Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (deca)

[Celeborn]

LotR Thread I:
LotR Modders UNITE!!! Half-way-point.
LotR Thread II:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1015305#post1015305 Half-way-point.
LotR Thread III:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont) Half-way-point.
LotR thread IV:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (4) Half-way-point
LotR thread V:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (5)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60650 Half-way-point
LotR thread VI:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (part-hex)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63116 Half-way-point
LotR thread VII:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (septa)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64619 Half-way-point
LotR thread VIII:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (octa)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67049 Half-way-point
LotR thread IX:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (nona)[latest] Half-way-point

It isn't necessary for the regulars to read this part, feel free to skip it.
We started working on this .mod as a ‘gathering’ of Modders, who had an acute interest in Lord of the Rings and Middle-earth. This is a continuation of nine threads created and discussed, as seen at the links above. We made some significant progress in actually working together to get a collaboration of ideas, to please everyone. This will take some time, but should be beneficial for all LotR fans in the long run. The more we professionally discuss our varied beliefs, the closer to the end we will be. As each thread goes by we gather more of these 'LotR' modders. However, it is paramount that we get the earliest edition out as soon as possible. This will allow us to test and mold our idea's while we use in a playable biq. Yet still, it is important to be patient, it always takes a long time to make a mod from scratch for one person (only one can work on the .biq). Look at DyP and TAM. Both have been worked on since C3C’s release and the c3c updates are not yet available. Making this a quality project will take time, but we still have hopes that the beta will be out sometime in February.

Thread Log
-In the Third installment of our collaboration, significant work was completed on the buildings\wonder\improvement front. Unfortunately it was sort of sporadic, and it's hard to define just what we did . Discussion of the maps also took place, at which point Yoda Power offered to make an older version of Middle-earth, you can see this here.

-In the Fourth thread, we have gathered some new blood, and discussed about how to implement certain civilizations into the game, namely Isengard and Rohan. We set our course to make it clear, to stomp on the sporadic-ness of the third thread.

-In the Fifth thread, more new blood, significant progress in accumulating graphic designers, and a recession, in which the new blood has expressed their long bottled up opinions on how the mod should go. Talks on the tech tree in a forum based discussion has been put off for a bit. We should let the new (and old) idea's re-circulate, meanwhile, chat based discussion will take place at undefined periods, then re-introduced into the sixth installment of the thread.

-In the Sixth thread, believe it or not more new blood, and many of them CFC 'old-timers'. The tech tree thread should be getting a tech update, to initiate discussion about how to branch the tree itself. Lots of opinions have been rattling around, and we have gotten even more beautiful works and ideas from the unit creators\graphic designers.

-In the Seventh thread, we have developed a secure style of going about making the .bix. And that is by going tab-to-tab. For instance, we already covered the Citizen and General Settings tabs, allowing us to go in depth with the mod. Civilizations are agreed on, and soon we will start on the Civilzations tab.

-In the Eighth thread the Combat Experience is complete, and the Terrain tab is very near this goal also. Now that we wish to have a playable beta out within the month, it is very important that we come to decisions quickly and effectively. The beta itself will be somewhat hap-hazard, missing many civilopedia changes, and constantly evolving to the alpha version. If you want your vote to count, don't forget that even passing modders have their vote, then please post as quickly as possible so we can move on to the next subject. Do not be alarmed if new tabs get brought up before discussion has ended on the other. However we will make sure the vote has been tallied.

-The Ninth thread marks some changes, the release date pointing somewhere around the February month. We are down to the last three tabs in the tab system, Buildings, Units, and Civilization Advances. Some minor changes are taking place, the biggest being the additions of leaders for the civilizations, which will more than likely never be completed until the beta.

The near future should hold these tabs-
1.) Buildings
2.) Units
3.) Civilization Advances
4.) Civilizations

After this is completed, we will be at 90% completion with the mod. After this is finished, the label txt will be worked on, and corresponding art gathered. Needless to say, after this the public beta will be put up. Civilizations are supposed to be worked on through all of this.
FAQ

What is going to be in the MOD? When will it span? What are the Civs? Has work started yet? Will it be for PtW, Vanilla, or Conquests?

