MIddle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (septa)

[PCHighway]

Maps look great, and it seems we will have many to choose from when they finally come out. If someone wants to give it a shot, a Large Map of Beleriand would be sweet. Perhaps usable for a storming of Beleriand scenario. If whoever decides to make this map (if anyone) I would suggest they use Wimp’s idea with coast as rivers. This would be very cool for the fortress Minas Tirith. It might be a interesting addition to have to build ‘rafts’ to cross river land barriers.

I suggested the same thing as MouthOfSauron, and it was shot down . So of course, I vote yes to using them in a ‘war band’ way, much like armies, yes. Yet they would be weaker, and could not attack repeatedly. It’s sort of like a ‘legion’, to some effect.

On a side note, Celeborn seems to have requested I start working on the .biq\.bix also, so I have started to do so. I will try and post updates, to what features I have added, I will probably work on the .biq and .bix simultaneously. As I said I will be busy, but it should go moderately fast since it’s all worked out.

 

[Owen Glendower]

Originally posted by mrtn
Ok, for all you map making prospects:
I think that the map we need is a map where all of our civs have their starting locations in. This means we need a map including the lands Mouth of Sauron (welcome to CFC, btw ) posted (not his civ map, the hand drawn one), plus Beleriand and Numenor!

Nevermind that everyone says such a map is "too big" and nobody seems to want it. But making the thing bloody huge is the only way to fit it ALL in and still maintain some integrity with the original maps.

 

[tjedge1]

I for one like huge maps. I play on maps that are 360x360. I wouldn't recommend anything that size here, but it could still be 250x250 if needed be. If you don't allow cities in deserts and tundra, and maybe jungles (and swamps in C3C). Also a lot of ocean can solve the problem of too much living space.

 

[embryodead]

@tjedge1
maps such big will make the game unplayable for many people. some can't play even on 180x180. also, you would need like 40-50 cities per civ, go ahead...
It's good idea to have many maps, of many sizes, though if we do certain scenarios, maps shouldn't be bigger than in civ3 huge settings.
@PCH
munt its were shot down because many people don't like them as obligatory feature of the game. the case was closed, so keep quiet

Map makers - I hope you got hands on BMP2BIC utility? It's a great tool; maps made this way still need a lot of work, but you can get the perfect shape of continents and mountain chains.

 

[Sir John]

Altough I do like munits I think we should keep them out of here... It would be nice with a humongos map of arda.. I know not evryone can play it but then we just make different versions

 

[Owen Glendower]

Personally I fail to see how larger maps are "unplayable". I can understand how people might not enjoy a very long game. "Unplayable" however isn't a word I would use. I play them every time. It just takes 2 or 3 days to finish.

If the terrain is done properly you don't need 40 cities. 42 I believe is the max number of cities a civ can settle themselves. (I actually got to that point once I couldn't build anymore cause I had hit the limit.. once).

People need to be prepared for the size if they want a map of all of Arda in their game. Personally working on a 256x256 map I think needs to be bigger. At that size the Shire only takes up about 1 square and there is no room for Moria as a city cause Isengard and Rivendell are too close. Now.. a 360x360 map.. hmmmm

By limiting cities to certain terrain though.. the effective playable area of the map would be much closer to 180x180. I wouldn't allow cities on desert or tundra and that takes up a good 3rd of the map right there.

 

[embryodead]

Originally posted by Owen Glendower
Personally I fail to see how larger maps are "unplayable". I can understand how people might not enjoy a very long game. "Unplayable" however isn't a word I would use. I play them every time. It just takes 2 or 3 days to finish.

From my experience, playing on 256x256 world map takes WEEKS to finish (with several hours a day) and after whole world is colonized, one turns takes 10-15 minutes for the AI. I stopped playing on 256x256 map when playing 3-4 more turns was taking my whole evening (on a 1.8 Gig athlon).

If the terrain is done properly you don't need 40 cities. 42 I believe is the max number of cities a civ can settle themselves. (I actually got to that point once I couldn't build anymore cause I had hit the limit.. once).

42 is not the max number. you might have hit the limit for the whole map (512 cities). I am very curious on the results... we have civs that have no more than 10 valid cities ("valid" for everyone), will be fun to have Moria 4, a far dwarven colony

People need to be prepared for the size if they want a map of all of Arda in their game. Personally working on a 256x256 map I think needs to be bigger. At that size the Shire only takes up about 1 square and there is no room for Moria as a city cause Isengard and Rivendell are too close. Now.. a 360x360 map.. hmmmm

it's a suicide.

By limiting cities to certain terrain though.. the effective playable area of the map would be much closer to 180x180. I wouldn't allow cities on desert or tundra and that takes up a good 3rd of the map right there.

it's still a suicide.

 

[Owen Glendower]

10-15 minutes a turn is a bit much. I've got a 1.8G machine and it doesn't take more than 1-3 minutes tops.

