[UNIT] Mighty Ships Et Al

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Unit Graphics' started by MightyToad, Mar 6, 2020.

  1. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    Yeah, it is the "import extra nodes" thing. The knives, and bow are no longer rigged to their bones. So they are just static objects. The import script is probably leaving out some crucial thing without the extra nodes checked.
    I spent several days trial and error/searching forum a few months ago on this. The only work around I came up with is to just delete the arrows from the nif.

    The HK model is flawless. :eek: I would rig it to the gunship.

    I don't know. I left the "aggressive AI" unchecked. I've never played BBAI so can't say. I wouldn't say they are more aggressive. More stubborn perhaps.
     
  2. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    It really depends on the leader's priorities I think. Some favor a conquest path, others cultural, etc.

    So what are you doing regarding American flavor units, there are a lot on the board already. Capo(who hasn't been here in a long time) once said he used natives with a red, white and blue color scheme for ancient, which is sort of how I treated Brazil and Haiti in my mod(new version, not out yet). I assume your using the Pioneer wagon from Colonization as a Unique settler?
     
  3. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    Not as much as you would think. For america I mostly use Dumanios native set. Except for a few things I don't care about like chariots, elephants, and settlers ;).
    I've seen the wagon one you mentioned in RI. I haven't bothered to unpack the fpk to get anything. Mostly I've just added many more ship units so far. I mostly just use the BTS flavor units for the unitartstyletypes. I don't know why they aren't used by default. They were already in the artdefines. Just not used. :confused:
     
  4. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    Firaxis only partly completed the flavor part of BTS, unfortunately. Early on some people here who helped firaxis with bts completed the african part seperately. Then avain created keymod(what became the VD mod) and Mamba, Diversica, others all had flavor in their mods as well, some since warlords(Total Realism).

    Capo made an American flavor pack, if your interested.
     
  5. ramzay1945

    ramzay1945 Knyaz

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    I can't know for sure, because I haven't worked with it much.
    Perhaps this problem is related to the names of the bones. They should all be checked and correctly named.
    One more point. The .kf files contain not only animations, but also links to effects. Maybe there is an incorrect link in some of the .kf files?

    Spoiler :
    1234.jpg


    Also, the problem may not be related to animation at all. For example, that cavalry model does not contain such a controller at all, as in the screenshot. I do not know how much it is necessary for the game. But it seems that all the animated models in the game contain it.
    Spoiler :
    12345.jpg

    I will try to repeat both ways and tell you what happened
     
  6. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    Thanks, Comrade. I think these errors are more likely due to the nif as well. Like you said, the lack of a multitransformcontroller is a big deal. The unit is also scaled to dwarf godzilla. When in the game it towers half way to the moon. I set the scale to "0.1" which had no effect. I've seen this happen before, but I don't remember what caused it.
     
  7. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    I've made a discovery. It turns out the problem is the animations after all.
    As most of you already know the Civ4 units use this skeleton node structure:

    Scene Root
    MD
    MD NonAccum

    The Civ 5 units use this:

    Scene Root
    WORLD_center

    I thought perhaps the name of the nodes matter. Perhaps the code somewhere looks for "MD" or "MD Nonaccum".
    So I renamed the "WORLD_center" node to "MD" in the nif, and the kf. Eureka!

    Cavalry_Pistol.jpg

    So, this is definitely possible. Still, the long painful process of cleaning up the keyframes to a more manageable size/add effects and whatnot. It can be done.
     
  8. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    Are you doing the Civ5 conversion project you were talking about awile back?

    One thing I'm impressed by is how you figure out problems Toad.

    FYI which Privateer is it from Realism Invictus that your using?
     
  9. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    Well, converting all the civ 5 units would take forever. There are hundreds. I was thinking of converting the barbarian units. There are 3 flavors for archers, warriors, swordsmen, and spearmen. That, or the helicarrier from the MCU. Then the civil war thing came up so that's where I'm at.
    I like the blockade runner. Just looks cool. I don't think the Civ 5 privateer looks much better than its Civ 4 counterpart. I haven't actually bothered to extract it yet.

    Blockaderunner.jpg
     
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  10. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    That ship does look really cool. Looks like it might be one of those steam Sloops I read about.
     
  11. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Oh, this thing... It's one of several steamships (along with the gunboat, the steam schooner and the paddlewheeler) I converted from "Swashbucklers: blue vs grey", an obscure game that is basically a "Pirates!" clone set in the US Civil War era. The world map models used there are quite well-suited for Civ 4 level of detail, at least with some additional post-processing applied. This particular unit I tweaked to look like one of those:

    Spoiler Blocade runner model :


    There are actually some more ships I was too lazy to finish converting from that game; attached here are the non-rigged nifs and upscaled textures if somebody wants those.
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    I'm going to post the pistol cavalry unit I've been messing with. There is an issue I haven't haven't been able to diagnose for a while now. The die fade animations intermittently fail. There is also lagging during the die animations occasionally.

    In the past this has been due to another animation having a typo for the end time in one of the keys, or the transition (fortify) being too far off in its ending or beginning frame. I don't think that is the case here. I've been over everything I can think of right now. Perhaps another set of eyes can assist?

    I've set up the kfm based on the cuirassier. Mostly because there is no hurt animation. The cuirassier is weird in that it uses ranged attack animation codes, but is not ranged in the XML. I think this is logical since the pistol cavalry don't have a hurt animation, and pistols are very short range weapons.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    The die fade animations seem to be working fine for me. The only thing I noticed is that, when used as ranged, the units sometimes rotate a little bit before fading, but that is a general problem with cavalry in range mode.

