Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Celeborn, Oct 27, 2003.
Embryo you know you really need this too in your mod(hint)
This seems to work fine. And if this doesnt work, lets at least try n keep it simple. No 'two building lines' imho...
There is nothing here that could not work, that's why I posted it
I collected some worker props to try something in the future, though the medieval worker is really a lot of work and personally I see no problem with the ancient one.
Well, It seems like we ended up with something about the same as ordinary civ.
However, I'm still rather worried. Perhaps it is not so much with these defense bonuses. I went back yesterday and read the first two threads for the mod. It seems like, from looking at the information there, that offense will be seriously limited by the frth age. Take for example the mannish units. The best defender is the Armored Pike at a defense of 6, and the best offence is a Long Swordsman with an attack of 7. However, giving the Pike a defense bonus of over 200 % (fortified in a metro with the improvments and being attacked over a river) will make its defense 18. therefore we have a 7 attack unit attacking an 18 defense unit, and it can't even retreat. this will require something like 6 to one -- its about the same as cavs figting MIs in the open. In other words, once hospitals come about, any capturing of cities will be virtually impossible.
Oh well. I'll be away until the beginning of next week, starting tomorrow, so I can insert my own opinions in here any more. <grin>
I believe that unit stats were only proposals, and they will be completly different in the final version. If I had a vote on that topic, I would not make so big differences in stats (I don't like the idea of long swordsman being so much superior to warrior with axe, it's not like warriors vs. rifleman), and make the attack values from 50% to 150% higher than the defense.
Just as long is your happy with size one cities building Citadels, and getting a 175 defense bonus.
I agree that they will be different, but I highly doubt the first era offensive will have 2 attack, and the defender 1 defense.
As much as I like your mod, which now is the only civ3 I play, but this is one aspect I think you need to fix. Having few defenders makes the game easier, or harder. I was playing a game as the Dwarves, and with my 8 Troll Slayers I was able to wipe out Albion, who had twice as many cities as myself. Not to mention tons of those axe-throwing guys. The AI doesnt handle such leaps well. I sort of felt like I was fighting with only longbowmen, low on defense, high on attack.
Moreover I think we should try and make this game similar to Civ3, whos combat as you said earlier, is fine as is. And while the difference between a half naked warrior with an axe, and a half naked warrior with a spear isnt as pronounced as your example, it should be so. The Defensive line should be cheap, and easier to build. Yet they will be slow, and have bad attack, making them useless for anything but defending. There are tons of other games based on ancient or medieval combat. Why should a militia unit in Age of Kings have only 3 attack, while its final upgrade (champion) has 16? To make the game more interesting, otherwise, why would you upgrade in the first place?
Thats why we are all here, isnt it? To reproduce LotR in a civilization mod? Realistic or no, I think a heavily armored spearman\pikeman should be able to kill a charging knight\axemen. Just like regular Civ3.
As I said earlier, we will have to test it.
Here is another tab to argue about.
Combat experience. I threw this is just to make us feel like we are accomplishing something*ahem*. What sort of names do we want? How should the HP and retreat bonuses be distributed? Once again, my suggestions.
As you can see they were influenced by WH:
I think we should raise this ones retreat bonus to that of a regular. That would mean it goes from 34 to 50. Since drafting will be a rare occurrence, I am told. And it will probably be a civ advantage for Gondor, The Shire, or Mordor. I see nothing really wrong with conscript, but it does sound modern. I have an idea, but it might be a little over the top. All the same I will bring it up later.
Regular- Change its name to Trained? Keep its life at 3, keep its retreat bonus at 50, IMHO.
Veteran- Boost its life to 5, but keep its retreat bonus the same, my suggestion. Why the boost to five you ask? I think it would be more realistic if a unit that actually fought and gained valuable combat exp. should be significantly better than a regular. Throughout history they were acknowledged as so. This would make barracks a key point in the game. I was thinking that barracks wouldnt come until the middle\late second era. Taking a tip from TAM, your palace, thus your capital would be the only place veteran units would be produced at. We could even give the defenders when barracks come -HP. This would make the offensive units more pronounced. If only there was a practical way to implement it...
