Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (XII)

[The Last Conformist]

Oh, I had no idea! (I thought pig poop did the trick).

It does, but collecting pig poop and extracting saltpeter is not economically viable, not on the scale saltpeter was need (for fertilizer, in addition to explosives) by the 19th C.

Would "timber" be the best sort of word for the kind of wood used to make charcoal? Or would it be those little stands of thin, softwood trees, like birch or something...not at all what one thinks of when you say "timber" (timber sounds like big trees to saw planks from etc.).

When I made a bit of charcoal, we used youngish birches, IIRC, but I've got no idea if that's optimal. mrtn?

 

[PCHighway]

Oooh goody! (I'd do that, but I haven't got the time at the moment. The days of long posts are past, for now! ) Make sure BeBro's Generic 12th/13th Century Knight gets knocked off the lists, because as we all agreed with Bebro's French 12th/13th Century Knight, it's too far outside our analogical timeline. (Forgive me for the emphasis!)

These are compromises _I_ am willing to make, I will only post the things you proposed and say whether my stance is flexible. If you do the same thing with my proposals, or with things you are willing to take away, then we will come to a conclusion all the faster.

In defense of saltpeter, guano piles, formed over long periods by the accumulated ****ting of huge bird populations, has actually been mined for it, and was quite a strategic resource back in the 19th C. No wars have been fought over charcoal, but guano deposits in the Atacama was part of the reason for the War of the Pacific.

Last time I read LotM while eating chicken.

Resources
I think having copper as a resource is a good idea, if only to provide some variation (which is one of the main aims, no?) and making it required for some commercial buildings is an even better idea, IMO.

Timber as a strategic resource for bow-units? Or is that crazy

Copper seems ok, but at the same time it seems to complicate the issue. The High Elves had iron Swords when they came out of Valinor, and the Dwarves made iron weapons for Thingol to repel the first appearance of Orcs. So it seems like it would only really be historical if we used if for the evil civs, which doesn’t help us at all. Steel, however, was definitely a real metal that was used. I like the recent idea the birch trees.

We decided that there is no reason to have timber for archer units, as to make a bow and arrows you don’t need that much wood, you wouldn’t even need to cut down a tree.

Steel etc. - Around the time Mithadan and PCH have argued to be the time ME is set in, what raw materials were used to create steel? Did they mine coal to make it? If they did then it seems the perfect resource to have.

Very good point, I don’t know myself. But the thing is that it seems to be ‘carbon’ not coal, Mrtn confused the Swedish translation a bit. So we are talking more like charcoal, from burnt trees.

Stop me if this is stupid...
What about having a iron/steel resource line for North Western ME and whoever else uses that stuff and a copper/bronze line for whoever uses that stuff.

The problem here is that what if a civilization that required steel got stuck with a copper resource? Culture specific resources are a bad idea, and have been proposed before. Ideally an equal number of resources would appear, but that is not the case. If you have 6 different resources that appear on hills, then the percentage of appearance for all resources are reduced.
So then if we added a later ‘steel’ styled resource we would have even less room.

The entire point of a ‘saltpeter’ like resource is for game-play purposes. By adding bronze we are more or less simply making a different ‘iron’ half the civilizations. It cuts back on the number of units required for one resource, but not in the way (and gameplay enhancing) way that an upgrade to iron would be.

Compromises.

Elven Cavalry:
Now that we are all a nice little ring of pirates, we can easily see that the only instances where cavalry archers are mentioned in LotR and the Silmarillion (for elves) is when in reference to the Noldor.
Therefore we have a problem. I propose we use melee cavalry units for the Moriquendi while leaving Embryodeads cavalry archer for an early Sindar unit.
The Noldor would get two early cavalry archers, coexisting (yet overlapping) with two cavalry archer units.

Easterling Mongol Hordes:
Ok, but I’m not adverse to having non-archer cavalry. I do refuse to use the Mongol Settler however, thus the line should go:
Horseman\Mongol unit 1\Mongol unit 2\Keshik.

Camels as Southrons:
Not willing to compromise, it ruins my view on ME. Since it ruins my view, I of course wouldn’t vote\endorse it.

