Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (octa)
- Thread starter Celeborn
- Start date
I just realised I've forgot to say something about mountains. As most civs wont build mines in the mountains I think it would be good to give them 2 shields from the start. The mining bonus could be lowered by one too.
I played with this in my ptw mod, where I had almost all units wheeled, and it worked very good. This will also help with PCH's fear of a general shield shortage.
I played with this in my ptw mod, where I had almost all units wheeled, and it worked very good. This will also help with PCH's fear of a general shield shortage.
Hello,
Yes Mrtn, that is what I reccommended in my txt file back a ways for mountains. Actually, I would leave the mining bonus at two, just because that makes it overall equal to hills. just a quibble. also because we might just be rather low on shields when it comes to the end of the game.
As for the wheeled thing, I supposse we aren't having resources in mountains? Actually, that was my idea. give every civ a unit that wasn't wheeled, something like a fighting scout. I'll think about it. the other thing though that bothers me is areas of the map that are completely sorrounded by mountains. These are fairly common on 3 billion maps. I don't really want large areas of the map not open to settling.
Therefore I would reccommend several things. Firstly, all dwarves units are unwheeled. I think this should be the same for orcish units, because they regularly traveled about mountains just like dwarves.
The case for the other three culture groups is more difficult. For all of these I reccommend an initial wheeled worker. but then at the beginning of the second age give them all a new type of worker. It should cost more ( 15 shields?) but unwheeled. Then give all of these a offensive scout line. it should be something like 3-1-2, cost 30 shields. perhaps 35 or 40, depending on balance. This would upgrade in later days (late 2nd, early 3rd) to another unit with all terrain as roads, 3 move, perhaps invisible, with decent stats and cost. Arnor would get an upgrade of this as the Ranger. This would give an advantage to the orcs and dwarves because they can settle these areas sorrounded by mountains and or jungle long before the other groups.
The hobbits are another case altogether. I'm not really sure we should even give them an unwheeled worker, but balance requires it. just make it a seperate unit so that they can build both an ordinary worker and one for going over mountains for about 30 shields. its required for balance, but make it expensive. Then also give them the adventurer, which is where a Bilbo unit could come in handy. do you all know if anybody's done Bilbo or a similar figure?!?!?
Well, I should release my proposals for mannish units soon, so we can debate about it then. or does that come later? what is suppossed to be next after this terrain muddle?
Just realized that I never voted on the terrains. I would like everything that we can get, including marshes and ashlands, and thick forests and moors. However we cannot do that, so,
Leave desert!! its relation to flood plains makes it indespinsible for representing Mordor. I don't know if you saw this, but scattered throughout Mordor on my map are floodplains. these look exactly the same as the sorrounding terrain, but they allow mordor to get decent growth out if its desert.
Leave marshes, they are essential. many have already mentioned the marshes in the LOTR, but I have a copy of the silmarillion next to me and count 4 major marshes specifically on the map.
As for jungle, make it into dense forest. perhaps 1 food, 1 shield, or my reccommendation, 1 shield. only roads available.
There is nothing else available to mod, so we can't have ashlands and moors or wastelands in the random map mod. I think that these are less essential, so make them landmarks. the Ashlands will be landmark deserts, and the moors will be landmark grasslands and/or plains.
Think that that is all,
RRnut
P.S. as for the statement that you can get through barbarians with culture, i think that we should have a rather expensive unit available just to do the same thing, just for variety, just for a choice. therefore we have the unit which can't really stand up to normal units very well, or you can push culture, which will take more time, but is better for you in the long run.
Yes Mrtn, that is what I reccommended in my txt file back a ways for mountains. Actually, I would leave the mining bonus at two, just because that makes it overall equal to hills. just a quibble. also because we might just be rather low on shields when it comes to the end of the game.
As for the wheeled thing, I supposse we aren't having resources in mountains? Actually, that was my idea. give every civ a unit that wasn't wheeled, something like a fighting scout. I'll think about it. the other thing though that bothers me is areas of the map that are completely sorrounded by mountains. These are fairly common on 3 billion maps. I don't really want large areas of the map not open to settling.
Therefore I would reccommend several things. Firstly, all dwarves units are unwheeled. I think this should be the same for orcish units, because they regularly traveled about mountains just like dwarves.
