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Military Academy Question

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Lorax, Feb 2, 2004.

  1. Lorax

    Lorax Chieftain

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    I built this and made three armies - then the option for generating an army disappeared....Is there a limit to how many you can make? Or what do I have to do to make more....

    Also, what about old armies - like knights - what I can do with them? They are not gonna be effective in the age of tanks....
     
  2. Tassadar

    Tassadar Master

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    Ya it is related to number of city you hvae, i think it is 1 army per 4 city.
     
  3. Duke Togo

    Duke Togo Golgo 13

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    I always found it handy to keep one GL hanging aroung after a war. Start building Armies with the Military Academy, and while the last one is in production, use your GL to create and Army. You'll nab yourself on more Army than you are allowed.
     
  4. SeVeS

    SeVeS Socialist

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    IMHO it's a real shame if you use that last leader to generate an army. Espessially if you already can build them. I'd rather use it for some kind of wonder.. or so.
     
  5. LordKestrel

    LordKestrel King

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    Disband the old armies in a city, and they'll give you 100 shields. That way you can build new armies in your city. You *might* even be able to partially rush the new army when you disband the old one, giving you a nice boost towards completion. I'm not sure on if you can rush armies though, so if you can't, then don't try that.
     
  6. Duke Togo

    Duke Togo Golgo 13

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    C3C, Great Leaders can't build Wonders anymore.
     
  7. WarMonkeY

    WarMonkeY Emperor

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    weell.. you CAN still rush small wonders like the FP methinks
     
  8. Duke Togo

    Duke Togo Golgo 13

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    At that point, I have it long since built.
     
  9. Cuivienen

    Cuivienen Deity

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    Battlefield Medicine, then, or The Pentagon or The Apollo Program.
     
  10. Wakboth

    Wakboth Chieftain

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    It's absolutely silly to use GLs to build armies once you own the military acadamy. You can't make leaders with production units. You can make armies. You can do stuff with GLs that you can't do with any other unit or production in the game. Why on earth remove the ability to rush a wonder (even a minor wonder) just to save yourself a few turns of production in a single sity. Unless a wonder takes less time to build then an army, you're always just better off holding onto the leader and building an army if you need it.

    To be perfectly honest, by the time I've got military academy, I generally don't need more then a couple armies anyway. By the modern age, armies are pretty much useless. I only find them useful in the ancient and middle ages when their extra hps make them great units for both attacking and defending. Later in the game, you're literally better off just having three separate units then using an army most of the time. As units get higher defensive values, the gains from terrain and fortification become higher (not relatively, but in absolute numbers). Going from a 2 defense to a 3 isn't that significant when defending against a swordsman attack in the ancient age for example, but going from an 8 to a 12 is very significant when defending against a tank or calvary attack. The random "AI gets ridiculous run of luck" factor is going to nail your army if he chooses to attack just as well as a single defending unit. But you lose more units if your army is killed. Attacking with an army means you've just cut down your number of attacks by two. I'd usually rather have three calvary or three tanks, or three modern armor then an army of the same units.

    Which reminds me. How useless is the pentagon? Same logic. Armies are so ineffective on attack that you're just using up more units to build them. On defense, they aren't significantly more valueable with 4 units then three (given the AIs aversion to attacking armies, it's actually valueless). Anybody given serious thought to this?
     
  11. Jaded_Feriluce

    Jaded_Feriluce Dark Lord of the Regents

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    The best use I've seen for armies like that.... (especially the aversion of the AI from attacking it... is to have an army of Mech. Infanty.... and either put it in my most forward city on the front... or use it to fortify and build a HUGE stack of single attackers in front of whatever city Im going to take on next.
     
  12. Turner

    Turner Deity Retired Moderator

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    @Wakboth - Like was previously menitoned, in C3C you can't use MGLs to rush Great Wonders. So if you're no where near building a small wonder, it would just sit there until you were able to build one.

    And I'm pretty sure that having an MGL will not allow you to get a SGL. So in this case, better to use up the MGL and make an army (as opposed to rushing something you could buy with gold anyway) then let it sit and miss out on a SGL.
     
  13. kb2tvl

    kb2tvl King

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    I keep old armies around for garrison duty or to kill off a heavily wounded unit. I also build the pentagon if I want extra culture in a city. It is not a lot but it is something.
     
  14. Duke Togo

    Duke Togo Golgo 13

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    In C3C, Armies get a 1/6 increase in attack and defense (1/4 increase with the Military Academy). They get Blitz, Radar, Pillage, ZOC, Capture, extra movement, and improved healing capabilities.