French Knight:
I am willing to compromise here, but I feel cheated at the fact that this unit is ‘allowed’ to be in the game, whereas the other unit (you know the one ) of its time isn’t allowed. If you guys simply said the unit didn’t look good for its role, then voted on it, that would have been enough and would have spawned no “span of the dark age” arguments.

Wains and Oliphaunts Upgrading.
I don’t mind if certain horsemen upgrade to wains, but then the wain must become more expensive, perhaps requiring an extra resource.
As for Oliphaunts, I don’t think anyone wants Horsemen to upgrade to Oliphaunts, but I strongly think that we shouldn’t follow the Firaxis example.
I can get over my prejudice about the fourth era cavalry and I am willing to cut the Southron cavalry line off in the third era.
I do not think the Eastern Cataphract looks “Easterling” at all. I would much rather have this unit used as a fourth era Southron cavalry knight. It is too early to use it as a third era cavalry unit. In which case there is no need to use this unit at all. I will add the unit as a ‘bonus’ unit to the game, so modders can flip it on or off in the editor at will.

So far, from what I have gathered, our flavor lists are like so.

Agreements​

Southrons
African Horseman
Arab Horseman (utahjazz7)
Ansar Warrior
Eastern Catapract (Kinboat)

Easterlings
Horseman
Mongol Horse Archer 1 (Kinboat)
Mongol Horse Archer 2 (Kinboat)
Keshik

Númenor (high line)
Horseman
Valiant Knight
Age of Kings Knight
Generic Knight (BeBro’s )

Northmen (middle line)
Horseman
No current: Suggested> Horse Archer (Kryten)
Slavic Horseman
Generic Knight (BeBro’s )

That's all folks. I do however have some new Elven cavalry proposals.

Elven Cavalry Proposals​

Dark Elves:
1st Era: Chinese Rider
2nd Era: AoK Light Cavalry Archer
3rd Era: Dark Elven Cavalry (embryodead)
4th Era: Glade-Rider (embryodead\horse archer)
[note: 1st era upgrades to 3rd era, and 2nd era upgrades to 4th era]

High Elves:
1st Era: AoE Cavalry
2nd Era: AoK Light Cavalry Archer
3rd Era: AoK Heavy Cavalry Archer
4th Era: High Elven Rider (embryodead)
[note: 1st era upgrades to 4th era, and 2nd era upgrades to 3rd era]

 

[Mithadan]

Oooh, now we need pictures so we can see what this all looks like!

(Naaah, it's 1:00 AM and I'm going to bed.)

 

[The Last Conformist]

Very good point, I don’t know myself. But the thing is that it seems to be ‘carbon’ not coal, Mrtn confused the Swedish translation a bit. So we are talking more like charcoal, from burnt trees.

Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon (it can also include other metals like chromium, but iron and carbon are what makes it steel). The carbon can be got from basically two sources - coal or charcoal. Given the technical level of M-e, charcoal seems like the most likely option. However, given the mining and metallurgy expertise of the Noldor (they mastered the arts of creating artificial gems, which in our history was achieved well after coal and replaced charcoal in steelmaking) and Dwarves, coal is certainly a possibility.

 

[RRnut]

Like most of those lists. However, the only objection that I have is a second era armored, decent Numenorian cav. The UT specifically stated that Numenorians did not use horses for war. no time to give quotes,

RRnut

 

[mrtn]

However, given the mining and metallurgy expertise of the Noldor (they mastered the arts of creating artificial gems, which in our history was achieved well after coal and replaced charcoal in steelmaking) and Dwarves, coal is certainly a possibility.

I think that we can safely assume that they didn't use high pressure apparatus when making gems, but rather a bit of magic. Thus my first bet is charcoal, but this can be got from any forest, you don't need the special ultra rare birch forest of Rhûn...

BTW, All land under Swedish barns were property of the crown, and once every 5 or 10 years you had to dig up the earth, boil this piss drenched soil for a month, to make saltpeter. Property of the dontcherknow.

Easterlings
Horseman
Mongol Horse Archer 1 (Kinboat)
Mongol Horse Archer 2 (Kinboat)
Keshik

Actually I don't like the Keshik, so if we need it I think it should come earlier than Kinboats units.

3rd Era: Dark Elven Cavalry (embryodead)

I don't think that dark elf fits, it's too evil, IMO.