The case for the other three culture groups is more difficult. For all of these I reccommend an initial wheeled worker. but then at the beginning of the second age give them all a new type of worker. It should cost more ( 15 shields?) but unwheeled. Then give all of these a offensive scout line. it should be something like 3-1-2, cost 30 shields. perhaps 35 or 40, depending on balance. This would upgrade in later days (late 2nd, early 3rd) to another unit with all terrain as roads, 3 move, perhaps invisible, with decent stats and cost. Arnor would get an upgrade of this as the Ranger. This would give an advantage to the orcs and dwarves because they can settle these areas sorrounded by mountains and or jungle long before the other groups.
The hobbits are another case altogether. I'm not really sure we should even give them an unwheeled worker, but balance requires it. just make it a seperate unit so that they can build both an ordinary worker and one for going over mountains for about 30 shields. its required for balance, but make it expensive. Then also give them the adventurer, which is where a Bilbo unit could come in handy. do you all know if anybody's done Bilbo or a similar figure?!?!?
Well, I should release my proposals for mannish units soon, so we can debate about it then. or does that come later? what is suppossed to be next after this terrain muddle?
Just realized that I never voted on the terrains. I would like everything that we can get, including marshes and ashlands, and thick forests and moors. However we cannot do that, so,
Leave desert!! its relation to flood plains makes it indespinsible for representing Mordor. I don't know if you saw this, but scattered throughout Mordor on my map are floodplains. these look exactly the same as the sorrounding terrain, but they allow mordor to get decent growth out if its desert.
Leave marshes, they are essential. many have already mentioned the marshes in the LOTR, but I have a copy of the silmarillion next to me and count 4 major marshes specifically on the map.
As for jungle, make it into dense forest. perhaps 1 food, 1 shield, or my reccommendation, 1 shield. only roads available.
There is nothing else available to mod, so we can't have ashlands and moors or wastelands in the random map mod. I think that these are less essential, so make them landmarks. the Ashlands will be landmark deserts, and the moors will be landmark grasslands and/or plains.
Think that that is all,
RRnut
P.S. as for the statement that you can get through barbarians with culture, i think that we should have a rather expensive unit available just to do the same thing, just for variety, just for a choice. therefore we have the unit which can't really stand up to normal units very well, or you can push culture, which will take more time, but is better for you in the long run.
embryodead
Caliph
Making all dwarves unwheeled is totally unbalancing. I can only base my opinions on my experience with Warhammer Mod and all testing associated with it, but believe me, workers are enough - and if you send one, he builds tunnel/passage/mine etc. so normal military units can pass - the most realistic setting I can imagine. As for the defense, Dwarven Workers should have att/def values. It is a must anyway, because of how capturing works. Any captured "population" unit turns automatically into human worker (slave in C3C). It looks stupid when elf, dwarf or a goblin is turned into humie.
Mountains can still have bonus resources and mithril luxury (mineable only by the dwarves, again a fine setting).
As for the "barbarians" I've made them wheeled again in WH-1.1. If they can walk through mountains, they will walk back and forth all the time and not attack... (since AI "likes" terrain with huge def. bonus). If they are wheeled, at least they sit in their cave instead of slowing down AI's turn.
Mountains can still have bonus resources and mithril luxury (mineable only by the dwarves, again a fine setting).
As for the "barbarians" I've made them wheeled again in WH-1.1. If they can walk through mountains, they will walk back and forth all the time and not attack... (since AI "likes" terrain with huge def. bonus). If they are wheeled, at least they sit in their cave instead of slowing down AI's turn.
Enlightening as always. And I see where it could become unbalanced. Perhaps we need to think of a more practical wheeled setting. What if up until he second era the only Dwarven workers were wheeled? After you reach the third age, the light infantry line and some archer upgrades are also un-wheeled. And finally, once you reach the fourth era, all civilizations except Mordor\Angmar\Isengard can build a Dwarvish Mining Crew with a resource, perhaps gold\silver? Somewhat like Mrtns mercenary idea. Since we already decided that the evil tribes get Orc Archers, Offensive Infantry, and second era defensive units. All of whom would be able to go on Mountains.
Maybe I havent played as much, but in every single mod that Ive played which had a majority of wheeled units, never once did I see the AI building a road to get to an enemy. Never did they build a road tog et a settler across. So what is the purpose of these roads on mountains anyway? If we are going to have an overall wheeled game, which is paramount to the many different terrains, then it is a must that we give this only to the Dwarves, even if its only till the third era.
