Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Celeborn, Oct 27, 2003.
Sorry, didn't read your first post as carefully as I should have.
I thought you had to have a rite of passage agreement to use somebody's roads?
Hmmmm. most of this will be in response to PCH. As far as the Orcs they should have unwheeled unit lines, unlike most of the others ( except dwarves ).
Then there is the statement:
"The Orcs never built mines, fortresses, colonies, and arguably any real 'roads'. "
Perhaps the differences in opinion that we are seeing is because you are thinking of plain Orcs, while I am considering the Orcs under the Dark Powers. After all, there are the Great Mines of Thangorodrim, the morannon and many others. As for fortresses, even a minor one like durthang should do, but there are many others. Colonies, nothing in particular.
Now as for roads, the statement 'real' roads is quite interesting. About the only 'civilizations' who built 'real' roads was Numenor and the men of their descent and Mordor. And both of these civs built roads in mountains. ( Stonewain valley [the road the Rohirrim came up on], and Sauron's road to the portal in Mount doom. Now were these roads expensive to build? Certainly! Were they built? Certainly!
Actually, the phrase real roads is quite illuminating. Such things were very rare in M.E. Gondor and Arnor had a fairly high percentage of them. I was just rereading the Silmarillion. About the only real roads that I could see there were the dwarf roads used for traffic between the elves and dwarves, and the road from the inner gate of Gondolin to its walls. Do we really want to limit all civs from having roads, just because there were no 'real' roads?
Hence, my suggestions:
A specialized worker, available for all civs in the late 2nd age, costing 40 shields, having stats 0-2-1, and is not wheeled. if possible give it only the road and mine ability. Call it the miner. It cannot be captured.
An offensive scout unit, stats equivalent to an elemental archer, not wheeled, 30 shields. THis will allow civs to make contact over dense forests and mountains before the passes are located. Expansionist will get all terrain as roads versions of these units, still with one move, and much cheaper.
Dwarves and Orcs:
These two groups are special cases due to their being much more attuned to mountiains. IMHO, they should have, besides the miner, two or 3 unit lines which are not wheeled.
I do agree with [Ant]Wimp's statement. Let's have as few unwheeled as possible. I am willing to get rid of the offensive scout line. But if we get rid of the unwheeled worker line, we are removing all mountains (jungles?) from play. I think it would be a big waste if we have a terrain type that can hardly ever do anything. It would be a waste if we can't have resources on it. It would be useless, and I would just reccommend removing it before allowing only 2 civs to build on it.
As far as needing a ROP, a wheeled unit can cross a jungle, mountain using the road without needing a ROP.
I think that this will be my last post on the subject. at least for now....
Weren't most of the real fortresses in Mordor (Durthang, Morrannon, Cirith Ungol) build by the Gondorians? But thats not really the isseu.
I dont agree here. The part mountains play in LotM as I see it, is that they provide a natural border. So by not having a unwheeled worker line we can accually USE the mountains ingame to our advantage. With unwheeled workers lateron this will be comprimised.
BTW, it is accually possible to create a sort of second worker (the miner)? Will the AI use it?
The first idea by PCH was ok. Specialized workers still don't work, so forget about that "miners" etc.
Only Mountains are impassable by wheeled
All units are wheeled, except dwarven workers.
You don't need ROP to use someone's roads, you only don't get movement bonus, so if there is a mine/passage built by dwarves, orcs can use them well.
If you want a worker upgrade around 2nd/3rd era for everyone, I won't object.
You can do it, but the AI won't use it correctly, so this should not be an option.
I agree with Embryodead here. But, will this give dwarves a clear advantage? But then, any advantage can be counteracted.
Once again, I concur with Embryodead.
I don't think dwarves being unwheeled would give them an advantage since they have no cavalry. They just stay where they're safe. Until they build roads and be invaded by others, like Moria was in the time around the LotR story. Bad example maybe, but I think you know what I mean.
Specaized workers don't work? How do Roman legions in the ROR conquest work -- they can build roads, right?
They can, but they don't, unless human player tells them to.
Not so embryo (hey that rhymes ). They do indeed build roads and forts, but in the same vein a worker would do it, meaning only if it gives them wealth. This is what I found while testing it, anyway. Aside from this I agree with everything you say, but am not quite understanding why you dont want the upgrade in the 3rd era, what harm can this cause, again?
We are quietly waiting for anew thread to be formed, well everyone is quiet about it except Wimp .
Thread has been formed about 2hours ago from when im posting this, you people just dont know hoe to look!
A link to the new thread guys.
Lord of the Mods (nona)
Damn yahoo!!!! This was an accident.
- - -
Long story, you don't want to know.
Two suggestions for victory, if you don't mind me saying (and, of course, assuming no one else has already suggested it).
1) Make 'The One Ring' a Treasure unit, and 'Mount Doom' the location for a 'reverse capture the flag'. If you make the amount of victory points you get for this big enough, then getting the ring to 'Mount Doom' should effectively win the game with this alone. By the same token, each major city/fort will be a victory-point location, allowing for a military victory for either side-should the ring be somehow 'lost/destroyed' before getting back to Mount Doom.
2) Use the Civ2 Approach, and make the Ring a very short range nuclear weapon. Place Sauron as a King Unit, in Barad Dur, and upon completing the Ringbearers quest, Sauron should be destroyed AND all of his cities should become rubble. Also, if you make the ring cost enough shields, then if Sauron gets the ring, he should be able to get it to Barad-Dur, 'disband it' and use the shields to build a 'Sauron Triumphant' Mega Unit (or even Great Wonder).
As A unit, the new 'Sauron' can basically lay waste to pretty much ANY unit/city, and is almost totally unstoppable. If he kills any of the other sides King units, then their game is effectively over (in this instance, the only King Unit for Gondor should be Aragorn and possibly Eomer). As a Great Wonder, the new Sauron would create MASSIVE amounts of culture per turn, increase Barad-Dur's defense against ALL types of attack, and churn out nasty wraith, troll and orc units every X-turns-basically spelling doom for the other side. This second game type would STILL have a victory point system, as Mordor could still capture enough locations BEFORE the Ringbearer finishes his quest!
Either way, this system works best if Gondor and Hobbiton are the same civ.
Anyway, I'd like to hear what people think of these ideas !
Aussie_Lurker, I know it may be confusing with all the LOTM threads, but this one hasn't been in use since last year... The discussion has moved on to here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89135
FYI we will concentrate on making a mod first, and then base scenarios off of that.
Separate names with a comma.