    Needless to say, I am a BIG believer in Armies (not that I wasn't before). They are a serious force to be reckoned with. That is why I like to keep that extra GL hanging around until my final Army is being built, so I can slide in one more than I am supposed to have.
     
  15. Sukenis

    Sukenis the J'BOOtian Warlord

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    Wakboth,

    I wanted to quote everything that was wrong with your post (and reply to it), but then i realized your entire post is wrong (with my play style that is).

    An army of 4 knights can take on fortifies infentry with little problem. Why is this not great?

    An army with 3 swordsmen can have an infentry added to it, giving it a defense of 14, 2 moves, and free pillage. After getting the Pentagon, this older army become a force again.

    Attack a city on a hill with fortified infentry with 3 (4?) tanks and see how far you get. Take an army with 3 (4?) tanks and blitz attack and watch the city fall. Against another player, watch as your 3 (4?) tanks are bombed down to a useless amount of hp. Run a tank army in and watch that city fall.

    Go ahead and keep that MGL for a SM you do not yet have the tech for and give yourself no chance to get another MGL.

    What difficulty level are you playing on? Armies can be the saving grace as you go higher up in difficulty as well.

    FYI, I play huge maps with 16 civs. This tends to change stratagies.
     
  16. Wakboth

    Wakboth Chieftain

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    Hehe. Everyone's playstyle is a bit different I suppose...

    Which part of "They're only really useful in the ancient and middle ages" did you miss? I said armies are useful during that time period. However, the topic was about whether to use a GL to build an army *after* you have a military academy. Are you saying you use knights and swordsmen for attack after already building the military academy? I'd kinda like to see that...

    Ok. Now we're getting into the right age rang. However, I'd much rather build the 8-10 artillery that I could have built instead of that army if I have the choice.

    You are correct that in C3C, armies are more powerful (as pointed out by a few folks). However, this is the C3 general discussion area. You can't make absolute statements here and assume we're all talking about C3C. The OP certainly did not specify which game he was playing. That aside, even in C3C, it's questionable whether I'd rather have 3-4 tanks or MA in an army, or separate. I can get up to 6-8 attacks with MA. If I've used artillery (as anyone fighting in the modern age should), that means I can destroy up to 8 defending units in the city with practically zero chance of losing a single offensive unit. I can and will use defensive units to protect my tanks/MA, so bombing isn't a problem (and if it is, that means I should be destroying his bombers first). What exactly did building an army get me? Not a whole lot.

    I'm not saying don't build armies. I'm just saying that later in the game, I've rarely *needed* to build that many. 2 or 3 is usually plenty. The last game I played into the modern age, I actually had like 5 armies sitting around mostly idle. I simply couldn't see much they could do that my "normal" units couldn't do just as well. I use them for defensive strong points, when I need to hold a spot in enemy territory (maybe sit an army with my artillery. Yeah. That's a good use for them). But I don't need that many. For attacking? Not terrifically useful. They really aren't.

    Ok. Read what you just said. Then stop and read it again. You're using up a GL that you *don't* need (cause you could have just built an army using your military academy), just so you can hope that you'll get another GL later?

    Why? That's madness! If you need an army, just build one with your military academy and hold the GL for building a SW later. The end result is *exactly* the same, but there's no chance that you'll get unlucky and not get another GL using my method. You didn't get 2 GLs out of your idea. You still end up with just one (you can only ever have one at a time, right?). Do you see what I'm getting at here? If you want to have a GL for later use on a SW and you have a GL now, and you have the military academy, there is no reason at all to "use" the GL. You don't lose anything by holding it (except the relatively small production cost needed to build an army instead of using the GL). You also absolutely guarantee that when the SW becomes available, you'll have the GL to build it in one turn. That far outweighs any other consideration.


    I'm also not sure about the MGL/SGL relationship. If it is the case that you can't get a SGL while holding a MGL, then that's a valid reason to burn it making an army. However, that's a completely different decision. You're basically deciding between types in that case. That was not the question that was posed (should you use a GL for building an army if you have military academy). If your only consideration is whether to build an army so you can get another GL later, or just build an army with the military academy, I still have to say that 99.99999% of the time, you should hold the GL and use the military academy to build an army. I'm sure there are some rare circumstances (like for some reason you need an army and you need one right *now*), but for general play? Hold the GL.

