Military Gameplay - Terrain Effects in Naval Combat

[Hinin]

Hello everyone,

In this thread, I would like to discuss the opportunity of putting into place a movement system that makes movement in naval combat more dynamic without having to add new 3d models or tile types.

Indeed, one of the things I find most unappealing with naval combat in Civ V is how, because of the lack of terrain costs, the dynamism of land combat is totally absent which, within in the context of a turn-per-turn 4X game, makes naval warfare more about numbers and range than true tactics.

Thus, I would like to propose and exchange with you about ways to spice this all up a bit.

As you know, there are only three possible types of tiles for naval units to pass through : coastal / lakes, atolls and oceans. Here is how I would envision them in the system I propose, which would try to add (some)

Coastal / Lake Tiles - The Rough Terrain of the Seas

As you may know, coastal waters are far from safe for ships. Between reefs, rocks and shoals, it has always been a difficult job to guide ships safely, hence the importance of knowledge and outside help (for example from lightouses). Hence, I propose that we make coastal areas more difficult to traverse for all ships by costing 2 MP per tile. This, of course, means that we need to adapt the amount of MP ships have in order for gameplay to stay enjoyable. I propose 6 MP as the base movement for ships, with the addition of the "Ignore Terrain cost in owned territory" promotion for all naval Units, so that, once a territory is well known, it can be traversed much more quickly.

This movement cost change, alongside the bonus granted to ships in owned territory, will provide an interesting homefield advantage while still allowing those who want to use Ocean tiles for fast travel to quickly move around.

Atoll Tiles - The Defensible Blindspots

The other big change I would like to promote is for Atolls. They are, aside of land tiles, the only type of sea aside from the two "flat" ones, and it has the potential to be transformed into an interesting tactical element. Indeed, it could not only be provided a elevation change to make it difficult to see through it, but a defense bonus (something like +25% CS) and a movement penalty to enter the tile should also be applied I think (4 MP cost perhaps ?). With these simple changes, hiding behind atolls or using them as pivots for defensive tactics could be possible.

That's all. As I said, I do not think it is possible to add other elements to water tiles, but at least we can do some things. As always, thanks for reading, and have a good day.

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

I definitely agree on naval territory needs a bit more flare. As terrible as the actual combat was in humankind (embarked troops were the best boats) the various reefs, rocks, etc. Giving bonus CS and partially blocking line of sight like forest was a great step up of civ 5's naval gameplay

 

[Tekamthi]

Rare visit to the forums here for me lately, but this is always a personal favorite topic. Mentioned in other threads that have discussed similar, the stone resource model in water has nice effect as a shoal. I'd prefer a distinct tile for slow water than all coast cost 2 moves. Alternatively I do enjoy different units specialized for faster movement in each, though iirc this is (or was) a non starter for ai. I've tried a lot of naval stuff and stone model in water as a shoal is probably best fit to do OP concept of slower water tiles imo

The atoll suggestion is generally good, something more should be done there. Specifically I would make them block vision across the tile as was mentioned, but act as defensive malus to any unit in the tile (they cannot maneuver as freely). Probably could also allow Infantry to disembark onto them?

 

[Amask]

...with the addition of the "Ignore Terrain cost in owned territory" promotion for all naval Units, so that, once a territory is well known, it can be traversed much more quickly.

This movement cost change, alongside the bonus granted to ships in owned territory, will provide an interesting homefield advantage while still allowing those who want to use Ocean tiles for fast travel to quickly move around.

I don't see anything interesting about giving the defender even more advantages than they already enjoy.

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

I love all that plus add the storms from this https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/maritime-battles-vp.26776/
having natural disasters in civ was something I never knew I really really wanted until I saw it in civ 6

 

[Tekamthi]

add the storms from this

the way these are implemented in MB+ is likely to be considered too hacky by the mainbranch community here. They work well for game-play but they are "improvements" rather than "features" within the game database, and require some lua hooks that unmodded VP generally does not use in order to shoehorn into this alternative role. The civ 5 graphics engine cannot handle dynamic features other than forests/jungle/marsh.

just for reference, here is the current in-game visual

Spoiler :

I'll return for more updates to the modmod eventually however, will try to get these working really well even if they dont fit for VP itself.

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

the way these are implemented in MB+ is likely to be considered too hacky by the mainbranch community here. They work well for game-play but they are "improvements" rather than "features" within the game database, and require some lua hooks that unmodded VP generally does not use in order to shoehorn into this alternative role. The civ 5 graphics engine cannot handle dynamic features other than forests/jungle/marsh.

just for reference, here is the current in-game visual

Spoiler :

I'll return for more updates to the modmod eventually however, will try to get these working really well even if they dont fit for VP itself.

what if they were made to be units that do damage but don't home in and attack units intelligently

 

[Tekamthi]

what if they were made to be units that do damage but don't home in and attack units intelligently

its an alternative but still has some drawbacks. When i considered this initially, i couldn't find any way to make a unit fully unattackable, so like we make these into barbarian storms and all the AI's will plink away at them

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

its an alternative but still has some drawbacks. When i considered this initially, i couldn't find any way to make a unit fully unattackable, so like we make these into barbarian storms and all the AI's will plink away at them

did that guy who made this mod figure that out? https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/violent-storms.30093/

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

btw hinin you might have to still add more units or split the 2 lines of units to handle different types of water
in real life there are different classes of ship to handle shallow waters
like make submarines take damage, or unable to go on the coast, or almost no movement on the coast

 

[Tekamthi]

did that guy who made this mod figure that out? https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/violent-storms.30093/

nah check the discussion its full of imperfections, captures civilians etc. That one is controlled by barbarian movement AI -- i would make them immobile and moved by some other lua method, but again this kinda thing falls out of scope for VP itself. the modded feature/improvement combo is much better imo for this purpose

 

[KlHannibal2]

Hello everyone,

In this thread, I would like to discuss the opportunity of putting into place a movement system that makes movement in naval combat more dynamic without having to add new 3d models or tile types.

