Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont)

[PCHighway]

Well, the Gaia civs should work fine.
C3C info
Read it! It isn't scripting per se, but would work fine for us, as we went into this not expecting scripting.

embryodead- A cruise missile orc is a nice idea though.

LoL, yeah archers that can shoot a extra square is crazy! Cruise missile Orcs however...

As far as evil civs go, I was thinking an Orc civ would be a baaad idea, and wouldn't qualify as a civ. Isengard, the Easterners, and of course Mordor, would represent it nicely, of course, the map will be slanted for the Evil civ advantage, to an extent.

 

[embryodead]

I mean *if* the mod is going to be done after C3C... remember it's actually far from its release. And yeah, no need for "orc" civ, I guess civs that used orcs are enough.

 

[Mithadan]

I'm going to see Björk and Radiohead tonight, so no posting from me!

Too bad we couldn't separate bombardment of units from bombardment of city improvements, cuz I don't like the way it looks having archers engaging in hand-to-hand combat with melée fighters...oh well. I didn't know it was such a bad idea to have archers as bombard units. But at least I understand how you make a defensive-only bombard, now.

No clue what that Elephant artillery idea was on about. Maybe archers sitting on top of it?

MEO Vault is a great community (or was) of posters in cahoots with the various development teams (three, at last count) making Middle-Earth Online, that MMORPG that's hopefully coming out someday. The boards used to boast the most impressive slate of Tolkien scholars I'd ever come accross. But after two dev teams got sacked, and now that there's an official MEO board, the activity has dropped.

All I've been given for Nazgûl names, so far, is Khamûl, and that ICE (some pen and paper RPG company) invented names for the rest. I assume those are the names embryodead posted above. In my opinion, there seems to be enough material in the genuine texts for there to be no need for us to rely on extra-textual sources for names and ideas. "My two cents," as some say.

 

[AlcTrv]

Grishnakh was the Mordor orc at the beginning of the Two Towers, according to the book
Ugluk was the Isengard Uruk-hai

And, unlike the movie, SAURON BRED URUK-HAI FIRST. They first showed up when attacking Osgiliath. So they should both have them

 

[AlcTrv]

Oh and I am pretty sure the names of the nazgul were

Úlairë Attëa,
Úlairë Cantëa,
Úlairë Enquëa
Úlairë Lemenya
Úlairë Nelya,
Úlairë Nertëa
Úlairë Ostëa
Úlairë Toldëa
The Witch-king, Lord of Nazgul, Dark Rider, etc

I posted that in the last topic too, I forget the site I got it from

 

[Mithadan]

Well, those names sound a little more Quenyan than do the ICE ones, at least. Too bad you forgot where you got them from (I didn't realise you had posted them in the previous thread).

Wholeheartedly agreed on both Mordor and Isengard having Uruk-hai. Thanks for recalling the name of the Isengarder guy, BTW. My memory sucks.

 

[embryodead]

ICE (iron crown, makes of card games) names are, or at least sound like, Numenoran so at least they are readable

 

[AlcTrv]

I'll try to find the site, if I can. And up Grishnakh and Ugluk in Two Towers-Chapter NAme The Uruk-Hai (or something like that).

 

[AlcTrv]

Alright, I searched, and it was Decipher, and heres how they explain it http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/articles/2001/namingthenazgul.html

The names mean Second Nazgul, third nazgul, etc. in Quenya apparently

 

[Mithadan]

Ah, that makes sense. It does sound funny, on second thought, that the Nazgûl would all have nice High Elven names. The Adûnaic sound of the ICE names, even if conjectural, sounds better to my ear...now....

 

[mrtn]

I've been out in the Archipelago for a few days, and it seems this thing has got up some steam again.
I think the Nazguls should have names in english or some bad guy language, not in elvish.
It seems I'm but I still think we should decide what the buildings should be, so we can make up a tech tree.

before i continue working on the bix i would like if we could get the basic tech tree sorted out, as that would make work on the mod much easier later one... (I dont fancy going to every building and unit and changing the techs to those they are supposed to be)

Celeborn says it all, really.

 

[Noldodan]

Originally posted by mrtn
I think the Nazguls should have names in english or some bad guy language, not in elvish.

Well, the Nazgul DID have names in Westron and the Black Speech, except we never learn them. And seeing as how the only Tolkien language that we can put hings into for sure is Quenya... We're kinda stuck. Unless you want to make up names out of the blue?

 

[mrtn]

embryodead posted some names here.
The Quenya names is, if i understand things right, made up "out of the blue", and then translated to quenya. I can't read quenya, and I don't intend to learn it just for this mod. And having the names in quenya feels as if you make a WW2 scenario, and have the German leader's name as "Adolf Gitler", the russian name for him.
I prefer inventing names in English to inventing names in quenya, but I think we can find a short but correct list.
The Witch King
The Mouth of Sauron
Grishnakh
(maybe Bolg and Azog too, depending on how we treat the Misty Mountain Orcs)
is a start, I think there are other names up-thread.