Make sure BeBro's Generic 12th/13th Century Knight gets knocked off the lists, because as we all agreed with Bebro's French 12th/13th Century Knight, it's too far outside our analogical timeline.

I don't agree. Though the time frame may be similar, the feel of the units isn't, IMO. The French is too much of a sissy knight, compared to the generic one.

 

[Sarevok]

those unit lists look pretty decent to me. Some can be a little different though... Im curious to know what other graphics you "Creation wizards" have in mind?

 

[[Ant]Wimp]

We're in deep doodoo on that recourse ppl!

Adding the 'charcoal' resource to fulfill the 'saltpeter' niche is maddness, madness I say!!! The quanteties of carbon involded in steelforging are like a percent or so. When steelworking was invented people didnt panic and started growing huge birch-forests just to be able to get enough charcoal, cuz there was enough allready! So not an option in my eyes. We've also talked about adding recourses like Tungsten, Chromium and Nickel. It would just appear too weird having a Gondor Tower Guard require Tungsten! Here again the quantatie-argument inda applies. So IMO this is also not an option.

But! We do need advanced form of iron.

Would it really kill a lot of people here if we would use 'Steel' as recourse? We could explain in the civpedia that steel is ingame for gameplay reasons. After all, having the Tower Guard require Steel doest sound thAt odd...
I know, I know its far from optimal, but IMHO the best (and best playable) option...

 

[The Last Conformist]

I don't know if it would kill alot of people, but killing a few is bad enough, not? I'd like to cling on to life for a few more decades, if that's OK.

 

[tjedge1]

What about a pure iron instead of steel or some alloy of iron and mithrel?

 

[Mithadan]

I accept Steel, if necessary. A compromise, to be sure, but better than virgins, Mount Hermanpole, or birch trees!

I'm not happy with bringing mithril in here, but it (and galvorn) has been hanging over my head like a cloud. Mithril's already a luxury, for starters.

Maybe our early iron could be "alluvial iron" deposits, and our later iron could be something like tjedge1's pure "iron lode" deposits?

I really don't mind putting copper or tin in there too, here and there. (I can't remember if the bronzey ideas got definitively shot down or not.)

Okay, on to disagreements and agreements and compromises regarding graphics:

Keshik: Nobody talked about this unit until PCH put it in the lists, so I don't think it counts as an "agreement." I can tolerate it if mrtn can. (Was there a problem with Kinboat's third Golden Horde unit? I also noticed mrtn making intimations about the Assyrian cavalry over here. Are Assyrians too "arab" do be used as an (extremely early) easterling? He uses a lance, which is a plus, eh PCH? )

Dark Elven Cavalry (embryodead): I'm happy with this graphic for a 1st or 2nd Era Moriquenderin (probably not Sindarin, though) cavalryman (I don't think the graphic would work well with a Lorien feel, which is sort of the idea for latter-era Moriquendi). I don't think it looks that evil. Besides, Avari cavalry from the locale of the Orocarni Mountains might look a little "evil" anyhow. Nevertheless, I guess this one counts as a disagreement too, unless mrtn wants to compromise!

Both of BeBro's Knights: disagreement here too, by the looks of it. I'll tolerate either both of his knights (Generic & French) or neither. I don't find the change of clothes significant enough to keep/lose one and not the other. In fact, the French trappings are as close an analogue as I can think of (as available) to the (proto)heraldry of Dol Amroth. It's probably best to have neither, so we don't cheat PCH.

AoK Light Cavalry Archer: Is it intentional to give both Dark Elves and High Elves (how do you figger the Sindar fit in there? Qua Dark Elves?) the same 2nd Era Cavalry graphic? And frankly, I think that the AoK units here could be nicely replaced by some better graphics only newly on the scene, namely Steph's conversions of the Perhalle Horse Archer and the Skythian Horse Archer. No clue what Perthalle is, but both units do not look half as "Eastern" as the Mongol Units we're using (and I'm really glad we are going to use them Mongol units for the Easterlings). And seeing how it was earlier suggested to use Japanese units for the Elves, even if there is an eastern feel to the Perthalle and Skythians (and I don't know that there is, graphically speaking, although the Skythians are obviously Indo-European "Easterlings" ), I don't see that as much of a problem -- especially if they're limited to the Sindar/Moriquendi (heck, we could give Kryten's horse archer to the Noldor if we really wanted to).

