Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont)

[embryodead]

Arathron,
A lot of buildings can be race-specific and your ideas for them are good, though I would leave some common stuff for all races, ie. Shrine (you can still make civ-specific graphic for that: like nature's shrine and sacrifical altar by Drift). Race-specific buildings can be done with non-era techs.

You shouldn't cripple Dwarves and Elves, they are already crippled too much because of their homelands. Believe me, I have fantasy mod that I tested already - Dwarves and Elves have both really small cities and grow slowly, they have good production though (hills & forests). Of course assume we pre-place Elves in forests and Dwarves in hills & mountains for each game, otherwise it doesn't apply. But we don't want a Dwarf kingdom in grassland areas and Lorien randomly placed on the desert, do we? Also you can't make different food-to-grow settings, there's only one global value.

There is an option to totally overhaul the food system, for example add +1 food everywhere and make 1 citizen eat 3 food. This way forests and hills support 2/3 of a citizen (not 1/2) while irrigated plains still support 1. It works ok, though I removed it from my mod because I couldn't stand the mess in city screen (for example irrigated bonus grassland with cattle and road = 9 icons...).

 

[Noldodan]

Good ideas, Arathorn II, son of Arador! I'm surprised that it took you this long to find this mod!

 

[Celeborn]

hmmm... some good ideas...

welcome to the madhouse Arathorn

and a fitting name as well

*ponders the path of the ideas*

im stopping making the bix for now as this has goten a bit overwhelming and i would like to do it a big chunk at a time...
also with all the ideas we need to finalize a few more things before i can start in earnest....

 

[Noldodan]

Well, we COULD start with a better tech tree. Anybody able to do that? (so says the editor-illiterate one...)

 

[AlcTrv]

anything I can do to help? I'm editor illiterate, but I know quite a bit about tolkien. Tech descriptions (I'm not good with Sim tho)

 

[PCHighway]

Arathorn-
You can upgrade a unit you can't build, as long as you can build the upgraded unit (e.g. whatever resource requirements the upgraded unit has, you have available). For example, if the initial unit requires Dark Matter and iron, but the upgrade only requires iron, you can upgrade to it, if you have iron. Of course, the upgrade, not requiring Dark Matter, can be freely built, which is a bit of a problem for Nazguls. Let me think on that one a bit.

I don’t think it’s possible to do so, for instance. Lets say Mordor starts with the nine, to prevent them from being used so early on, we make them immobile. At the end of the second age they upgrade to the ‘black riders’ and thus become mobile. Now, since we don’t want any more black riders buildable than the nine, we make it so the upgrade is.... what? How could we make it so the unit is not buildable, but still the upgrade remains? This is the riddle.

Arathorn-
Building suggestions....

First, categorize them. Research-improving buildings, happiness buildings, production improving buildings, corruption-fighting buildings, military buildings, other buildings.

Do you want universal buildings or race-specific? In many ways, race-specific make more sense, but they will be a fair bit more work that way. Since most of the units are race-specific (from what little of the threads I've read so far), why don't we make the buildings that way, too? Or a mix'n'match?

Available to all would be things like barracks and harbors.

Example: Elvish buildings....
- Light to the Stars -- available very early, gives 1 happy face
- Narya -- Small Wonder -- functions like Forbidden Palace
- Other two rings work the same (as an idea, since the Three served to remove the world-weariness of the elves, which I see as corruption effecting elves)
- Smithy -- add 25% to production (pre-req for one of the Three?)
- Ancient Knowledge (Ancient Person?) -- +50% research

(Yes, this is very Third Age specific. If you want to go older, you have things like the Light of the Stars as a Wonder of the World, giving happiness. Or things of that nature, but following the storyline as Tolkien wrote it is too difficult, IMO.)

Hobbits:
- Museum (bonus to happiness?)
???

Men
- Palantiri to act as FPs for them (less than the full 7, probably)
- Many of the Civ3 buildings would be appropriate here, I think

Sauron (Morgoth?)
- Breeding Pits (ideally would make unit costs cheaper but not affect shield cost of buildings. I have no idea if that is possible.)
- Forge (production bonuses)
- Prisons (anti-corruption, like courthouses. Maybe even like Police Stations, with anti-war-weariness, too.)