As for the result of that game. I ended up with a political victory. I will confess those larger maps do have their share of drawbacks but nothing that can't be overcome with patience and proper map design. Personally I won't think I'll play another game that size on a random map with less than 80% water coverage. lol Too much living space is boring.

In the end it's really a question of personal preference. I like long "epic" games. Of course it helps if you computer can handle it.

 

[tjedge1]

My can and I don't mind taking a couple of weeks to play a game. I played one last spring that took 3 months, cause only the conquer the world victory was allowed. Of course, the only reason I would want a smaller map would be for multi-player. I usually max the water % choice in my random map games that are 360x360. And I also make mountains unsettleable. I might try to make a gigantic map if no one else does. I plan to make one for my D&D world mod as an option, and then normal sized random map and maybe some more regional ones.

It maybe a suicide, but I live on the edge.

Vote No to Munits!

 

[PCHighway]

It’s good to have an option for a larger map, but not necessary. My computer (Sony VAIO, Pentium 4, ATI 9500) can run Unreal Tournament 2003, probably the most graphically demanding game for the PC out there, and still takes 5-10 minutes for my Civ3 Marine unit to get from America to Europe by ship. I don’t think it’s a ‘how good is your PC to run Civ3’ type of thing, it’s most likely in the programming of the AI. But who knows, I have been needing to upgrade my RAM and memory for a while.

But I think that the AI has much proceseeing to do, most strategy games are like that. And in the turn based environment, it really effects the gameplay, drawing it on even longer.

Can someone refresh my memory on the civilizations? Didn’t we only have 15 without the 2nd Dwarven civ?

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
...Can someone refresh my memory on the civilizations? Didn’t we only have 15 without the 2nd Dwarven civ?

Yes.

And I only have 450 MHz, so I won't even play a 180*180 map. But, it's easy to use several maps once the mod is ready.

 

[[Ant]Wimp]

I agree. Maps arent really our issue. At least not now. It shouldnt be really hard once a complete mod is out, for ppl to convert it to a large map.

And perhaps its doable to have Munits as optional? I personnally dont like them, but if ppl do, they could install a patch of some kind??? (dunno if thats possible...)

 

[Mouth of Sauron]

When i was babbling about Munits, i did not think of these multiplied normal units Munits. I thought something like this.

 

[Mouth of Sauron]

^Imagine something like that, but two orc warriors in a need of blood and standardbearer behind them waving like crazy. Wouldn`t that be just a fine sight?

 

[tjedge1]

Those kinds of Munits do not bother me. The ones I'm not totally sure about on is the several of the same kind doing the same thing.

 

[[Ant]Wimp]

I just think that attack anims for say a 'five-orced orcunit' (so a orc Munit ) suck if they attack a one figure unit, say a civ3 Archer. Your would see some of the orcs not even getting close to the archer, hacking thin air! So i vote against these.

The Munits like the pushed catapult... I dont really care

 

[[Ant]Wimp]

OK, I think I sort of finished my map (no starting loc and no resources, just the landscape). I would like you guys to say whats wrong with it. I also havent tested it for gameplay, so if someone needs a small strip of river somewhere (or something like that), please tell me!

Download here

I dont have PTW (yet! ), so my civ version is 1.29f.

 

[Celeborn]

Hmmm we've slowed down again so to get the conversation started, the Lothlorien should be able to build balrogs!

 

[PCHighway]

Looks really good! But I do think there is to much bonus grassland. I would definitely reduce that, perhaps by two thirds. The resources will make those less necessary anyway. I think that the patches of plain in Gondor aren't correct, maybe more regular grassland instead?
The Gulf of Lûhn, (Harlond) that’s the bay on the Northern Eriador\Arnor coastline, is lacking a small Island. A bit north of this, the Isle of Himling could perhaps be 3 squares, one of which being bonus grassland? The forest South of the Brandywine, on the peninsula, is a bit to large, and the peninsula to small.

Sorry for being so picky, but hey, it’s what I do! I think that the overall map is great, and has a good feel for the landmass.
I believe we will be replacing the Jungle (and other terrain) to an ‘ashland’ style, and a ‘steppe\wilderland’ style, which can replace much of the plains on the general map, and the ‘ashland’ can replace the desert in Mordor

Aside from your great contribution, I have a few things that we could use some help on:




The highlighted areas are the ones I would like to talk about. Also, does anyone have a better name than ‘Barbarian Chiefdom’?

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
...The highlighted areas are the ones I would like to talk about. Also, does anyone have a better name than ‘Barbarian Chiefdom’?

Does the Barbarian Chiefdom ever appear in the game? If so, where?
I don't know how the Governor function, so I don't know if "Emphasize Shields" make any difference.

I don't think you need to check the Explore flag, I also don't think you need the Def. Land Units flag. The AI will build defensive units, whatever you tell it, but we want Mordor to have a Offensive army, so that flag should be enough. We don't want to confuse the AI by having too many flags checked.