One thing however, is certain. If we make it so no lowlands can be the only mine-able terrain, we will have the through out the entire worker wheeled aspect altogether. As I said earlier, the only terrain that is mine-able up until the second age would be hills.
embryodead
Caliph
That will suddenly make all mountains flat as in normal game. You reach 3rd era and all natural borders dissapear. Sounds bad.
And how does it relate to my quote? I didn't say anything bad the your "dwarf-only setting", no need to defend it. I'm really ok with it.
BTW in all games in WH-Mod I played, AI was building roads if they are in city range or lead to a resource; that was in most cases enough to make a pass, as most mountain chains are 1-2 tiles wide.
Kindred72
Vampire
In a practial sense, dwarves should be un-wheeled. Mountains are the homes of dwarves. (by the way, is it possible to allow dwarves to settle in mountains, but other civs cant?) Anyway, I agree having dwarves un-wheeled would be unbalancing, but there has to be a way to counteract this. How about making them unwheeled and even bonus movement in mountains, but make their movement always 1. While other civs have units that move 2 and 3, dwarves are always stuck at movement 1. Will this help balance things out a bit?
BTW you guys are coming up on your 7 month aniversary for working on this mod.
You might want to just wait til civ 4 comes out. 
Just teasing.
BTW you guys are coming up on your 7 month aniversary for working on this mod.
You might want to just wait til civ 4 comes out. Just teasing.
embryodead
Caliph
But with dwarven workers being the only units that can enter mountains and build tunnels, dwarves are in fact the only creatures to "live" in mountains. As for the settling ability, it's not possible (oh, I'd really like it if it was)
But how this can help them if their movement is 1?
Kindred72
Vampire
So, It was decided that only dwarven workers would be "unwheeled"? I suppose that would work ok. But then in a later age alow other civs workers to become unwheeled.
Originally posted by embryodead
But how this can help them if their movement is 1?
Well, They're slow y'know. Just trying to balance things out.
The thing about wheeled workers is that I don't want Mordors workers to build roads on all mountains. If you can't enter through the Gates or the spider tunnel, you're screwed, and really have to go the long way around. You can't just take one of the 100 roads the orcs have built in the mountains. Everyone can use a road once it's built. 
AlcTrv
Only goes to one thread.
I want complete credit if we use the dwarven mercenaries or mining crew or whatever
Celeborn
Silver-Death
"BTW you guys are coming up on your 7 month aniversary for working on this mod."
not true it's 4 months...
not true it's 4 months...
Hello,
Everybody agrees that dwarves lived in mountains, right? But orcs did so just as much. They should have all the same advantages.
I think that many of the problems with roads could be solved just by doubling their cost.
Also, don't forget that we are discussing the random map, where mountains act like, well, CIV3 mountains, and not quite like Middle Earth mountains. They are for more random then ME mountains. these were arranged in definite ranges, which went for leagues and leagues perhaps, but were still in definite ranges. In comparison, espically on 5 billion, but even on 3 billion maps, civ3 mountains are far more random.
What I mean to say is this. If we can have ME style maps, such as the scenarios, then it would be fine to have all units wheeled, and not allow workers to access mountains. We could simply either put hills at the locations of the known passes, or prebuild roads. But again, we are talking about the random map mod. There are passes in the mountains, we just can't replicate them both in the random map mod. Therefore I think that at some point in the game we should allow a well developed Civ acess to the mountains. Make the tech very expensive, dead end, and make the workers expensive, 30 shields, and only able to build roads, but make them able to go through mountains. This will allow us, as it were, to see the passes that exist but aren't there. hmm, call them dwarven mercenaries or mining crews.....
Just one general question for unit makers -- is it possible for unit to have the precision bombard but not the bombard ability? was thinking about a battering ram line being able to destroy buildings, f.e. Grond.
RRnut
P.S. what about jungle's equivalent? is it passable to wheeled?
Everybody agrees that dwarves lived in mountains, right? But orcs did so just as much. They should have all the same advantages.
I think that many of the problems with roads could be solved just by doubling their cost.
Also, don't forget that we are discussing the random map, where mountains act like, well, CIV3 mountains, and not quite like Middle Earth mountains. They are for more random then ME mountains. these were arranged in definite ranges, which went for leagues and leagues perhaps, but were still in definite ranges. In comparison, espically on 5 billion, but even on 3 billion maps, civ3 mountains are far more random.