Dwarves:
- Forges (production bonus)
- Markets (cash bonus)
- Mines (cash bonus)

All sounds good, but we should make the names a little more unique, for instance, the Dwarves can build a Forge, which should probably be better than Mordors, as far is producing shields goes. While Mordors gives them less shields, but more of a food bonus. They may need lots of food if go with the older idea, the one that makes it so they require a population point for each unit.

Arathorn-
Beyond that, though, I want to open a whole 'nuther can-of-worms, and ask if it's possible/desirable to REALLY make the races different.

For example, Hobbit workers require no population to build. Dwarvish towns take double food to grow (so 80 instead of 40). Elvish settlers require 3 pop to make, so that they would flourish with large cities but then diminish gradually (I think would ge the game effect, unless they go a-conquering). With these ideas, razes instead of captures would almost have to be the rule. Can that be done?

You can do a lot more things with these ideas....

I hope I contributed a bit -- a starting point, if nothing else. Plus, it's an easy way to subscribe to this thread!

Arathorn

I like these ideas also, but the way I envisioned it everything would be very different. For instance, if Mordor requires food to make it’s population sky rocket, they will not need to build the Middle Earth equivalent of an aqueduct.

Also, C3C has much to offer, and I believe that it may be possible to make Balrogs and Dragons part of the Mordor package . Which I will embellish on when it finally comes out.
Rest assured Arathorn, each civ will have weaknesses and bonuses for their culture, and indeed, some will have abilities that other don’t.

Ok people, I have been thinking about some things, for instance. How should we represent the Wainriders? I think it would be better if we made them a unit for the Easterners, two units in fact. Lets say we give them a no-population point settler, that looks like a wagon (Krytens) we will obviously call it a wain. It could act as a land transport (yeah, it may be lost on the AI but it still must be included) Plus it can settle, and defend it's self.
Perhaps a cheaper (no support cost perhaps?) foot infantry for the second unit, that has a special ability.
I have been busy lately, is there something I was supposed to do? Mrtn, did you want me to do something with the building sheet?

 

[PCHighway]

Am I going to have to start talking to myself once more? Not to say the conversation wouldn't be scintillating, mind you. Lets talk about buildings, we shouldn’t start working on graphics for those just yet. But as mrtn mentioned, we should get some ideas going.

Mordor.
King: Sauron’s the best choice, IMHO. If we put Melkor we would be having a ‘war of the gods’ type of thing going on, probably a little to much over the top.

UU: Well, since they have their own unit line I don’t really find this necessary as far as graphics go. So Lets give it to what mrtn thought of, the Uruk-hai swordsman Kinboat made, with 5.5.2 stats did you say?

Bonuses: Militaristic and Industrious? Or Expansionist? I would go with industrious as Sauron has early ties to Aulë.
Color: Black (yes it’s there)
Flags-
Governor: Manage Production and Citizens

Build often:
Defensive & Offensive Land units
Growth
Production
Explore

Never build:
Happiness (joking! Or am I )

Title: Lord? Dark Lord? Vampire ?

Aggression Level: 5

Gender: Male (mrtn, why are there two gender boxes?)

Cities [I know of] :
Capital: Utumno
Lugbúrz
Angbad
Minas Morgul
Cirith Ungol
Narchost
Carchost
Dol Guldur

Great Leaders:
Lord of the Nazgûl
Mouth of Sauron
Gothmog of the Nazgûl

Notes on this:
For the cities, I think we should let Mordor start with two settlers, but require a tech to be able to build more. They should also have some type of buildings unique to them, perhaps a cheap wonder. I have two reasons for saying this but I can only say one of them, which is to expand their cultural borders to their fullest extent.
Leaders, I normally would have put in Gothmog lord of the Balrogs, and Glaurung father of the Dragons, and Ancalagon the Black. But if would look strange if you got a message: ‘Ancalagon the Black has arisen from this battle’! And he looks like and old guy with a staff.