Elite- Boost this one to 6, add +8 to the retreat bonus, making it 73. IMHO
Now the idea I mentioned earlier, is all about names.
To make it seem more epic we could call them by skill. So it would be-
Conscript = Regular
Regular = Trained
Veteran = Great
Elite = Legendary
Thus a message would appear like so: Our Trained Swordsman is now Great!
Great Swordsman, Legendary Swordsman... I like the sound of that.
Maybe we can change something for the units that produce a leader? For instance, instead of having it: "* Elite Durham the Slayer". We could change the '*' to 'legendary. So it would be Legendary Durham the Slayer? nah, scratch that idea. It wouldn't work unless we adopted embryodeads 'space' thing for the Elite units.
Math! We are using different names all the time, but from the example I've given, max. level 1 cities can get is 85. Even if the second defensive improvements give +50 not +25, then the max. is 110. Look that I still included your idea to have the best defensive improvement require the hospital equivalent.
Honestly I don't understand. Not that I do not agree, I just don't know how does it relate to my comment. I was just pointing out that the difference between primitive and advanced units should not be so great, as if original civ3, since this is not about such breakthroughs like muskets or tanks.
To relate to your knight/pikeman example - I agree, but I also think, that unarmored spearman should also have a chance to kill charging knight. If you make so big differences between eras, then knight would smash militia just like tank would do that in civ3, while it should not be so. In WH, there are indeed subtle differences, but one point is enough to make anyone upgrade.
I don't really know what to do with the comment about my mod. Why not you go to my thread and help me? I don't really got that from your message - what should actually be done? lower A, higher D, defenses, differences? I don't know what to argue about though I'm happy you like the mod
I see one problem. We will have barracks or something of that sort, right? With this configuration, units that are actually untrained (no barracks) would be called Trained, and have 3 HP. Units trained in barracks, would be called Great, and have 5 HP. The HPs mean that veteran-producing buldings are much more important, but still, names look weird.
It's the elite status that can be gained through experience. At mid-game, you will have barracks everywhere, so the HP "jump" should be actually between veteran and elite. Though if you have some plan to remove veteran-producing buildings completly, then ignore my comment (I won't object, this may be actually interesting ie. this attribute could be given only to some heroic wonders).
I'll test the idea of changing [*] to "Legendary ", it's quite good. There is this symbol in labels.txt, I hope this is it.
Ok, I just wasn't sure how it would all work out. mabye I didn't read far enough into the threads -- only up to the second. I don't have anything to debate right now. I rather like the idea of eliminating barrackses, but would have to think about that.
I don't think the AI build as many barracks as a human player do. Thus having that HP advantage for veteran units would be "unfair" to the poor AI, who already have enough to worry about.
So, embryodead said something along these lines (IIUC):
Conscript 2 HP
Veteran 4 HP
Elite 6 HP
I like all the original names except Conscript, I think Great and Legendary sounds a bit cheesy.
Rename Conscript to Poorly Trained Rabble, or PTR.
Renaming * sounds cool.
BTW I posted civilopedia icons for some resources we need (Silver, for example) yesterday, and also a new pedia icon for the Harbor (we don't want the modern steel mesh, do we? ). Check my sig for links.
I thought we were going to have three defensive buildings?
The minimal (Never said I was good at math ):
I was trying to say that there should be large difference between first era defenders and 4th era defenders capabilities? Did I misunderstand you?
I believe would should make large differences in the stats, and through my eyes, militia should instead get and upgrade, instead of remaining the same for the entirety of the game. This would allow us more modability. The higher the attack and defense values, and the larger the leaps, the more we can change. But as you say, balancing between these will be a precarious one. If we are going to have 4 lines (light infantry, cavalry, infantry & missile), as previously suggested. This way we might be able to solve our problem. If we have four lines constantly evolving, chances are you will have one 'top of the line' unit in your army, able to combat the enemies best unit?