 

[PCHighway]

No one expects you to learn Quenya just for the MOD mrtn. It wasn’t easy keeping the thread going without you to answer me. And welcome back
I think it would be wise to have the MOD released after conquests, I am a Beta Tester for it and can’t see anything but a primitive version of ‘LotM’ working without C3C, embyodead. It’s ultimately Celeborns choice anyway, but I think he was looking forward to have a couple of months to work on it, I would anyway.

Aside from that, not exactly sure what mrtns going on about, it almost sounds like the names of the units should be as close to the native tongue of that race as possible. And then again it also sounds like they should be in the ‘common tongue’ i.e. English. I am all for the native tongue way of doing things.

BtW congratulations on your post count mrtn .

 

[embryodead]

As for the names, I am for anything that is readable for everyone... Not only tolkien-fans, but also people that have read the trilogy once, and didn't touch silmarillion and learned quenya...

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by embryodead
As for the names, I am for anything that is readable for everyone... Not only tolkien-fans, but also people that have read the trilogy once, and didn't touch silmarillion and learned quenya...

Hear, hear!
PCH, yes, I prefer them in English if there is different names available.

BtW congratulations on your post count mrtn .

Yes, I broke the one thousand eleventyfirst - barrier.

THE BL**DY BUILDINGS!
Original_____In the mod
Palace_________same
Barracks_______same (mod the graphics a little)
City Walls______same
Library_________same?
Marketplace_____same
Aqueduct_______same
Granary________same
Temple-________same? (does anyone pray to gods in lotr?)
Courthouse_____Gallows?
Harbor_________same, need new graphics though
Cathedral_______?
University_______? The gondorians collected a lot of papers, but is it really a library? If not, what is it?
Bank___________? trade something?
Coastal Fortress__it's maybe easiest to delete it
Civil Defense_____Castle/Keep/something like that
Police Station_____City Guard
Commercial Dock__?
Stock Exchange___delete?
Colloseum_______delete?
Factory__________Smithy
Recycling Center__?
Manufacturing Plant_Armoury
Coal Plant________delete
Hydro plant_______delete?
Nuclear plant______delete
Solar plant________delete
Hospital__________?
Research lab______?
Mass transit_______?
SAM_____________delete
Offshore Plattform__delete?
Airport___________delete
Wealth___________PCH said something about this that I have forgotten.

Now you discuss this, or else.

 

[embryodead]

mrtn - comments.
these are mostly from my mod, though they aren't too original and can be placed anywhere

isteand of temple and cathedral - shrine and temple

Factory / Man. Plant - maybe Sawmill instead of Armory (production isn't used only for units)

harbor - middle age graphics are ok. I use ancient fishery by Ukas as pedia icon and ancient bldg icon.

marketplace - bank - stock exchange = marketplace - merchants' guild - bank

commercial dock - seafarers' guild

hospital - sewers - gfx ready by ukas

hydro plant - mill ?

Keep in mind that deleting a building from the list make aerial city view messed up and unusable. So it's to find a replacement (any, even a wonder etc.) for everything.

 

[Mithadan]

Agreed, enough about the Nazgûl names. We don't need 9 great leaders, after all. I think using non-English names is fine. Adds to the flavour. Nobody knows what Ashurbanipal means, after all, so why should they know what Azbergkhnikhluk means either? Witch-King, Khamûl, Lord of the Nazgûl, Mouth of Sauron, Grishnakh, that's plenty. Now these buildings. Hmmm.

Originally posted by mrtn
Original_____In the mod
Library_________same?
Aqueduct_______same
Temple-________same? (does anyone pray to gods in lotr?)
Courthouse_____Gallows?
Cathedral_______?
University_______? The gondorians collected a lot of papers, but is it really a library? If not, what is it?
Coastal Fortress__it's maybe easiest to delete it
Colloseum_______delete?
Factory__________Smithy
Recycling Center__?
Manufacturing Plant_Armoury
Coal Plant________delete
Nuclear plant______delete
Solar plant________delete
Hospital__________?

How about:

Temple -- Altar? (mankind did worship the Valar and call them "gods," even if that wasn't entirely orthodox. An altar is a little more 'local' than a temple, which could work okay, I think).

Cathedral -- Temple to Eru? The Numenoreans did worship Eru on the top of the Meneltarma. Maybe we could make J.S. Bach's Cathedral or the Sistine Chapel (which one gives all cities a cathedral?) into the Meneltarma or something. Even though that is, properly speaking, just the name of the mountain it was built on.

Colosseum -- Temple to Morgoth? If we're going to have some civ-specific techs or tech trees, maybe we could give the Evil races an evil happiness improvement. Unless "Altar" is sufficiently neutral, seeing how we haven't specified who is worshiping who at any given altar. Sauron did convince the Numenoreans to defile the Meneltarma and worship Morgoth there.