1.)When will it span?
Well, we decided that the Mod should start slightly before the coming of man. Like this:

• Era#1 First Age (Middle-late first age, with the arrival of man)
• Era#2 Time of the Rings (Elven supremacy and Saurons Power)
• Era#3 Time of the Númenóreans\Dark Age (Supremacy of Man, Numenor and it's later subdivisions\Last Alliance)
• Era#4 Third Age (Best known, time of the peace, yet weakened state, time of the fellowship)

This way it won’t be strange to have all civs in existence, and yet it still has the remarkable, mythological ‘old middle-earth’ in tact.

2.)What are the Civs?
To start out, we will have less civilizations than vanilla civ3. Civilizations are a problem because of lack of cities in Middle-earth. Feel free to post on this topic at any time! This is what we have so far:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/lotmTRIBES.zip

A few important Civs we have made lists for can be located here:
The Shire
Gondor
The Dwarves
Mordor
High Elves(Noldorian)

Some civs that may or may not be added, or ones that are not finished yet, can be found here:

Valinor-SoCalian
Haradrim-SoCalian
Numenor-SoCalian
Rohan-SoCalian
Arnor-SoCalian
Dale-SoCalian
Ossiriand-SoCalian
Mordor and Angband -SoCalian
Gondor-SoCalian
Hollin-SoCalian
Lorien - SoCalian
Ents-SoCalian
Dwarves -SoCalian
Haradrim (Plexus)
Mirkwood Elves (Plexus)

Thanks SoCalian!

3.) What is going to be in the MOD?
We plan on numerous versions of the Mod, most important first.

Mod Types

• Random Map Mod (regular)
• Middle Earth- Map of Middle Earth, with specific placed things (like dragons)
• Lord Of the Rings quest- (You can only choose out of 3 Civs, though the rest make an appearance, but depending on the Civ you choose, you have a specific Victory cond.)
• Older version- This will have modified ages, and different civs, such as the Vanyar, and unique buildings\wonders.

4.) Has Work Started on the .biq yet?
Yes, a communal .biq has been under way for quite some time.

5.) I would like to join in this project, is there anything I can do to make the production go faster?
Well, we will always have need of those talented artists. If you would like to make some building graphics, just pick one off the list below, but make sure work on that hasn't already started or been completed.
If you would like to make units for the game, certain ones we are looking for are:

• Silvian Archer\Elven Archer
  Thanks embryodead!!!
• Troll
  Thanks Kindred72! Great units!
• Elven Cavalry
  Thanks again embryodead!
• Dwarf Defender
  Possibly a complement Kindreds High Guard.
  Thanks mrtn\utahjazz
• Dwarf Offensive
  Another complement to Kindreds unit, this time the Ironbreaker, probably heavy armor. Somewhat like the Dwarves of Belegost, with a metal mask\helmet to protect them from heat and flame?
• Dwarf Archer
  We know from accounts that the Dwarves used missile units in defense of their towers in the days of old. We also know they were common throughout The Hobbit. This Archer would probably be heavily armored, and not agile. A more defense oriented unit.
• Dwarf Militia
  A fast runner, think Dain and the dwarves from Iron Hills. A pickaxe and a shield would be very cool.
• Medieval Worker
  A worker, more heavily clothed than the Civ3 counterpart, yet still more 'medieval' than the Civ3 Modern Worker.

Of course, beggars can't be choosers, and we would take anything LOTR (or similar) you throw at us!

Text
RRnut's been doing some civilopedia texts, post in the thread if you would like to make some of these files. We need some buildings entries, but this can be done after the beta.

6.) Will it be for PtW, Vanilla, or Conquests?
So far only a conquest version is planned, but later a PtW version might be in store. There will be no vanilla version.
-end FAQ

Resources
View the resources at this link.

Unit Lines
A word on the difference between civilizations unit lines in the RTF file. If you would like to download the Unit lists, you can do so here, they are available in two formats yet both in one .zip, the first being of better quality, the second is the lists straight forward, in standard text format.
Mrtn's Unit Lines

Overview plan- Get the FAQ in standard Wordpad and Notepad format.