You don't want me going and messing up your thread with my spam! And that doesn't take a "quantum mathematician" to figure out. But how about this, I can write up a MTR of my favorite civ (Karaz-Ankor ) and PM it to you? My comment was most certainly not meant to offend. Truly your mod is the only civ3 I play, and I don't often replace my civ3X.bix.
All we need is an antonym for trained. Or not, maybe we should just get rid of that idea, I was trying to represent how a "well trained army" would be superior to an "untrained army".
Trained replaces veteran in MEM.
I just hope it doesn't crash the game. It may need the bracets around the name in the middle, however. But [Legendary] still beats and asterix any day, in my book.
Not to nitpick, but you are still giving a HP advantage for veteran units. As I said earlier if we want to be historically correct, we should give 'em the bonus. If the barracks comes later, I see no reason why we couldn't make it cheaper. Militaristic civs get half off, right? You rarely see Bismark without veteran units, do you? There is such a thing as 'peaceful boomer types' and military isn't the only focus of civ3. I think we just have to distribute the militaristic trait fairly, and it should be fine. But it might be to big of a leap, you are right.
Hearken, the great one has spoken!
Does this mean everyone is cool with the retreat bonuses?
Did anyone already suggest "Heroic" or "Rabble" for alternate predicates? Still probably cheezy, I'm afraid...
110+30+20 is actually 160
But hills are +50, so it should be 190
There are three buildings, but one available only to level 3 cities, remember?
As for the max. bonus - I wasn't counting terrain. Blame the hills Level 2 defenses can be expensive (contrary to walls) so it will not be easy to build in small settlements, unless location is very good (mines and resources), then it's justified.
It's hard to argue about it, since we just have different points of view. I see such differences as uneven, since it makes the technology backward factions even more crippled, with no chance to defend. Unless you just want to double the stats, without changing the proportions (ie. there are no 1.1.1 units, but 2.2.1 etc.). (now I think that it might have been your point from the very beginning )
I don't know what MTR stands for, but sure I'd like it
As far as I see, Trained replaces Regular, not Veteran in MEM. Also, MEM gives the +2 HP advantage to Elites not to Veterans, just like I proposed.
As for the "Legendary" prefix - it doesn't work The * in labels.txt must be something else. I tried to find other starts in txt files, without success. Tested in PTW 1.27, but I doubt they added this in C3C, since this feature is quite old.
I don't have any arguments against retreat bonuses.
embryo is right about trained. The way I see it, trained units are those you build(train), and conscripts are the ones drafted.
I'm right though I'm somehow against my previous statement
For me, trained units are those that come from barracks, though what's in MEM is ok, because of how conscripts and veterans are called.
I'd go for something like MEM, maybe with slight heroic addition:
Great / Heroic
I'v been away a while and don't want to read through all of the posts so could someone please post a short list of what work has been done in my absence, and what is currently being proposed.
Now we can be sure this thread won't sink. You should read all the thread though, I believe you can put them in a printable format. Basically we are going by tabs, through the editor.
And next up is Natural Resources.
Sorry for the slow reply, been busy recently. I will post an answer to embryodeads post in a bit.
I'm back. went away for a camp for a few days. about military levels:
Hmm. I've never downloaded mods with large hp bonuses. How well does 7 hps look on the game. 5 is already quite high? keep in mind that some of the stats include hp bonuses of 2 ps, making that 9 hps.
also, we have to think about battle length. It takes quite a long time already in the modern age when many units are fighting to finish battles. Any ideas on that regard???
As far as names untrained, trained, vet, and great sounds good.
The retreat bonuses are ok. imho youse guys had already decided to make cavalry less effective than infantry. therefore I think that retreat bonuses should be increased because there will be more times where retreat will be necessary.
Re: defense bonuses. Hmm. imho they are still too high. however, I'll just wait for playtesting and finilazation of the .bix
Yeah, thats a good point, cavalry is weaker so retreating will need to be easier if they're going to be useful
Hmmmm. Perhaps up to a 100% bonus for elite??? Also, changing the bonus for conscript doesn't really make a difference. hence,
Separate names with a comma.