 

[Fier Canadien]

Originally posted by PCHighway

Cities [I know of] :
Capital: Utumno
Lugbúrz
Angbad
Minas Morgul
Cirith Ungol
Narchost
Carchost
Dol Guldur

Great Leaders:
Lord of the Nazgûl
Mouth of Sauron
Gothmog of the Nazgûl

Everything looks good, exept this. For cities->Capital=Barad Dur (!)
Seems that you messed up Mordor and old Utumno/Angband. If you were about to merge the two, wouldn't it look strange to have only one mean civ, with to separate zone, one in the East of the Wild and the other in the north of Beleriand? Wouldn't corruption destroy that civ?

Wasn't Gothmog the lord of the Balrogs? And I think that the Lord of the Nazgùl in the "Unfinished Tales".

 

[PCHighway]

Good catch there(and I repeat mrtn's words), I was thinking like this, that Utumno used as a capital, could then be destroyed earlier on, and yet the Evil civ would still remain. Good point about the corruption, perhaps Mordor should get a specific government?
Gothmog seems to be a popular name. In RotK Gothmog takes over for the 'Witch King' when he is slain by Eowyn.
The Encyclopedia of Arda.

I mention Gothmog of the Balrogs in the part after the civ, under 'notes'.

 

[AlcTrv]

Guess nobody cares

And also, use the orc from the beginning of Two Towers who was head of the Sauron Orcs (blanking on name) as a leader. Also, there was Ancalagog (sp?) the Lord of Dragons

 

[PCHighway]

Well as it stands, no one is really doing anything except Celeborn. We are trying to do stuff to make it easier for him, such as the unit lines, and civ info. So we don't really have civilopedia info as of yet. But if you want to help me , we could try making up some civ info sheets. I was thinking of working on the Elves next, the Noldorian elves in fact. Could you find some cities at this site? The Encyclopedia of Arda. Or from the books (the site is easier).

Should be easy to get acquainted with the site, if you don’t want to just say so, or if you have any questions you can ask here or PM me. Remember, not the Sindarian elves, just the Noldorian (high elves).

Ancalagon the Black was the greatest of the dragons, a new breed, the king of the winged dragons. Indeed only Eärendil could stop him, he cast them down in the final battle when the Valar came to Middle-earth again, Eärendil in his ship, along with the Eagles of Manwë fought a Dragon ‘fleet’ let by Ancalagon the Black who was defeating the Valar army. When Ancalagon was vanquished he fell from the sky and crushed the Thangorodrim Mountains as he fell.

Did that Orc have a name?

 

[Celeborn]

hmmm...

before i continue working on the bix i would like if we could get the basic tech tree sorted out, as that would make work on the mod much easier later one... (I dont fancy going to every building and unit and changing the techs to those they are supposed to be)

 

[Mithadan]

The Orc's name was Azog.

Isn't it a tad repetetive to have the "Lord of the Nazgûl" and "Gothmog of the Nazgûl" as two separate great leaders? Personally, I like "Witch-King" better than both. I swear there are Numenorean names out there for most, if not all, of the Ringwraiths, which would work like a charm if they could be rustled up. I'll ask my band of loyal followers if they can hunt them down. Gothmog sounds so much better as the name of the Balrog of Balrogs.

Bolg was Azog's son, which could come in handy too.

If we have dragons for great leaders, that might be wacky graphics-wise. Unless we can make Mordor Armies a special graphic that was a dragon. Woah, weird idea man.

I'm...too...tired...to...be...doing...this...!

 

[Fier Canadien]

Ñoldor(1) (Ngoldor, later became Noldor)
High Elves, Exiles, Deep Elves, Sword Elves

