried over
     

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