Aqueduct -- Houses of Healing? ("Aqueduct" just screams Roman empire. Another less RL name would be handy, but I don't know if mine is any better.)

Hospital -- boy. If we've already got houses of healing... I don't even know what these do in game! I'm trying to get an idea from Elrond's place, but that's too site-specific to give to any city of any civ... No ideas...

Courthouse -- Prison? Shirrif's Office? Gallows sounds too brutal for my liking. But only the Hobbits would have "Shirrifs" or however it's funky spelling goes.

Library -- Lore House? A "library" would be extremely "advanced" for ME, in my opinion. We need a more low-tech name for it. "Lore" is a good root, but maybe it could be integrated into a better phrase than this one.

University -- Annals? There has got to be a name for that big place in Minas Tirith that Gandalf visited looking for Isildur's Bane stuff. Annals are books, though, not buildings, nay? State Annals...City Annals...I'm drawing blanks here. If anyone's got the books, try to see what Gandalf tells the Council of Rivendell in the second half of the Fellowship of the Ring. There might be name for this place. Heck, it could qualify as a wonder, even. But then what would we call a university?! Maybe there might be some ideas if we think about monasticism...

Copernicus's Observatory (or someother science wonder) -- The White Council, maybe.

Coastal Fortress -- Fortified Harbour? Why delete it? (I never play the game far enough along to actually get to use these things.)

Coal Plant, Nuclear Plant -- some kind of Belching Pit, Furnace, Slave Works. Let's give the highly polluting production improvements to Sauron and Saruman, if possible. Again, I'm not clear how civ-specific the tech tree is going to be.

(Production Great Wonder) -- Orodruin, or the Pits of Angband, etc.??

Solar Plant -- Forge? The Elves, or at least the "High" Elves, should get nice eco-friendly production improvements. Maybe the "Low" Elves could get a recycling plant (no name ideas yet) because they might not be as clean, but at least they can clean up? (Ach, silly idea.)

Battlefield Medicine -- House of Elrond???? (We'd have to make it a great wonder, in that case, but I don't know that that's possible.)

Beats me. I'm not super creative. We could steal ideas from the various Civ 2 scenarios that were made...

 

[PCHighway]

Agree with Mithadan about the aqueduct, but remember, it has to be used by nearly all the civs, the Dwarves, Isengard, Hobbits, the whole bunch. Maybe even Mordor, we should go with something that all the large cities in LotR had. And something that also relates to a water source (you don't need an aqueduct if you have a river nearby). I would say a well, but I just don't think it sounds advanced enough, all though I do have some graphics for it.

As for Battlefield Medicine, I would either leave it the same or call it ‘healers’ or something. As this one’s name should be generic.

For wealth, I believe I said we should call it trade. I had quite a few idea on the subject in fact, I remember saying that we should have a ‘merchant’ unit that would be the only unit able to build colonies (got the idea from RoN) Dwarves would get them sooner. Are those all the buildings in that sheet you posted, I remember a lot more being filled out ?

I disagree about the language and names of things, I can’t read Quenya, or any other language that Tolkien made up, and think they would co-exist quite nicely. Besides I know a lot of people only got interested in LotR from the movies, and have no idea what happens to Frodo and Sam, yet we still are throwing in names like ‘Uruk-Hai’ and Angbad, which I assure you, they have no idea what it is. But it’s alright, just a touch of grey. In any case, I have renewed interest in LotR because of the movies also, but you have to think, how many of us know a lot about a War Hammer embryodead? Does that mean we won’t play it because it relates to something we know nothing of, no, it means we want to play it so we will learn more of it. All we need are good, explanatory civilopedia entries, and we should be fine. Having a couple of great leaders in the native tongue is not something to get riled up about, just something to put in Mordor’s civilopedia entry.

Almost forgot, it was brought to my attention by a friend, that in the Two Towers, Lugbúrz is used to explain the entire of Mordor’s kingdom, not just Barad-dûr as it say in TEA (The encyclopedia of Arda). Does anyone know if this is true, I don’t remember them using Lugbúrz in such a sense in the Silmarillion.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
...For wealth, I believe I said we should call it trade. I had quite a few idea on the subject in fact, I remember saying that we should have a ‘merchant’ unit that would be the only unit able to build colonies (got the idea from RoN) Dwarves would get them sooner. Are those all the buildings in that sheet you posted, I remember a lot more being filled out ?

...Does anyone know if this is true, I don’t remember them using Lugbúrz in such a sense in the Silmarillion.

You got to give all worker actions to a unit to be able to give it the worker-ai-strategy. So, good idea, but wrong!
This is all buildings, but not the wonders. I thought that if we start with these, we might actually get something done. We can do the wonders in a later batch.
I don't remember Lugbúrz at all.