Background:
The second group of elves to depart from Cuiviénen under the lead of Finwë. Upon arrival in Valinor, the Ñoldorin people forged a grreat friendship with Aulë. Thus, they were enthrusted with the greatest skill with stone and metals of any of the Children of Iluvatar(2). It is Finwë's elder son, Fëanor (Curufinwë) that forged the three Silmarili, the holy jewels that were enchanted with the light of the Two Trees. However, when Morgoth was set free again, he became jealous of these jewels. Hence he begun to corrupt the Ñoldor with his dark speeches of hatred. When Morgoth and Ungweliantë(3) destroyed the Two Trees, Fëanor prefered to keep the jewels instead of giving them to Yavanna to restore the Two. But Morgoth had already claimed the jewels, and killed Finwë who attempted to stop him. When Fëanor heard news from the sack, he made a speech before the host of the Ñoldor, the Oath of Fëanor. He swared to wage endless war against any creature that held the Silmarili until he came back in possesion of the three jewels. At this very moment, the host of the Ñoldor set forth towards Alqualondë, the great haven of the Teleri, to sail to MiddleEarth. Upon arrival in Alqualondë, Fëanor asked the help of Olwë, lord of the Teleri, to take his people to MiddleEarth. But Olwë refused. The Ñoldor drew their swords and seized the Swanships, by killing almost all elves of Alqualondë. This event is known as the Kinslaying, and is the source of the Doom of the Ñoldor. The Ñoldor began to load unto the ships, but there wasn't enought of them to transport the entire host. Thus, Fëanor gave the order to the other host to continue North untill he comes back with the ships to take them to MiddleEarth. At the moment when Fëanor was setting sail toward MiddleEarth, Námo(4) came and cursed the Ñoldor never to set foot again in Valinor. Thus, Fëanor set sail and the other host, led by Fingolfin, goes North. When the ships arrived in the land of Lammoth. Fëanor gave the order to burn the ships. The fire was so great that the host remaining in Valinor saw it and understood that Fëanor would not come back. They then tried to pass in MiddleEarth by the pass of the Helcaraxë. Half of the elves who passed there died or were lost in the Grinding Ice. During this time, the host of Fëanor went straight to Angband. The host was embushed and Fëanor's group separated by the Army of the Balrogs. Fëanor was engulfed in flames and, tough he killed his opponents, he also died. Later, when the other host arrived, tensions appeared between the Seven sons of Fëanor and the people of Fingolfin. But they remained united, under the rule of Fingolfin, and they laid siege to Angband, untill the Battle of Sudden Flame. Then, the Exiles separated in two, the host of the Seven sons, who settled in Himring, and the host of Turgon (Fingolfin being dead after dueling with Morgoth), who settled in the hidden realm of Gondolin. Gondolin was destroyed and five of the seven sons died before the War of Wrath. When this war ended, the two remaining sons of Fëanor stole the two liberated Silmarili and were burned by them because they had become evil. One of the two cast himself into the Encircling Sea, and the other still wanders as a menestrel in black. The remains of the Ñoldor came back in Valinor during the Second and Third ages, the Ñoldor to come back being Galadriel (half Ñoldo, a quarter Teler and a quarter Vanya).

King: Fëanor (or Finwë, Fingolfin, Gil Galad, Turgon, …)

Unique Unit: Sword Elf (the Ñoldor were the only elves to prefer the use of sword to the use of bows, thus the nickname "Sword Elves")

Bonuses: Millitaristic and Scientific
Color: Grey (???)
Flags: -
Governor: Manage production and happiness, emphasise production and commerce

Build often:

• *Culture
  *Science
  *Happiness
  *Trade

Never build: Artillery

Title: High King

Aggression: 4 or 5

Gender: Male

Cities(to be completed):
Gondolin
Vinyamar
Himring
Minas Tirith (or Tol Sirion)
???

Leaders:
Fingon
Celebrimbor
Finrod Felagund
Fingolfin

Notes: Everything is ad memorem, so feel free to correct.
1. The "ñ" dissapeared with the shibboleh of Fëanor. All "ñ" were morphed to "n" or "ng" if realy needed.
2.Dwarves are not of the children of Iluvatar.
3.Full name of Ungoliant
4.Or his herald, i'm not sure. Námo is the true name of "Mandos" (->Judge)

 

[PCHighway]

Very Nice Fier Canadien ! Only some typos that I could see, the rest is immaculate!
Good point on the civilopedia entries, we should try (inspired, you make it look so easy) and make some more for the others. Good point on artillery, but wouldn’t it be easier not to let them build those units? Who used artillery beside the enemy?

*sigh* I hate doing tech trees. But I suppose it must be done, why not follow a generic one, then we can fill in the names later. I don't think we should have many techs, but they should take longer to study.

