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Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (octa)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Celeborn, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. PCHighway

    PCHighway Pacific Coast Highway

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    Why? Because I think it would be easier to defend plotted and less treacherous waters, than out in the turbulent ocean, that is all. Also, if it is all the same, then why should there be a defensive bonus at all? Why not 0 - 0 - 0 across the board?
    I disagree, you look at wilderland as a forest-style jungle, I look at is a open plain with a few thickets. It would be the barrow downs, and the moors of the west. I do not look at is so much as simply a renamed jungle.
    In any case I am more than willing to let you guys argue if it should be ashlands, a jungle like wilderland, just regular jungle, some type of steppe, a swamp, or even some type of “polar desert”, which apparently is not represented in this game;).
    I will catch up on adding all this artwork into the ‘Net Art’ folder.
    I vote for a steppe type of scrub land, with thickets every once and a while. “wilderland” a semi-plain-forest type of land.
    *cough* Yes..*ahem*... Mistake... that’s it;).
    Yes I messed up there, I’ll change it in the final terrain review, to lazy to change it now:rolleyes:.
     
  2. RRnut

    RRnut Civanator

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    Hello,

    Would somebody pls tell me, because it seems that I missed it, where these ashlands came from? Why aren't marshes included?

    I just looked at my map that I had made. There the only things that would have wanted would have been marshes, a volcanoe, and perhaps a moors. I didn't really want the jungles to dissappear -- they do an excellent job of representing the deep and dense forests such as mirkwood, inner fangorn, and the dark forest. my map also included a few such stretches in the south just for flavor, even though there is nothing that I can remember supporting such things. I would really like renamed but essentially unmodified jungles.

    The C3C creators were kind enough to include marshes in the thing. However, why are we taking them out?? What terrain will we use to represent the Dead Marshes, the Wetwang, the Gladden fields, the midgewater marshes, along with several other places where marshes could be used. If i had C3C I would have scatterred marshes around river mouths, occasional places, here and there, just to add flavor. Pls do not take them away!!!

    Therefore, here are my reccommendations. Leave in jungle and marsh as is. They were just fine as they were, excepting a possible name change for jungle. Leave desert, but if you must, change it to ashlands. Perhaps add one food to this. perhaps even change the graphics a bit, if possible.

    If its possible, add one new type of terrain. This would be moors or wilderland, or something like that. HOwever, if this is not possible, leave this off. THe reason: this type of terrain never plays as great a part in any of the books. Does the fellowship ever go marching over moors -- no because Aragorn avoids it. were any of the battles of the elves fought on it -- no, but there was Taur fa nuin, and the mouths of sirion for jungle and marsh. therefore, leave those two in, and only add the wilderland if possible.

    My opinion,

    RRNut


    P.S. I apologize for any spelling, etc errors. this was written to quickly to edit. also to little time to use smileys, so add them in liberally.
     
  3. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    Not on your side
    Only your own point that Tundra and Hills producing the same amount of food is unrealistic ...

    Yet you are proposing allowing exactly that by allowing Tundra to produce 1f with irrigation?!?

    But that logic, you'd need irrigation to get any food out of Grassland. Makes sense, but not the right kind of, methinks.

    You can possibly convince me that Tundra should produce a basic 0f. I do not imagine you can convince me allowing irrigation on Tundra is a good idea.
     
  4. embryodead

    embryodead Caliph

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    @PCH
    No it's absolutely not easier or harder to *defend* on treacherous/open waters. If this can be easier or harder at all, then it conerns fighting, which applies to both defenders and attackers. 0-0-0 are proper values.
    So now wilderlands are just plains with a bit of green huh? You dumping that cool sn00py's trees? And it's no longer the "Mirkwood" wilderland yes?

    @RRNut
    C3C has landmark terrain, so there is no reason to worry. Values given by PCH are for the standard (random) terrain, while on ME map we can have all additional terrains using LM (although I too prefer swamps to be default and ashlands a landmark, but that's another story ;) )
     
  5. RRnut

    RRnut Civanator

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    Hmm,

    Had another idea while getting to sleep last night. Change th jungle to dense forest or evil forest. Remove disease from flood plains. Then change the disease text to something like Hurons are attacking, or we are being attacked by wild trees in " ".

    THe other thing that I am wondering about, why do we have both ashlands and desert. aren't they almost the same? don't they represent the same type of terrain? (MOrdor?) Would somebody pls explain this to me,

    RRnut
     
  6. RRnut

    RRnut Civanator

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    Hello,

    Re: tundra. it doesn't matter wether its 0-0-0 1-1-1 or 1-0-0 0-1-1, i'd only ever plant a forest on it anyway :). THats why I said to leave it.