Other CFC LotR\fantasy oreinted threads to look at, in no paticular order:
Embryodeads WH MOD
Embryodeads Fantasy Units Preview Thread II
Unit Preview Thread:LOTR
Middle Earth Map
ME: Lord of the Mods (Tech Tree)

 

[RRnut]

Hello,

ED, I think that you misunderstood me. I'm not changing blitz or anything else. firstly,

make all terrain cost at least two moves. this includes plains and grasslands and everything.

now make all ordinary units, all other units, ignore the move costs for plains and grasslands. that way they all move at a normal one move cost across this terrain. don't increase their move points at all.

then make the dwarven raider. stats 3-1-2 and up or something like that. Don't let it ignore plain and grassland costs, so it will still move over it at 1 a turn. instead let it ignore mountain and hill costs, so then it can move over them at 2 a turn. just an idea, not extremely realistic i think, but it might work.

RRNut

 

[embryodead]

sorry you're right, I've taken your idea for another one that was brought up this week. i'm not persuaded to accept the fact that dwarves "move faster", though this is better than dwarven cavalry.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by embryodead
...though this is better than dwarven cavalry.

So you don't like my idea for a Dwarven Pony Cataphract then?

RRNut, you would have to be very careful when implementing your idea, but I think it would work.
It could also give elven archers that doesn't run all over the place. (@embryodead: )

 

[RRnut]

Hello,

yes, it would take a good bit of work. it would be a unit that could run over two mountains or 4 spaces on roads in one turn. however, where there is no road it can only go one space. just be sure to make it rather expensive and rare. Not very realistic -- there isn't really any direct basis for it, but I think that it is needed for gameplay purposes.

I was also thinking that we should have elven cavalry ignore forest and dense forest move costs. just an idea.

RRnut

 

[SoCalian]

mrtn-
So you don't like my idea for a Dwarven Pony Cataphract then?

I'm sure Xen would.

 

[SoCalian]

mrtn-
So you don't like my idea for a Dwarven Pony C

 

[Kindred72]

Originally posted by Celeborn
Dwarf Defender
Possibly a complement Kindreds High Guard.
Thanks mrtn\utahjazz

did I miss a unit somewhere?

 

[aaglo]

dwarven cavalry?
dwafs are no horsemen

 

[embryodead]

@Kindred - yeah, Viking Swordsman by utah, scaled to 85% by mrtn

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by aaglo
dwarven cavalry?
dwafs are no horsemen

No, they're ponymen, or rather ponydwarves.

Kindred, I posted a link to that in utah's thread for the Viking Swordsman. If you don't find it I can get you a link here, just tell me.

SoCalian, isn't it Xens job to like cataphracts, whatever the color?

 

[SoCalian]

Unless some one tries to pass a persian as a byzantine.

On topic, Don't armies get a movement of 2 with foot units any way? In which case, we wouldn't need to have a fast dwarf unit, which IMHO is unrealistic. I think we should try to go with embryo's idea from WH mod.

 

[PCHighway]

quasidemo-
The best way to accomplish a fast Dwarf army is to allow the Dwarves to treat mountains and hills as roads.

Unfortunately it can't be done, but you gave me a pretty nice idea when you mentioned 'army'.

SoCalian-
On topic, Don't armies get a movement of 2 with foot units any way? In which case, we wouldn't need to have a fast dwarf unit, which IMHO is unrealistic. I think we should try to go with embryo's idea from WH mod.

What if we made a shrunken version of the Medieval age army?
Like the normal army, this unit would get the standard movement bonus for the number of units loaded. However, the dwarves would need to have a buildable army in the late first era, or very quickly in the early second era. Perhaps the equivalent of the Military Academy (for the dwarves) could be 'union of the mansions' or some other made up small wonder.
We can make the other civilizations have a buildable army come later, perhaps the early third era. On a ‘historic’ note in Middle-earth they certainly were one of the most war-prepared cultures, and the mansions wonder would refer to that. They gave\made weapons for Thingol, when he was not familiar with such things.
Now, I am willing to accept this instead of a fast unit. And maybe for some unexplainable reason (at least to me) you might find this acceptable, as opposed to a single unit with fast movement. This gives more uniqueness to the MOD, and adds more strategy to break it away from the mundane.