I call them of the Nazgûl because I didn't want to confuse anyone with Gothmog of the Balrogs who is far more famous. How about we call one the Witch King (I Know you’re a fan), and the other Gothmog of the Nazgul . Wasn't Azog the Orc that took Moria? And whom Nain defeated? I don't think he was mentioned in the TT at all, only in the appendix of RotK. In the FotR, there is a leader Orc leader at the end, who attack the camp, and then in the beginning of the TT he takes Merry and Pippin. I believe that is who AlcTrv is talking about. I don't think he had a name. On the other side Azog is great! Even if he wasn't under Saurons control, which reminds me, finding leaders for Isengard will be very difficult (i.e. a pain in the ass) .

Hmm, got to love those loyal followers .

Hmm, got to love those loyal followers .
A thought on the Civilopedia, perhaps we should add some famous battles of Middle-earth. We could just add into there to make into more of an 'encyclopedia' of sorts.
A thought on the Civilopedia, perhap we should add some famous battles of Middle-earth. We could just add into there to make into more of an 'encylopedia' of sorts.
Ah yes, the gathering is upon us.

 

[Fier Canadien]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Who used artillery beside the enemy?

Hmmm… The Easterling could use a kind of "Elephant mounted artillery" unit. Manwë's eagles could be considered as artillery, somehow, but shouldn't be playable. Ye olde Caradhras could have artillery too…(imagine that: you are bombarded by a mountain!)

I believe that the Nandor archers should have a weak one tile artillery to represent their skill with bows. The dwarves could also have some kind of bulky, cumbersome, mountain passing artilley. Mens could have some kind of ballista, but make it costly to make it rare.

Gondolin could have some kind of movement 0, long range artillery to represent the city's defense system (they say that they used some kinds of catapults in Lost Tales v.2, if I remember well).

But artillery doesn't realy fit in the Tolkien universe, Ëa.

 

[Mithadan]

Whoops, I was seriously sleep deprived. I thought "head of Sauron's orcs" meant something about writing his name on a head of somebody else. Now that I see the question aright (I think), I believe the orc's name was Grishnákh.

Now what was the name of his White Hand counterpart, the guy he was always bickering with? That would be one leader for the Saruman civ, anyway...

The only real Nazgûl name I have got so far (from my trusty friends over at MEO VN Vault) is Khamûl, the Black Easterling, lieutenant of Dol Guldur. That would be a cool name. Maybe that's all that's to be had?

But, isn't the Witch-King the same guy as Gothmog of the Nazgûl? I don't think we should have two great leaders that are the same guy...except that there's this neat timeline from that Encyclopedia of Arda place: went "into the shadows" in 2nd Age 3441, reappeared in 3rd Age 1300. So I guess he could appear twice! Hmmm.

I still don't like "Gothmog of the Nazûl" as a title, though. How about just "Lord of the Nazgûl" as his second incarnation? The Witch-king of Angmar would be his first appearance, then. Plus, there seems to be a whole ream of other cool titles for this guy: Black Captain, Captain of Despair, Dwimmerlaik, Lord of Morgul, Lord of the Nine Riders, Sorcerer... I think Dwimmerlaik has a certain ring to it!

Artillery: Southrons/Haradrim rode the oliphaunts, not the Easterlings, I think. Mûmakíl is such a cool word. (I'm totally guessing with all these accent marks). I think our best use of bombardment units, other than siege machines, would be missile-units like archers, javelin-throwers, axe-throwers (although even the last two I've never really heard of in Tolkien). I'm not really excited about men and dwarves having some sort of rudimentary ballistae or "mountain passing artillery." Maybe for the latter we could simulate with "falling rocks" or something! Good idea about the Eagles, but that Canadian guy is probably right, they shouldn't be playable. Er, that is, which civ would get the Great Eagles? That would be pretty funky, though, having air units in the game. Hmmm. The Gondolin defensive bombard would be neat, as long as the graphic wasn't of some kind of machine. Not even the twisted minds of evil thought of siege machines until the war of the ring, and we all know how much Tolkien loved machinery.

Grond, blasting fire, I think we're better off giving (heavy) artillery (machines) just to late 3rd Age Sauron, (gunpowder) ghâsh to late 3rd Age Saruman, and then for the most part, (light) artillery (archery etc.) to everyone else. The exceptions we could make (Mountains, Gondolin, Falling Rocks) would have to resemble something more organic...no ideas there, sorry!