    Am working on my own reccommendations, simply because I don't like not having marshes on a random map and because I don't like having both desert and ashlands. but what is the possibility of convincing a proffessional terrain designer to redesign the desert to make it look more gray, like ash, then white? Also, even if they do push through, give it the same stats as desert. I've been in some ashlands (after Mount Pinatubo erupted here back in 92 or so) and believe me they didn't give food... :roll eyes:

    RRnut
     
  7. Celeborn

    Celeborn Silver-Death

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    *strafes entire thread with machine-gun fire*

    Now that I have your attention...

    I have now got my hands on C3C, and now I'll start giving some opinnion of my own...

    First of all this tundra debate is going on waaaaaaaaaaay to long... If I recall correctly, we where going to sort out the terrian for the scenario first before yappin on about the random map, so this is just waisting time, mainly cause it aint getting anywhere, because it's PC, agains embryo and Conformist, and as they both should know by now, Pc stands strong by his opinions... But I say for the moment leave tundra as it is, mainly because that is easier and then we can get on the the more important terrain (goodness forbid the arguments that will come out then if we are like this for TUNDRA!!!)

    RRnut... The way I'm seeing it Ashlands will be a landmark version of deserts that occur only in Mordor in the scenario, and it would have to be better than ordinary desert, beacause other wise Mordor would be weaker than anything else (I mean with Mount Doom erupting every other day there is nothing but ashlands in Mordor)

    On the same note we could use the landmark feature to create to "jungles" in the scenario, the "wilderlands" and the "dark forest", animal "attacks" work for both so there should not be a problem there...

    Marshes stay in... like the Nutty One said there are plenty of marshes to go around, the Dead Marshes, The Mouths of Entwash... Look at the maps that are all in the LotR's there are no lack of marshes...

    Volcano is good as it is for the random map... Of course for the senario it needs a nice big shield boost, and a trippy volcano only special recoure (Cracks o'Doom ya know)

    Concerning the random map...

    We should always keep it in the back of our minds that the terrain for the random map is as it stand at the "vanilla" settings pretty well ballanced... now I would love for everything to be more Tolkien esque, but we have to keep it fair... Also remember that before we change to base jungle to a dark forest or wilderland that it will still mostly apear around the "equator" of the map (at least in my experience, and Im not saying that it's great) so the forest might then work better...

    *thinks what else he wants to say*

    Nope, that it... for now...

    Oh, now I rember, PC I think it's overview time...
     
  8. Mithadan

    Mithadan Wandering Woodsman

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    Edit: ACH! I didn't see that Celeborn showed up to whip us into shape with his machine gun! Ugh, now look what I have done...

    -----

    PCH, I don't envy your position of the guy who works on the bix and sits in the hot-seat as a result.

    Regarding tundra, I'd just as well let the argument die and see what happens. But, I'm such a sucker. I keep on plugging:

    I doubt you'll be able to convince me to agree to tundra at 0f, 1f irrigation bonus.

    Why? Because tundra can't be irrigated or subjected to any other mode of intensive food production, so far as I know. You can't even subject it to horticulture. Permafrost and the incredibly short growing season makes it impractical in the extreme to attempt plant husbandry in tundra. Dwarfism is the name of the game up there. So no, I don't think tundra is like (non-sand) desert in this respect. Pastoralism might work in tundra, if we consider the Lapplanders to be herders of semi-domesticated reindeer, and their territory to be tundra. I don't know if that description of their activity and habitat (what's their politically correct name, anyway?) is accurate. We haven't got guys who live that way in the Canadian North, so far as I know. I think an accurate, broad claim would be that hunting-gathering accounts for the food potential of tundra.

    Hunter-gatherers typically don't live in cities. The cities that are built in tundra do not emerge indigenously, but are settlements from outside -- and as a result, are sustained by importing food from the outside. Yellowknife isn't surrounded by lush fields and ranches that support the population. I really don't think the organized behaviour of Plains Indians is analagous to settled agriculture. If it is, then nothing really happened of interest in the Neolithic Revolution, the "mother" of "civilization."

    Urban/rural people typically don't know how to subsist by hunting and gathering. I take the labourers who "work" the land in our civ cities to be urban/rural people. So I don't think they'd know how to take food from an unirrigated tundra tile (in any noticable quantities over time), nor do I think it possible for them to irrigate tundra (or subject it to any other intensifying food production scheme). There's a good reason why agriculture and civilization arose in tandem, and why this tag-team did not arise in tundra environments, and why they still don't arise in tundra environments, but have to be sustained by long-distance trade.

    In Middle-Earth terms, we're concerned with peoples who's technological skills are aeons behind today's -- at least in terms of long-distance transport of food. If a city gets built at the edge of tundra, then that city will be stunted. Fair enough. I really doubt the Icemen of Forochel would be building cities. They'd be "barbarians" in civ terms. I'm perfectly happy with no city building occuring on tundra in Middle-Earth, and with there being disincentives to building cities near tundra.
     