RRnut-
Hello,

Hmm, it seems like I started a shouting match, again. Let me see if I can offer a solution. [...]

Just an idea.
And please stop shouting!

This isn't shouting, embryodead and I are having polite discussion without the inhibitions of the normal forumer. Much more efficient.
I like the idea, but think it is to radical at this time. But most certainly we should keep it in mind, and as soon as a beta is out we can put your idea to practice, see if it works without any AI complications .

embryodead-
You comment on Explorer is really a missed one - that is exactly what mrtn pointed out, and I think Explorer is doing well in civ3. Him and scout aren't military units but single travellers, not carrying cooks, doctors and prostitutes, not worrying about logisitcs at all.

Scouts more often than not end up pillaging. To say that a dude in a loincloth -with bare hands- could pillage a road is rather wrong. Even to assume 100 dudes in loincloths could pillage the length or road with their hands, is wrong. And regardless, you can accept a group of explorers moving faster (in some cases 3X as fast, depending on the terrain) than a battalion of modern armor. You are accepting one group of men in plate mail can run as fast as a fighter jet, or a helicopter, but you can't accept a dwarven unit with 2 movement because they have shorter legs?

embryodead-
And what exactly do want to achieve by scaling down units to get more dwarves? what diversity - 4 types of dwarves with axes?

Some will have swords.
And actually, thats (what you said, that is) false. The more units available> the more units we can have> The more units we can have means more diversity. Would you rather we use only 4 units, with simple attack and defense updates over the course of the game? You would not want us to use a dwarven archer, because of preconceived misconception that a dwarf can’t use a bow?

embryodead-
AoK-AoE - Indeed I treat it as one RTS crap, they have nice buildings though (I'll look into them this weekend). I'm probably wrong, but I somehow remembered phalanx or something like that in the unit lines.

RTS crap!!??! I’ll have you know half of the names from the techs come from RTS crap, moreover, if your saying your dwarven thunderer wasn’t influenced by War Craft (an RTS game), than... er.... I'm a monkeys uncle?

Your skipping all my good points, btw.
Most notable- You have the wood elves in WH able to run two movement on every terrain that allows it (plus the ignore for woods). If you can have an entire group of infantry-military entities run fast in your game, with a blitz ability, then does it not seem strange to be un-willing to accept giving those civs (who are actually needing a fast unit) one, just one unit like this? Would you accept a fast hobbit? If so, what exactly is the problem with the taller, stronger, and faster dwarves?

Mithadan-
Sorry I can't help regarding what to do with fast dwarves. I wish I could, but I'll let you folk sort it out.

As to crossbows, I'm very happy PCH made it clear that there is no such beast in ME (although I missed that discussion, apparently). Just like fricking plate armour...

Join the anti-crossbows in Middle-earth society! It’s free, and you could be vice president, we have stickers, there is no more happening place to be.

* * * * * * * * *

 

[erez87]

Well I want to get E-mails if new stuff come from this Mod... So I leave this message

 

[embryodead]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Unfortunately it can't be done, but you gave me a pretty nice idea when you mentioned 'army'. [...]
Now, I am willing to accept this instead of a fast unit. And maybe for some unexplainable reason (at least to me) you might find this acceptable, as opposed to a single unit with fast movement. This gives more uniqueness to the MOD, and adds more strategy to break it away from the mundane.

This is becoming quite acceptable I like this idea, really. And if you wonder why, well, I can't object fast armies, as it is civ3 rule, no matter how unrealistic. And I agree it will be simply interesting.

And regardless, you can accept a group of explorers moving faster (in some cases 3X as fast, depending on the terrain) than a battalion of modern armor. You are accepting one group of men in plate mail can run as fast as a fighter jet, or a helicopter, but you can't accept a dwarven unit with 2 movement because they have shorter legs?

As for your comparisions, again I find them inaccurate - you can't compare middle ages logistics with that of modern military. Moreover, you missed my whole point on logistics by bringing up this comparision.
The fact that explorers can pillage is actually a problem of civ3 and I think most people find this quite ridiculous. Now that map making is pushed farther, I'd actually disable this ability in normal civ3 game.