 

[PCHighway]

LoL, I think the Caradhras using a bombard ability would indeed be a nice touch (and more importantly, an achievable one) . But this would, for obvious reasons be only in the map of Middle-earth, it would be used as an Immobile air unit, placed on a airstrip (which wouldn’t look like one, more like pile of rocks) this hearkens to mrtn’s idea with the dragons, a quite genius one I might add. It would be a barbarian unit also. I don’t think the Eagles would work, unfortunately, as they would (if placed on the map as barbarians) attack everyone, even the herald of Manwë himself! Unless, we added a new civ for the Middle-earth map\mod? Wait I’m getting a brainwave here, lets say we added a civ? (Taking a tip from AoK) A ‘Gaia’ civ so to speak? It would be allied with the ‘good’ civs. We could have another, an ‘evil Gaia’ or should I say ‘Cronos’ that would act for the Evil civs, this way the Orc armies wouldn’t be attacked by the brigand Dragons\Balrogs in the 3rd age mod? It would make the map more interactive to the Tolkien world.

I am against any archer unit having a range bombard more than 0, we can represent the particular units skill by increasing it’s bombard attack and in other ways. As it would be used to destroy barracks in cities, if used any other way. Remember, all archer have a bombard range of 0 in the mod, so when attacked they get to fire a ‘free’ shot at the attacker, much like a catapult.

Like the idea about the city defenses, yet I don’t remember any catapult type units, only many, many, many, arduous walls that made for a somewhat patient-testing read .

Funny you should mention sleep now, as I am rather tired myself (have you heard about the midnight rambler...) In any case your excuse is making perfect sense at the moment and I am indeed wondering if you got it right the first time.

You do know that ‘MEO VN Vault; means nothing to us, all I can gather is that ‘ME’ is Middle-earth, and the ‘O’ means online, as there is a MMORPG coming out by that name. Obviously the vault stands for some kind of message board, how else could you ‘ask someone’ unless you are indeed a safe-keeper of a Tolkien-Bank in Flanders, which is also making perfect sense at this time of the morning.

You must still have some morning grogginess your self, in the Encyclopedia of Arda it says: “Gothmog
Lieutenant of Morgul at the Battle of the Pelennor
Lieutenant to the Lord of the Nazgûl at the Battle of the Pelennor - he took command of the forces of Minas Morgul after the loss of his lord.”

I do agree about the Dwimmerlaik, lets drop the ‘witch-king’ and go with this. I am also confused about this elephant thing you guys have going, I don’t see them using artillery on t he level of destroying a barracks or ‘temple’.

Good point on the gunpowder, in Helms deep I believe they broke open a gate using the stuff. Indeed, did not the Orc’s placing it die in the blast? How about a Cruise missile type unit that comes at the end. (Think Petard in AoKtC)

 

[embryodead]

Adûnaphel
Akhôrahil
Dwar
Hoarmûrath
Indûr
Khamûl
Ren
Ûvatha
+ The Witch-King

I prefer those names, along with the titles like The Black Easterling, The Quiet, The Blind Sorcerer etc. are the most human-friendly, though they came from ME:LE (the card game) and are now common, some purists may not accept them.

Oh and if I can have any vote.. Bombardment for archers, elephants etc. are bad bad bad. Artillery is artillery lets keep it. A cruise missile orc is a nice idea though.

Gaian civs are nice idea too, though only possible if C3C offers scripting. I tried all tricks to make civs friendly or unfriendly to each other in warhmmer mod (by favorite/shunned government and culture groups) and still weird things happen like Chaos allying with High Elves to destroy Wood Elves.

 

[Fier Canadien]

Well, the "Gaïa" civ could have "Gracious" standing towards Elves, Men, Dwarves and Hobbits right from the beginning, with a 0 agression. That way, only a real backstabber or treaty breaker (like the Ñgoldor) could get it angry.

It would have "0" rating towards Evil, tough.

But, anyway, how many Evil civs do we have? I'd think about Mordor, Angband (the dwarves must have something to battle against), "Melko's Empire"(???). What about more? A goblin civ or two, lots of barbs (dragons?) in Forodwaith?

And how do we make the Gondor hates Umbar, the Wainriders and all other mens exept Anor and Rohan if they are of the same cultural group? Would we put the "evil" houses of men in the "Evil forces" group? Would that be right?