High Elven 1st & 4th Era Cavalry: I recommend swapping the AoE Cavalry and embroydead's high elven cavalry, era-wise. We want the graphically advanced units coming first (for the Elves if not for everybody else), even though the stats are going up, remember?

Glade-Rider: do you mean embryodead's Wood Elf Rider? Good choice, if so. (Name needs a bit of work, but we can procrastinate on that.)

Kindred72 Knights: Okay, my "give Numenor a head start on the rest of the Mannish civs" idea was insane. Sorry about that. However, there was the good idea to give the "high line" the Valiant Knight graphic in place of the middle line's Arthurian Knight graphic. I.e., the high line got a helmet while the middle line didn't. That is to say, we don't need Kryten's horse archer in the middle line because we can put the helmetless Kindred knight in there instead.

Slavic Horseman: I don't think we agreed to have Kindred's knights as 2nd era graphics, but as 3rd era grapics. That would put the Slavic Horseman in the 2nd era, then, which is where I'd suggest that we put it. As second age cav, it would be fine (in my books) to have it in the high line as well.

What to do for the 4th era, then? If we are disagreed about BeBro's 12th/13th Century knights, I suggest moving the AoK Knight to the 4th Age for the High Line (a compromise! ), leaving only the middle line with an empty 4th era slot. I suggested utahjazz's heavy cataphract all decked out in mail (and lots of it) several times, but didn't get any feed-back. Remember, there are at least four units from Steph's most recent collection that could do marvels for our Mannish Cavalry Lines (British Horseman, Celtic Noble Cavalry, Roman Equites [far less obviously Roman than BeBro's excellent Auxiliary], and the Tribal Cavalry Standard). I wouldn't have any qualms, say, bumping the Arthurian (helmetless) Knight into the 4th era, and inserting one of these guys in the 2nd or 3rd era (moving the Slavic Horseman appropriately).

Kinboat's Eastern Cataphract as a Southron: I can handle that.

Camels for early-era Southrons: Fine with me if nobody wants 'em! (It's you-guys' loss! )

Who said anything about the Mongol settler? Dom Pedro's "hun" would be fun for an Easterling foot unit of some era, though. (Are we putting the Variags/Khandians in under the Easterlings?)

The Noldor would get two early cavalry archers, coexisting (yet overlapping) with two cavalry archer units.

For clarity's sake, I take it you mean "The Noldor would get two early cavalry archers, coexisting (yet overlapping) with two melée cavalry units"? Hey PLC?!?

Would it help if I put this all in a set of lines too, like PCH did above?

Edit: Forgot this:

Wains and Oliphaunts Upgrading.
I don’t mind if certain horsemen upgrade to wains, but then the wain must become more expensive, perhaps requiring an extra resource.
As for Oliphaunts, I don’t think anyone wants Horsemen to upgrade to Oliphaunts, but I strongly think that we shouldn’t follow the Firaxis example.
I can get over my prejudice about the fourth era cavalry and I am willing to cut the Southron cavalry line off in the third era.

I really don't have a serious opinion on upgrading to Wainriders or Mumakil. I'm happy upgrading to either, or at least having the line go that way, obsolescing the previous cav unit, without making it possible to magically transform my horseback riders into wain or elephants riders, provided I have enough gold. Even so, I'm cool with having a 4th era cavalry unit in addition to the Mumakl. Whatever. I don't think it necessary to go so far as to make the Cataphract a toggle-switch unit in the editor!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Maybe our early iron could be "alluvial iron" deposits, and our later iron could be something like tjedge1's pure "iron lode" deposits?

The same idea has occured to me. It makes sense, except that I've got a very hard time imagining that the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod dealt primarily with alluvial deposits.

Addendum: There appeared to be some sort of consensus on making Mumakil one-move? If so, I think the Southrons deserve a 4th Era cav unit. We could kill the 4th Era assault infantry unit, but as said, it should be doable to get the AI to build both. Perhaps make the infantry unit amphibious (Corsairs!) to give an extra incentive to build it.

