Militarizing Covert Ops

[deadliver]

How about having more black ops unit beyond the spy? I could see there being room for special forces units (either as spy hunters, saboteurs or assassins). Give them something equivalent to submersion stealth (only works at full health) and provide a diplomatic penalty (or just the chance of one) everytime to use them to do something more damaging than a spy such as killing units (including workers) perhaps. Make their operations have energy costs and suddenly only the well off factions have the resources to fund large scale assassinations and extensive black ops missions. Militant covert ops units, yeah!

Any thoughts?

 

[Maniac]

I think it could be cool to have special abilities or promotions for the Probe Team, but I don't see the need to include more spy units.

 

[deadliver]

I think it could be cool to have special abilities or promotions for the Probe Team, but I don't see the need to include more spy units.

That would be cool. Can you have a promotion that allows the probe team to attack a unit? I just think the probe teams should be at least able to kill each other and preferably try for other units too.

 

[GeoModder]

That would be cool. Can you have a promotion that allows the probe team to attack a unit? I just think the probe teams should be at least able to kill each other and preferably try for other units too.

Probe teams are not supposed to see each other. That would defeat the benefit of using probes as a hidden and unexpected unit. And as the game is now "revealed" probes are automatically disbanded.

As on kiling other units, I can imagine a probe sabotaging a military unit, but killing what in real life is at the very least a whole platoon by a team of only a few agents?

 

[deadliver]

Probe teams are not supposed to see each other. That would defeat the benefit of using probes as a hidden and unexpected unit. And as the game is now "revealed" probes are automatically disbanded.

As on kiling other units, I can imagine a probe sabotaging a military unit, but killing what in real life is at the very least a whole platoon by a team of only a few agents?

If it wouldn't be too complicated you could always specialize the probe team using promotions to represent what type of unit they actually are. Probe Teams could specialize in the above mentioned activities at the cost of being less able to perform tasks outside their specialty.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I'd love it if Probe Teams had to fight each other but were still completely invisible to everything else. Kinda like in SMAC.

The return of the sabotage mission would be nice too, so long as it wasn't too powerful. I don't think that the subvert unit mission should be implemented as it was too good.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I'd love it if Probe Teams had to fight each other but were still completely invisible to everything else. Kinda like in SMAC.

Well, I think the espionage system in SMAC is inferior to the one in Civ4, after all, there was a lot of development between SMAC and BTS - the BTS espionage is neat and sufficiently abstract. Hence, in my opinion it would be a shame to throw away all that improvement (after all Planetfall's aim isn't a recreation of the original gameplay, but rather Civ4-adaption of the original themes and story). If anything, then I'd say adding the SuperSpies mod component would expand better on that. The promotions would work well for probe teams, some as promotions, some as special abilities.

In SuperSpies, the spies in cities get XP from catching other spies and successful missions, it would also add in the fun part of probe team combat in SMAC - that your probe teams gain experience and so on.

Cheers, LT.

 

[deadliver]

How about adding a Fungal Bloom espionage mission? Or a mission that riles up/summons local wildlife?

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Well, I think the espionage system in SMAC is inferior to the one in Civ4, after all, there was a lot of development between SMAC and BTS - the BTS espionage is neat and sufficiently abstract. Hence, in my opinion it would be a shame to throw away all that improvement

You're right, I wouldn't want to get rid of any of the current espionage. It would just be nice if the presence of a defending probe team was a certain deterrent (until defeated) rather than the current, maybe-it-will-discover-an-enemy-probe-team-maybe-not system.

 

[deadliver]

I donno, I still think it would be cool to have probe team combats

 

[orlanth]

A few new Probe Team missions would be cool.. Think I remember SMAC having a Crash Mainframe mission (maybe Roze only?) that could cause temporary chaos in multiple enemy cities by spending big Espionage (maybe even anarchy x 1 turn?)

I think people were asking for ways to make Great Hacker more useful/unique - might try giving them a unique super-probe-team like ability, so they could be used as a unique one-time offensive strike as well as settled/burned as a generic GP.