    If you want to make completely sure that the fade does no other funny stuff, you can used the attached nifs. They only contain the fade commands and no bone node positioning anymore.
     

    Attached Files:

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  14. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    Yeah, the problem is intermittent. It will work sometimes, and I will say "It works?! I don't believe you.." *restart* *Die fade fails* "I knew it!".
    I tried out your kfs. It works every time I tested it. Maybe it is finally ready... I'll let it marinate for a while. Too many unknown variables to trust it, but maybe I am being paranoid. Animation crap sucks, and I ready for something else.
     
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  15. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Out of curiosity - why did you decide to import Civ 5 animations in this particular case? We have a set of Civ4Col cavalry animations for pistol/sabre that looks very similar, and my guess is that rigging the unit to those would have been much easier.
     
  16. MightyToad

    MightyToad Sith Lord

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    You're right. Using the other animation would be an order of magnitude less work. Not an exaggeration to say 100x.

    I was already familiar with the unit from the previous carbine cavalry. But, more importantly the pistol cavalry are significantly less complex than something like the Gatling gun. So, a suitable test to learn the procedure before attempting more challenging units.

    Besides, I think this would be good for a cowboy/Texas ranger unit.
     
  17. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    Pistol cavalry/Pistolier were a thing for awile in war weren't they?
     
  18. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Got you, so you actually had a noble goal of bringing more Civ 5 anims over to Civ 4 in future. :thumbsup:

    Yes and no. That's actually a complex question.

    Cavalry and gunpowder weapons didn't mix well for a rather long while. Early guns were very cumbersome to reload on horseback, and too inaccurate to fire from horseback with any real hope of hitting anything from any distance but point-blank. So while the pistol did indeed enter a cavalryman's arsenal very early on due to it being compact, it was for a long time delegated to strictly sidearm status and an emergency one at that. Most early cavalrymen didn't even intend to reload their pistols while in battle, hence wealthier people might have carried 4 or more of those - and most actual uses would occur if one got de-horsed (a 30YW cavalryman using their dead horse as an impromptu barricade to fire their pistol from would be rather standard practice).

    Early attempts at integrating firearms and light cavalry were quite unsuccessful. While heavier cavalry has "found" its gunpowder self by early XVII century as harquebusiers (which is what Civ 4 cuirassier actually represents) armed with carabines, even if with mixed battlefield success until retooled tactically by a certain Swedish guy mentioned later, light cavalry was decidedly unsuccessful in adopting firearms. Certain tactics were developed to allow riders to stay out of trouble and reload, it quickly became apparent that the amount of training and cohesion to effectively execute it plus the general costs of cavalry were simply not cost-effective when the casualty ratio with "expendable" foot shooters was roughly 1:1 in actual combat encounters.

    Enter Gustavus Adolphus, the guy who seems, at least to me, one of the greatest military thinkers of all time, at least because all of his innovations carried enormous practical impact, usually at the little material cost. He realized that the main asset of any cavalry, be it light or heavy is speed+mass=impact, and that thus any combat (not recon or communication) use of cavalry on the battlefield was by necessity of that a charge. At the height of pikeman era, this meant that the cavalry would use every advantage to maximise its single impact on enemy formation - hence no complicated manoeuvering, simply driving into the enemy formation at maximum speed and cohesion, discharging whatever firearm you got at the closest possible range, for both real and psychological impact, and switching to melee. Which is more or less what cavalry did ever since and up to their obsolescence on the battlefield. This also means that save for dragoons, who were basically mounted infantry, melee was still expected from all branches of gun-armed cavalry up to and including World Wars (in contrast to pre-gunpowder era, where certain classes of cavalry, like horse archers or mounted javelin throwers were not expected to ever engage in melee with the enemy).

    Note that while this writeup focuses on European military history, that's because other locales were even more reluctant to experiment with horses and gunpowder, bringing no real innovation to cavalry tactics, and would later follow the same pattern. So yeah, while the pistol was a cavalry staple for almost as long as it has existed, its meaningful use on the battlefield only dates back to the late XVII century onwards, and even then to supplement a melee charge.
     
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  19. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    Thankyou for the write-up Walter I learned quite a bit from that. I just remember that Cavalry type units have traditionally(like naval units) not been represented well in Civ games. A guy named Sandris made the first Cuirassier unit I ever saw for Civ3, I knew I had to add that unit to my Civ3 mod back in the day. More or less I read they were "Knights with Guns", still in a time of heavy armor. More or less his representation of the Cuirassier used a Gun blast when charging into battle instead of the lance. But there were many kinds of cavalry as you alluded to.

    I did not know of Gustavus Adolphus. Kind of reminds me of something I saw awile ago on how the Incans reacted to Spanish Cavalry, having no defenses against them at first, the charge decimated them. The Incans did eventually develop a bola weapon meant to take down cavalry, which was interesting.
     
  20. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Oh, don't get me started on Gustavus, I'm very much a fanboy. Combined arms tactics, mobile artillery attached to infantry regiments for support, salvo fire for infantry, standard calibers, above-mentioned cavalry tactics - and most of this before he was 30 (he was killed aged 37 having spent the last several years on campaign in Germany).

    Incas are indeed a very curious bunch - as unlike other major native empires and states in the New World, they actually lingered on (Neo-Incan State, even if in a rump compared to their heyday) long enough to partially integrate European military tech, giving us a rare insight into how an organized native military of a surviving native state could have looked like after European contact. RI actually tried to draw a lot on the Neo-Incan material for Renaissance units:
    Spoiler Neo-Incan soldiers illustration :
     

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