 

[PCHighway]

Keshik: Nobody talked about this unit until PCH put it in the lists, so I don't think it counts as an "agreement." I can tolerate it if mrtn can. (Was there a problem with Kinboat's third Golden Horde unit? I also noticed mrtn making intimations about the Assyrian cavalry over here. Are Assyrians too "arab" do be used as an (extremely early) easterling? He uses a lance, which is a plus, eh PCH? )

Assyrians are indeed too Arab, but not these graphics in paticular. But I don’t think that’s what Mrtn was suggesting it for. The graphics for this unit don’t really look “Arab” to me or mrtn and I believe he was proposing we use it to replace the ‘evil’ looking Dark Elf Cavalry from WH. I don’t mind this at all as the unit graphics don’t look specifically Middle Eastern to me.

Dark Elven Cavalry (embryodead): I'm happy with this graphic for a 1st or 2nd Era Moriquenderin (probably not Sindarin, though) cavalryman (I don't think the graphic would work well with a Lorien feel, which is sort of the idea for latter-era Moriquendi). I don't think it looks that evil. Besides, Avari cavalry from the locale of the Orocarni Mountains might look a little "evil" anyhow. Nevertheless, I guess this one counts as a disagreement too, unless mrtn wants to compromise!

I too think it looks pretty damn evil . Especially with its crisp graphics and metal shield, it gives the appearance of a later age unit, not an early one.
As Mrtn has said, the unit was made for WH, where the “Dark Elves” are indeed evil. Dark Elves in LotR simply mean those who haven’t seen the trees.

Both of BeBro's Knights: disagreement here too, by the looks of it. I'll tolerate either both of his knights (Generic & French) or neither. I don't find the change of clothes significant enough to keep/lose one and not the other. In fact, the French trappings are as close an analogue as I can think of (as available) to the (proto)heraldry of Dol Amroth. It's probably best to have neither, so we don't cheat PCH.

The knights of Dol Amroth say nothing about heraldry. In Tolkien’s specific description of the knights he doesn’t mention any place where the horse was covered with heraldry. He does however say that the ‘swan’ was on a flag\banner. I too think that BeBro’s first unit fits perfectly fine, but not the French knight. Even though I would feel cheated, I would rather have both of the units in the game, than not have the generic cavalry.

AoK Light Cavalry Archer: Is it intentional to give both Dark Elves and High Elves (how do you figger the Sindar fit in there? Qua Dark Elves?) the same 2nd Era Cavalry graphic?

Do I think that cavalry archers during the height of Noldo power in ME would look similar for all the Elves? Yes, yes I do . I have no problems with the elves sharing certain graphics if no others are available.

And frankly, I think that the AoK units here could be nicely replaced by some better graphics only newly on the scene, namely Steph's conversions of the Perhalle Horse Archer and the Skythian Horse Archer. No clue what Perthalle is, but both units do not look half as "Eastern" as the Mongol Units we're using (and I'm really glad we are going to use them Mongol units for the Easterlings). And seeing how it was earlier suggested to use Japanese units for the Elves, even if there is an eastern feel to the Perthalle and Skythians (and I don't know that there is, graphically speaking, although the Skythians are obviously Indo-European "Easterlings" ), I don't see that as much of a problem -- especially if they're limited to the Sindar/Moriquendi (heck, we could give Kryten's horse archer to the Noldor if we really wanted to).

I think that is quite strange! I don’t see how Krytens horse archer would fit as a Noldorin horse archer at all, who came into ME with steel weapons, and I feel that the AoK horse archers look more advanced. Don’t forget that the units that ‘just arrived on the scene’ haven’t arrived yet.

Of course it is a manner of opinion, but I think the AoK units look better than the Legion units.

High Elven 1st & 4th Era Cavalry: I recommend swapping the AoE Cavalry and embroydead's high elven cavalry, era-wise. We want the graphically advanced units coming first (for the Elves if not for everybody else), even though the stats are going up, remember?

I think the AoE cavalry and embryodead’s Cavalry look more or less on the same level of advancement. Except one has a full face helmet and a cape .

Glade-Rider: do you mean embryodead's Wood Elf Rider? Good choice, if so. (Name needs a bit of work, but we can procrastinate on that.)