 

[Pfeffersack]

A few new Probe Team missions would be cool.. Think I remember SMAC having a Crash Mainframe mission (maybe Roze only?) that could cause temporary chaos in multiple enemy cities by spending big Espionage (maybe even anarchy x 1 turn?)

I can't remember such a mission, but the fact that you could make some subsequent decisions after giving out the orders to start was a highlight for me (e.g. the base mission was to cause damage in the base, but then you could chosse if you want go for a certain building with a lower chance or for creating general harvoc in the base with higher chance, how you want to react if their are increased security measures and if you want to place false evidence, trying to blame another faction). Some things are solved differently in BTS (e.g. counter-espionage measures), but that random-target thing is somethuing miss. As well as the free-captured-faction-leader.

 

[Lord Tirian]

You're right, I wouldn't want to get rid of any of the current espionage. It would just be nice if the presence of a defending probe team was a certain deterrent (until defeated) rather than the current, maybe-it-will-discover-an-enemy-probe-team-maybe-not system.

Well, if the presence of the probe team would increase capture chance... it does influence it, right? As combat, it's random, so you'll never have a guarantee. Anyway, since it's some time since this came up, I could think about it a bit and can explain better where's my gut-feeling coming from.

The problem with probe team vs. probe team combat is, from my point of view, rather complex:

1) It defeats the point of spies being invisible - this is either frustrating (you can see the teams, but your military units can't touch them) or makes them useless (if military units can get to them).

2) It's micromanagement for not a lot of gain - passive espionage defends you as well, but it's easier on the human player. Shuffling dozens of counter-spies around is annoying - and while you could say "it's like military", well, right. But it's not like it's replacing military, it's on top of that!

3) It forces you into the espionage game. Simply put, with spy combat, having spies becomes a defensive requirement - it forces you to build and position them, because ignoring that would only mean trouble. In the current espionage system, you can decide not to get involved into active espionage. Perhaps build some spies (in SuperSpies) as garrison, perhaps turn the espionage slider a notch up... that's it. This allows you to have a reasonable defence against the more disrupting actions - similar to the way a builder just keeps a small garrison to avoid getting munched up by warmongers.

4) It's a feel thing. Spies are single persons or small teams - it's nowhere near the unit scale. Units are dozen or hundreds of people, that's an entirely different scale. Having combat between spies feels like rehash of normal/psi combat. Without the combat, you get more of the feeling that it's a single spy, outside of the military scale, that is sneaking around, doing espionage.

Now, this doesn't mean that I think the BTS espionage system is perfect - I believe it can be greatly expanded, but along the tenets of its current design.

Cheers, LT.

 

[deadliver]

2) It's micromanagement for not a lot of gain - passive espionage defends you as well, but it's easier on the human player. Shuffling dozens of counter-spies around is annoying - and while you could say "it's like military", well, right. But it's not like it's replacing military, it's on top of that!

3) It forces you into the espionage game. Simply put, with spy combat, having spies becomes a defensive requirement - it forces you to build and position them, because ignoring that would only mean trouble. In the current espionage system, you can decide not to get involved into active espionage. Perhaps build some spies (in SuperSpies) as garrison, perhaps turn the espionage slider a notch up... that's it. This allows you to have a reasonable defence against the more disrupting actions - similar to the way a builder just keeps a small garrison to avoid getting munched up by warmongers.

Micro management? This could be applied to regular military units too using this rationale.

What is wrong with being forced to conduct espionage? Personally I think espionage should be a necessary part of the game and that the player has to decide whether or not they will just do the minimum (i.e. a probe TEAM stationed in each city) or create an army of probe teams running amok.

Currently espionage is very boring.

 

[Shakiko]

As on kiling other units, I can imagine a probe sabotaging a military unit, but killing what in real life is at the very least a whole platoon by a team of only a few agents?

How about the possibility to remove a unit's Promotion (killing the most experienced leader = loss of combat strength, e.g.) to simulate this.
Perhaps it's also possible to code that you can "steal/destroy" Special abilities ? (Sabotage that reactor/communication module etc. ? Just throwing in ideas, I think a few would be flavorful, some other might make no sense at all.)

Not sure if it's really needed though as it was already pointed out that this would add alot more micromanagement to the game.