    Usually I float around emperor level depending on whether I'm trying a new idea out or not. I'd do better at deity, except that I tend to get pissed off at the AI and in turn piss them off (hey! I'm a warmonger... nothing wrong with that. :) ). When I'm able to control my impulse to whack anything that enters "my" territory, I usually do much better on higher levels. Heck. I just finished a diplomatic win in which I managed to not start a single war, had everyone in the game gracious to me most of the time, and wasn't even involved in any conflict at all after the ancient age. I did manage to play the resource game and get various other folks to fight eachother. Um... I didn't need any armies to win that one. Honestly, even if I'd been in a major conflict at the end of the game, I still wouldn't have needed armies. My stacks of artillery sitting safely where they could be deployed in a single turn would be vastly more valuable at decimating any attacking force then even the maximum number of armies allowed.


    Heh. Yeah. That will make a difference I suppose. I play standard with 8 usually. That works out about the same really. I still generally don't fight with more then one or two opponents at a time (and fighting two is a *really* bad thing usually). I've rarely seen a need for more then 1 or 2 armies on a front. I suppose if you're using them to attack with, you will need more because your armies are going to constantly be low on hps and sitting around alot recovering. If you use armies primarily as "safe" mobile defensive points, you really only need a very small number of them. They pretty much never die. They generally never even get attacked. I've never really had the number of army limit be a problem in a game. I really would suggest that if you are having problems with that, that maybe you're using your armies incorrectly.
     
  17. Duke Togo

    Duke Togo Golgo 13

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    No, you use it while you are building your LAST Army so you can squeeze in one more Army than you are supposed to be allowed to have. So, lets say you have 24 cities, and you already have 5 Armies built and one being built (1 Army per 4 cities, 6 Armies in total). You also have a GL. If you use that GL while your last Army is in production, instead of being stuck at 6 Armies, you will end up with 7, as that last Army will stay in production and finish its production.

    Why no tuse the GL to build a Small Wonder, you ask? By that point in the game, I have enough cities with high enough production that I don't need to waste GL's on Small Wonders, if I don' thave them all built already as it is.

    Armies are definitely worth it in C3C. Getting an extra one certainly can do nothing but help.
     
  18. Wakboth

    Wakboth Chieftain

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    Ok. Just re-read this and this kinda got me thinking.

    Um... Do the math. Why *not* rush some other project? Let me go through this for you.

    You could use the GL to make an army immediately, using no production.

    You could also use the GL to rush an army build in your city with military academmy, right?

    I hope to heck you see where I'm going with this. Can you see how both of those actions result in the exact same thing? Can we not then simply equate the GL->army transfer to a number of shields of production you saved in your city with the military academy? Yeah. I think we can...

    If you are also building something that requires more shields of production (or raw turns depending on the city and how important the build is), would it not be better in every single case to use the GL to rush that build? Yeah. I think it would...

    The *only* reason to use the GL to simply turn him into an army when you already have a military academy is if you absolutely, positively have to have an army built that turn. Even if it can wait one turn, you don't gain anything (could have rushed an army build and broken even). Most likely you can wait the 6-10 turns it may take to build an army using the military academy.


    Conclusion: If you have the military academy, you should avoid using the GL->Army process unless you absolutely have to have an army *right now*. In every other case, you should use the GL to rush something. Anything at all will do. If you want to hold it for a wonder, do that. If you want to get rid of it so you can try to get another GL, then by all means do so. But rush build something. Don't build an army with it. Unless you have nothing to build in any of your cities that costs more production then an army, you are wasting the GL.
     
  19. Wakboth

    Wakboth Chieftain

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    Duke. Do you really need 7 armies? Really? I just don't see it. What can you accomplish with 7 armies that you couldn't do with 6? How significant is that extra army really? I'm betting, not that much. I can almost guarantee you that with a 24 city civilization, 6 armies is too much. You'd have been better off building maybe 3 or 4 and using the 15-20 extra builds you didn't waste building armies on other units. For example, I'd much rather have 3 armies and use the saved shields to stack the 8-10 cats/trebuchet/cannon/arty on *each* of them that I could have built instead. All for the same approximate shield cost.

    Dunno. Different strokes for different folks. I just consider it a huge waste to use a GL to build an army when you could use it for something else. There's a reason you build military academy. Presumably because it's "better" to build an army with shield production then by blowing a GL on one. If it wasn't, then the game would make armies cost shields to produce at the start, and make you have to build a wonder to allow you to use GLs to convert to armies instead. Think about it...
     
  20. Point13

    Point13 Like a ton of bricks!

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    i hate artillery but i find the army is great when invading another continent. but on land their nice but normal units work fine without needing more cities and stuff...
     

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