No one seems to be worrying about the fact that cavalry archers were never mentioned as being used by the Dark Elves. I’m cool not worrying. Also, names are much more important that flavor graphics .

Who said anything about the Mongol settler? Dom Pedro's "hun" would be fun for an Easterling foot unit of some era, though. (Are we putting the Variags/Khandians in under the Easterlings?)

You and Mrtn both mentioned Kinboats ‘3 horse archer graphics’. There are only two and then an armed settler with a bow and two Mongolian-horses.

For clarity's sake, I take it you mean "The Noldor would get two early cavalry archers, coexisting (yet overlapping) with two melée cavalry units"? Hey PLC?!?

Bah!

Would it help if I put this all in a set of lines too, like PCH did above?

Very much.

The Last Conformist, may I remind you:

Calling all brainstormers! We need another resource, that would replace iron in the later eras! Perhaps make the early iron called "iron lode" and the later iron simply "iron". I know that doesn't make sense, but I don't see a lot of options here, we really need two strategic resources.

What about coal, to fasciliate the forging of steel?

Votes
Resources:
Who wants two types of Iron?
Who wants a ‘contemporary’ Steel resource?
Who wants Charcoal or Coal?
Who wants Bronze or Tin?
Who wants no change?

Mumaks:
Who wants DomPedro II graphics?
Who wants the vanilla graphics?
Who wants a one move Mumak?
Who wants a two move Mumak?

Three pages is too many. Enough on the flavor graphics, this could go on forever.

Lets go to technologies after you said your piece.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Votes
Resources:
Who wants two types of Iron?
Who wants a ‘contemporary’ Steel resource?
Who wants Charcoal or Coal?
Who wants Bronze or Tin?
Who wants no change?

I still think coal/charcoal makes the most sense (not saying much). We could include copper too, but unit-wise that's only helpful with Southrons and early units for later-age civs.

Mumaks:
Who wants DomPedro II graphics?
Who wants the vanilla graphics?
Who wants a one move Mumak?
Who wants a two move Mumak?

Either graphics is fine with me. One-move.

*Apparently demoted to Programmable Logic Chip (PLC) *

 

[mrtn]

Hm, I think it would be worthwile to look at the not-yet-converted Legion gfx a bit more. For example the Meshedi Spearman (post #48) give me Last-Alliance-film-elf vibes. And of course that green clad bowman whisper "I'm an elf. Promise!" in my ear...

Votes
Resources:
Who wants two types of Iron? no
Who wants a ‘contemporary’ Steel resource? no!
Who wants Charcoal or Coal? no
Who wants Bronze or Tin? Acceptable
Who wants no change?Acceptable

Mumaks:
Who wants DomPedro II graphics? no
Who wants the vanilla graphics? yes
Who wants a one move Mumak? yes
Who wants a two move Mumak? no

Kryten's horse archer use half the Bab. bowman, and as it uses the bearded part I think it fits badly as an elf.

You and Mrtn both mentioned Kinboats ‘3 horse archer graphics’. There are only two and then an armed settler with a bow and two Mongolian-horses.

Is the centaur a man with a horse' body or a horse with a mans torso? As the unit has two attack animations it's not "just a settler". I say it's a horse archer with an optional settle animation.

 

[Sarevok]

Votes
Resources:
Who wants two types of Iron?
Who wants a ‘contemporary’ Steel resource?
Who wants Charcoal or Coal?
Who wants Bronze or Tin?
Who wants no change?

Mumaks:
Who wants DomPedro II graphics?
Who wants the vanilla graphics?
Who wants a one move Mumak?
Who wants a two move Mumak?

No
No
Coal
Bronze
Possibly

Yes
No
One Move
Possibly

 

[PCHighway]

Just so you guys know, voting for "no resource addition" cancels out your other votes for resources. It's sort of like me saying "Ok use coal, but wait, don't add any new resource."
I strongly encourage just one vote per subject for future voters.
This is Mrtn, The Last Conformist, and Sarevok votes tallied.