On the other side Spionage was a major aspect of SMAC as well. (especially if you played a military faction and used the standard setting of 'steal tech when conquering bases' being turned off)
So seeing more Spionage options sounds great.

I think it could be cool to have special abilities or promotions for the Probe Team,

That would be awesome, if Spies would get some exp after succesfully completing a mission - examples could be
- increase their success chance
- lower cost of spionage missions (perhaps spead this one out if you want more options - so instead of -5% to all you could do -20% to a certain mission, b/c they are specialists in poisoning water)
- increase movement (to reach the next target faster)

etc.

If you also disable Spy units from getting exp from other means (like those 'new produced units get 2xp' - buildings/civics) , you could also add the DataAngels as Wonder or Corporation that grant a few extraexp to each unit built. That would already make your spies abit more efficient that other factions' spies and would improve an existing system instead of adding a new one.

Just some ideas, focus being to keep it simple enough.

 

[GeoModder]

How about the possibility to remove a unit's Promotion (killing the most experienced leader = loss of combat strength, e.g.) to simulate this.
Perhaps it's also possible to code that you can "steal/destroy" Special abilities ? (Sabotage that reactor/communication module etc. ? Just throwing in ideas, I think a few would be flavorful, some other might make no sense at all.)

I like this idea, especially for the so-called "technical" promotions from a unit.
Now we can only hope Maniac thinks so too...

On the xp thing, perhaps instead of giving experience to probes, decreasing the number of :espionage points necessary to perform future missions would be better?
The thing is that espionage needs to be a hidden thing, but an alert player can still figure out who's done something by keeping tabs of the espionage points some faction has towards you. But if highly experienced probes need less and less :espionage points, there's more chance even that alert player can't figure it out anymore because the numbers don't fit anymore.
Also, the risk for losing the probe still exist, so a player always needs to consider if he'll use his most elite probes on a new "job", or keeps them home to defend.

 

[Maniac]

I like this idea, especially for the so-called "technical" promotions from a unit.
Now we can only hope Maniac thinks so too...

I like the idea, but it would be difficult to make the AI move to a plot where they can perform this mission.

 

[deadliver]

Don't have access to my civ4 computer so I've been busting some SMAC. I tell you man being a neighbour to the Morganites and having counter probe teams is not just a god send it is good strategy. I still don't understand why this wouldn't be a good idea in the mod. Would there be a way to only allow probe teams to kill other probe teams?

Spoiler :

Only a ninja can kill a ninja!

What are the plans for Great Hackers btw?

 

[Shakiko]

The thing is that espionage needs to be a hidden thing, but an alert player can still figure out who's done something by keeping tabs of the espionage points some faction has towards you. But if highly experienced probes need less and less :espionage points, there's more chance even that alert player can't figure it out anymore because the numbers don't fit anymore.

I think you can't solve that problem by reducing the pointsneeded to accomplish missions as such an "alert player" would just check the spionage points of every of his opponents each time he gets hit by an espionage action and would be able to deduce the ''right' opponent by simple noticing that everyone's number got up - and just one decreased. =(

But perhaps there is a way to mask/hide the number of espionage points your opponents have spent/accumulated on you ?

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Also, I searched through civfanatics and found something in The Rise of mankind mod ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=269 )
It uses some sort of plugin/code called "Super Spies 1.3" so that your spies can have promotions adn get exp after completing a mission succesfully. Examples for promotions include:
- reduced spionage points needed for missions
- making your probes loyal (= not revealing identity when caught)
- increasing the effectiveness for a certain type of spionages mission (like +50% City unhealthiness)
-+1 movement to reach the next target faster after completing a mission
- decrease detection chance for missions
- increase detection chance to find enemy spies

These idea's would not neccessarily "militarize" covert ops, but perhaps its a good fundament to start with ? (And especially it's already coded )
Or perhaps it will give you guys some ideas how to code the other proposals (?)

Cheers,

 

[V3N0M]

Would it be possible to allow players to upgrade their regular units to hidden nationality? If that seems unbalanced, probe teams could be used to expose the nationality of a unit for a turn.

Also, any possibility of new unit types (tanks, motorcycles, large bombers, etc) that weren't in SMAC?