What I mean to say is this. If we can have ME style maps, such as the scenarios, then it would be fine to have all units wheeled, and not allow workers to access mountains. We could simply either put hills at the locations of the known passes, or prebuild roads. But again, we are talking about the random map mod. There are passes in the mountains, we just can't replicate them both in the random map mod. Therefore I think that at some point in the game we should allow a well developed Civ acess to the mountains. Make the tech very expensive, dead end, and make the workers expensive, 30 shields, and only able to build roads, but make them able to go through mountains. This will allow us, as it were, to see the passes that exist but aren't there. hmm, call them dwarven mercenaries or mining crews.....
Just one general question for unit makers -- is it possible for unit to have the precision bombard but not the bombard ability? was thinking about a battering ram line being able to destroy buildings, f.e. Grond.
RRnut
P.S. what about jungle's equivalent? is it passable to wheeled?
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Dense Forest just cries out to be unpassable to wheeled, but the idea that dwarves and orcs would be the only ones to be able to colonize them doesn't ring all too true. Perhaps just leave it open to everyone.
Kindred72
Vampire
I was just teasing you guys. But, The first thread in LOTR modders unite. First post here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53593&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=1
May 18th 2003.
The Orcs never built mines, fortresses, colonies, and arguably any real 'roads'. They were simply pathways, many of which existed before the Orcs arrived. The problem is, if we allow Orcish workers into mountains, they will mines just like any worker. We have long suggested that the Orcs have the ability of un-wheeled offensive and defensive units. This in itself is much more realistic, without any downside(s). They can raid Dwarvish cities, infest in old dens and forts.
At 3 billion years you have definite ranges with hills acting as passes, at 5 billion you don't have anything similar. Simply lone mountains (or is it lonely mountains
?).yet at 4 billion, you certainly have a type of range, more hills yes, but still it is a range. On 5 billion years, the Dwarves bonus is little, if not even nonexistent. On 4 billion, it is mediocre, and on 3 billion it is helpful.
Yes, access to the mountains in the alter ages would be good. But giving the worker a 'road only' is rather fruitless, as we have mentioned, they will simply road-mine in a city radius, not build passes. As far as the AI is concerned, roads only exist for wealth, and at time a trad route. This was on of the strong points against my 2 commerce road tundra.
Sounds good to me
, but the problem is Grond will be destroying windmills and temples instead of gates and walls. It would be a nice addition for a catapult, however, will have to test it out.*
OVERVIEW
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![[Ant]Wimp](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/35/35417.jpg?1475248323){kind=avatar}
[Ant]Wimp
Warlord
Well then. How about the only unwheeled units are dwarf workers. These can go on and build merry roads in their mountains for their military to follow.
Since orcs also live in mountains, how about we make the orc foot units unwheeled, but their workers wheeled. So the gondorian army couldnt use Mordors roads to enter Mordor, but woud have to go throug the gate. Mordors orcs could however freely attack the advancing humans, though their rams and siege engines should also be going through the gate.
And please!!! Dont make the latter aged workers un-wheeled!!! Mountains are mountains and simply unpassable, exept for certain races. Keep it that way.
Next thread?
Since orcs also live in mountains, how about we make the orc foot units unwheeled, but their workers wheeled. So the gondorian army couldnt use Mordors roads to enter Mordor, but woud have to go throug the gate. Mordors orcs could however freely attack the advancing humans, though their rams and siege engines should also be going through the gate.
And please!!! Dont make the latter aged workers un-wheeled!!! Mountains are mountains and simply unpassable, exept for certain races. Keep it that way.
Next thread?
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
But if there's roads in the Mordorian mountains, anyone can cross them.
[Ant]Wimp
Warlord
but I dont think the dwarven workers will ever get to the mordor mountains. So the only mountain with roads are those around dwarven territory.
Or perhaps something entirely diffrent: How about all workers are wheeled. Some Dwarf and Orc military is unwheeled, and in the dwarf tech line is an advance which leads to a miner. A second worker who can only mine, not build roads...
Mmm, dunno if that'll work.
Anywho, I say lets have as few unwheeled units as possible!
Or perhaps something entirely diffrent: How about all workers are wheeled. Some Dwarf and Orc military is unwheeled, and in the dwarf tech line is an advance which leads to a miner. A second worker who can only mine, not build roads...
Mmm, dunno if that'll work.
Anywho, I say lets have as few unwheeled units as possible!
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