  9. Celeborn

    Celeborn Silver-Death

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    *Is pondering if that is sarcams he senses in Mithadans edit"

    Anyway I agree with what he says about tundra, we are dealing here with a fanatasy world that is stuck in our equivilant of the Dark Ages, they are going to have irrigation but not to the level where they can develop either tundra or desert for that matter...

    and with that I say tundra = 1f-0s-0c, and cant be improved (maybe roads, but why would you want to?)
     
  10. RRnut

    RRnut Civanator

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    Hello,

    UGGGG!!!! just wrote a long post but it got swallowed for somehow using too many smilies. bother!!!!! will summarize:

    Re tundra: the only thing that I would like to bring up is settalability and forestability. How do we get wargs off of it without cities on it? and do we allow forests?

    Re Celeborn, thanks for agreeing with me!!:cool: :cool: :D :D

    here are my suggestions:
    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Terrain_suggestions.txt

    This file has been converted from a spreadsheet to a txt but should still be readable.

    RRnut
     
  11. MightyPunkass

    MightyPunkass The Burninator!

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    Colonies...if you allow the player to build a colony on the Tundra instead of a City, they could get Wargs that way.
     
  12. Mithadan

    Mithadan Wandering Woodsman

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    No, no sarcasm. :) I just felt a little silly posting all that tundra talk right after your post, so I had to say something in my edit but I didn't know what!

    I could tolerate roads in tundra if they ONLY went to colonies...which would happen, more often than not (?), if cities were disallowed on tundra, right?
     
  13. MightyPunkass

    MightyPunkass The Burninator!

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    I think that tundra realisticly could support a small colony, but not an entire city, it's my view that therefore you should allow roads and colonies on tundra and that is all.
     
  14. Mithadan

    Mithadan Wandering Woodsman

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    Agreed, I think for gameplay that'd be fine.

    There's a realism issue with roads on tundra (due to permafrost and stuff, I think), but I don't think that's such a big deal.
     
  15. Celeborn

    Celeborn Silver-Death

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    ok tundra is settled then (pardon the seeming pu), at least as far as I'm concerned, now it's time for a 7 page argument on ocean and it's defence values
     
  16. MightyPunkass

    MightyPunkass The Burninator!

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    I think I'll leave this part of the discussion to the intelligent people.

    And so this post isn't fully offtopic I'll just announce that The Silmarillion mod is going to be put off until I get Conquests (soon hopefully).
     
  17. Mithadan

    Mithadan Wandering Woodsman

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    Ha ha, that would have made a great pun, actually.

    I have no opinion regarding marine stuff, so that's easy from my side of things. :D
     
  18. AlcTrv

    AlcTrv Only goes to one thread.

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    I cant swim, so ocean defense should be 0

    Pardon my logic
     
  19. SoCalian

    SoCalian Deity

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    All these pages about tundra almost put me off of this mod all together. I haven't been able to respond for a while now so this being the first time I have been able to do so here is my litte bit on tundra:

    1f-0s-0c, no irrigation, no mines, +1c for roads, no cities, no fortresses, allows outposts, allows colonies. possible resources: wolves/wargs +0f;-1s;-1c, furs (possibly, though doubtful) +0f;+0s;+1c
    ____________________________________________________

    0-0-0 across the board for ocean defensive values seems good to me.
    ____________________________________________________

    Wilderland should take the place of Jungle. First of all adding/changing terrain adds an interesting twist to the game both aesteticaly, and in that it gives the player something new to discover that is available only in that particular mod, and allows new strategies to develop. Second, when have you ever heard of "Jungle" in Middle-Earth, whislt in contrast there is plenty of "wilderland" One needs also to remeber that the entire Tolkien mythology takes place in a very European world/universe. in this sense a Wilderland terrain would add to this experience and flavour. On the other hand, Jungle terrain would dectract from the authenticity of the mod, by expanding the game to beyond Tolkien's mythology, which is something that I believe was unanimously agreed upon should be genneraly avoided.

    This now brings me the subject of marshes vs. ashlands. On this issue I feel that we ought to include marshes rather than ashland. This is for several reasons. the fist being that there are far more marshes/swamps/fens/ect. laying around in Middle-Earth. Like Celeborn said, If you look at any of the maps included with LOTR you will see that they are strung with marshes. I am getting tired here (yes I know sleep is for the weak;)), and don't feel like typing any more. So here is a list of my further arguments.

    *ashland is a highly specific terrain, reserved only for Gorgorath in Mordor, and best included as a landmark.
    *any terrain to replace marshes would have to be adjacent to a river, this doesn't work with ashland.
    *Ashland are semi-unnatural. Before Saroun moved in Mordor was more of a wilderland or desert terrain.

    One last question. How do landmarks work in a random map game?
     
  20. embryodead

    embryodead Caliph

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    OK can we just finish with what SoCalian said and pass on to other things? :p
    ps. @SoCalian - landmarks do not appear on random maps at all
     

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