Some will have swords And actually, thats (what you said, that is) false. The more units available> the more units we can have> The more units we can have means more diversity. Would you rather we use only 4 units, with simple attack and defense updates over the course of the game? You would not want us to use a dwarven archer, because of preconceived misconception that a dwarf can’t use a bow?

No, in case of LotR I don't have any objections. What I can't accept is that it will use animation of scaled down ancient bowman (or something similiarly wrong). I hate seeing graphics pretending to be something completly different. I'm not saying crossbow is much better... I just prefer to have less units, rather than dozens of "pretenders".

RTS crap!!??! I’ll have you know half of the names from the techs come from RTS crap, moreover, if your saying your dwarven thunderer wasn’t influenced by War Craft (an RTS game), than... er.... I'm a monkeys uncle?

Yes you are Dwarf Thunderer comes from WARHAMMER, a game that is in the market since the eighties and it's the most popular fantasy table-top game in the world. As for Warcraft, I knew about the graphics, but yesterday I've heard about Dwarven Gyrocopter, and now Thunderer! A person in wh-mod thread has just expressed his opinion on Blizzard stealing from GW - and it's not the first time I've heard this.
I don't care about the techs, for any mod, you can invent your own. Sorry I just think that RTS is crap as a genre. Every game looks the same, except for building and unit names/graphics

Your skipping all my good points, btw.

If I skipped something either I did agree or felt that it was irrelevant

Most notable- You have the wood elves in WH able to run two movement on every terrain that allows it (plus the ignore for woods). If you can have an entire group of infantry-military entities run fast in your game, with a blitz ability, then does it not seem strange to be un-willing to accept giving those civs (who are actually needing a fast unit) one, just one unit like this? Would you accept a fast hobbit? If so, what exactly is the problem with the taller, stronger, and faster dwarves?

Don't worry, it was really a hard decision, and I still don't like it very much . In Warhammer dwaves move 3", humans 4", elves 5" and horses 8" and elven steeds 9", so it still looks better to have fast elves rather fast dwarves, and at the same time it balances their long list of disadvantages.
I would accept a hobbit scout or something like that with "all terrain as roads", but of course I wouldn't accept 2-mp hobbit infantry.

 

[tjedge1]

Originally posted by PCHighway
RTS crap!!??! I’ll have you know half of the names from the techs come from RTS crap, moreover, if your saying your dwarven thunderer wasn’t influenced by War Craft (an RTS game), than... er.... I'm a monkeys uncle?

There's a Dwarf with a gun in War Craft!? I should have played the humans more. I missed that unit.
BTW: War Craft 3 is crap. I beat it in a week, and then not even creating my own MP maps were interesting. Too simple minded of a game (like most Blizzard products).

The real reason I posted was to say that the Army idea was a really good. Dwarves were more organized as a military than the other races early on. I see no reason they shouldn't get teh army wonder earlier. It would balance the lack of cavalry quite well, because they would be tough as individual units, but tougher in an army and still slower than cavalry.

 

[RRnut]

Hello,

Yes, I'd be willing to go with the army -- where it was rather cheap. At the beginning of the second age, espicially with short tech trees, the settler rush hasn't ended. 200 shields max for the wonder and 2 or 3 hundred for the army. just think, we can get 10 or 12 dwarves for the cost of the wonder and an army, assuming a 40 shield dwarf. I'd prefer the dwarves, let them promote and get leaders.

Also, ED, if your'e complaining about lacking dwarve archers, well, there is one thing to do .

RRNut

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Join the anti-crossbows in Middle-earth society! It’s free, and you could be vice president, we have stickers, there is no more happening place to be.

Ooh, ooh, I love clubs. I feel so in.

 

[SoCalian]

What if the dwarves had clubs(weapons I mean)?

 

[RRnut]

Oh, and sure, I'lll join the club!!! Can I be president!! I need to put some sort of club involment on my college application. But don't we need a better name? How about "Citizens of Middle Earth Against Crossbows." Or the "Middle Earth Crossbow Awareness Group -- Showing out the manifold dangers of crossbows to the ME universe."

RRnut