[b]Resources:[/b]
[u]Who wants two types of Iron?			(0)
Who wants a ‘contemporary’ Steel resource?	(0)
Who wants Charcoal or Coal?			(2)
Who wants Bronze or Tin?			(3)
Who wants no change?				(2)[/u]

[b]Mumaks:[/b]
[u]Who wants DomPedro II graphics?			(1)
Who wants the vanilla graphics?			(1)
Who wants a one move Mumak?			(3)
Who wants a two move Mumak?			(1)[/u]

 

[Mithadan]

One move Mumak + two move Kinboat Cataphract sounds good to me.

Sorry mrtn, I'm voting for Dom Pedro's graphics. I like the guys in the tower better.

I vote for "Steel" & Copper/Tin, even though the Copper/Tin only has a limited scope of usefulness and you can't go steel mining. Or is the question whether or not I want tungsten etc? Ach, I'm useless with this kind of stuff.

Three pages is too many. Enough on the flavor graphics, this could go on forever.

Lets go to technologies after you said your piece.

Alright, here's a revised list. After this we save our graphics talk for the beta:

(changes from PCH's list are in dark-red, because it's such a nice colour! -- I put in some pictures because it helps me, and because I was insomniac last night and nothing was on TV! )

Southron Cavalry:

1st Era: African Horseman (Sims2789)

2nd Era: Arab Horseman (utahjazz7)

3rd Era: Ansar Warrior

4th Era: Eastern Catapract (Kinboat)

Easterling Cavalry:

1st Era: Horseman

2nd Era: Mongol Horse Archer 1 (Kinboat)

3rd Era: Mongol Horse Archer 2 (Kinboat)

4th Era: Keshik

-- unless this dude counts as a horse archer and not a settler:

Númenorean Cavalry (high Mannish line):

1st Era: Horseman

2nd Era: Slavic Horseman (utahjazz), unless Steph converts a cooler one.

3rd Era: Arthurian (helmeted) Knight (Kindred72) We put this guy to a vote back here, and I think he was approved...?

4th Era: Age of Kings Knight

Northmen's Cavalry (middle Mannish line):

1st Era: Horseman

2nd Era: Slavic Horseman (utahjazz)

3rd Era: Valiant (not helmeted) Knight (Kindred72), corresponding nicely with the high line's 3rd era cavalry graphic.

4th Era: Generic Knight (BeBro’s) with a pot helm and covered in pseudo-heraldic trappings
(provided we use Bebro's French Knight with a pot helm and covered in heraldic trappings for Dol Amroth.)

I get the feeling ditching both BeBro's knights and using utah's Heavy Cataphract in this slot is not popular.​

Sindarin & Moriquenderin Cavalry:
[note: 1st era upgrades to 3rd era, and 2nd era upgrades to 4th era]

1st Era: Chinese Rider

2nd Era: AoK Light Cavalry Archer Okay, no Skythians...

3rd Era: Assyrian Cavalry (Paradox entertainment, Slitherine Software)
Hmmm... Hmmm... I gotta say, a kite shield with a blue tree thing on it and a dark horse doesn't scream evil at me...and although I love Assyrian units, I dunno about them as elves...I'm so confused!

4th Era: Glade-Rider (embryodead\horse archer)
I don't care about lack of mention of horse archers. If it's a decent extrapolation, then go for it (e.g., camels). If it's not a decent extrapolation, then don't (e.g., fully plated torsos glinting in the sun )

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High Elven Cavalry:
[note: 1st era upgrades to 4th era, and 2nd era upgrades to 3rd era]

1st Era: High Elven Rider (embryodead)
The unit is just too Elvishy to pass up at the height of Noldor power. It's gotta come first (yeah, didn't notice the grainy AoE facemask there, eh. Oh well).

2nd Era: AoK Light Cavalry Archer

Boy, the light and the heavy cavalry archers look pretty much the same to me. Must be cuz I'm sleepy.
3rd Era: AoK Heavy Cavalry Archer

4th Era: AoE Cavalry Yeah, let's put the Erol Flynn dude in at the end.

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I'm suprised you like the AoE/AoK conversions better than the Legion/Chariots of War conversions, PCH. But anyway...

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'm fine with Mithadan's graphics. Would prefer the Keshik to the Mongol settler.

 

[Mithadan]

Would prefer the Keshik to the Mongol settler.

I'm thinking that too. I probably would have thought that earlier had I taken the time to look at "MongolianHorseArcher3" beforehand. I'm such a lazy ass...!