Indeed, one of the things I find most unappealing with naval combat in Civ V is how, because of the lack of terrain costs, the dynamism of land combat is totally absent which, within in the context of a turn-per-turn 4X game, makes naval warfare more about numbers and range than true tactics.

Thus, I would like to propose and exchange with you about ways to spice this all up a bit.

As you know, there are only three possible types of tiles for naval units to pass through : coastal / lakes, atolls and oceans. Here is how I would envision them in the system I propose, which would try to add (some)

Coastal / Lake Tiles - The Rough Terrain of the Seas

As you may know, coastal waters are far from safe for ships. Between reefs, rocks and shoals, it has always been a difficult job to guide ships safely, hence the importance of knowledge and outside help (for example from lightouses). Hence, I propose that we make coastal areas more difficult to traverse for all ships by costing 2 MP per tile. This, of course, means that we need to adapt the amount of MP ships have in order for gameplay to stay enjoyable. I propose 6 MP as the base movement for ships, with the addition of the "Ignore Terrain cost in owned territory" promotion for all naval Units, so that, once a territory is well known, it can be traversed much more quickly.

This movement cost change, alongside the bonus granted to ships in owned territory, will provide an interesting homefield advantage while still allowing those who want to use Ocean tiles for fast travel to quickly move around.

Atoll Tiles - The Defensible Blindspots

The other big change I would like to promote is for Atolls. They are, aside of land tiles, the only type of sea aside from the two "flat" ones, and it has the potential to be transformed into an interesting tactical element. Indeed, it could not only be provided a elevation change to make it difficult to see through it, but a defense bonus (something like +25% CS) and a movement penalty to enter the tile should also be applied I think (4 MP cost perhaps ?). With these simple changes, hiding behind atolls or using them as pivots for defensive tactics could be possible.

That's all. As I said, I do not think it is possible to add other elements to water tiles, but at least we can do some things. As always, thanks for reading, and have a good day.

I like your idea for coastal tiles. In the early game however, I prefer the current system where ships are confined to a narrow strip of shallow water. This should not be changed IMO. Once ships can enter ocean without penatly, I like your concept. Another idea to maybe add: melee ships could still move without penalty. Rationale: those are typically smaller ships that also have an easier time in coastal waters in real life. Gameplay-wise, melee ships are usually less useful than ranged ships and make up a smaller portion of a fleet. This change would give them an edge, especially without costing resources. They could be a good defensive force for smaller empires that don't have resources for many ranged ships

 

[ma_kuh]

Since I did some thinking about naval terrain already in the Congress Workshop thread I'll cross-post it here:

Proposal series: Terrain Feature Tweaks

Proposal 1:
I want to revisit the notion of having Atolls behave as water-hills: +1 terrain height, 15% defense bonus to ships stationed over them, 2 movement cost.
Edit: Great Barrier Reef also has a defense bonus. Consider creating parity with this modifier for consistency purposes.


Proposal 2:
As a companion to changing Atolls, look into adding a "stormy ocean" type of tile. 2 movement cost, blocks line of sight (like forest), ending turn in this tile adds a single-turn debuff that reduces vision by 1. No yield changes as part of this feature.
Edit: Maritime Battles for VP has an implementation for stormy oceans based on randomly creating and removing them. Some performance and bugginess issues, but maybe a good springboard for implementation.


Proposal 3:
Update Communitu atoll placement logic and add placement logic for stormy oceans. A little TBD, but some initial thinking:

The atoll placements are fairly straightforward: must be coast, must be within a certain south/north latitude band, and must have 3 neighboring ocean tiles. The more features already exist within 3 tiles, the less likely an atoll is to spawn. This logic would need to be modified so that atolls can spawn farther from terrain, either freely in the ocean in micro-chains, or just increase their placement distance from 3 => 5 (e.g.). Ocean tiles would need to flip to coast when applicable (I think). Also, the chance to place may need changes depending on other adjustments.

Stormy oceans would need new functions entirely. Placement logic tbd, but freely floating and using world temperature and rainfall would probably be a good place to start. Maybe logic for clustering them a little bit.

Edit: Features can accidentally create passages over ocean. Placement logic may need to consider this.


Proposal 4:
Give Marsh and Oasis unique defensive qualities to differentiate combat theatres a little bit. Deserts gain pockets of fast-healing, as do jungles and other wet grasslands. In practice, the healing only applies if the unit stops for two+ turns (March units can move immediately but only get bonus healing once).

Edit: If March is changed to be flat healing, this should probably not interact with it. May need to edit tooltip/help tip to reflect this.

Remove the +CS when defending in Marsh and Oasis.
Units ending their turn on Marsh and Oasis tiles are granted Plentiful Provisions for 1 turn.
Add a loading tip that explains "Units ending their turn on Marshes and Oases heal a little more each turn."
New promotion: Plentiful Provisions
This unit heals 5 additional health per turn. Removed after 1 turn.

The main thing I want to inject into this discussion is "Proposal 3: Update Communitu atoll placement logic..."

Basically, I think atolls being +1 height, rough, and defensive is part of the solution, and making sure they exist in the open ocean so you can play around them is the other. And on the discussion of Atolls: +CS or -CS? I would say they are more interesting (and I think better for the AI?) if they are defensive bastions rather than traps. I logic it as your ships can fortify on the atoll's islets and provide support from a stable location, whereas surrounding vessels cannot; hence the relative CS bonus.

My personal feeling on the matter of "stormy oceans" is that dynamic terrain isn't necessary, it's already enough that some tiles can be just vision blocking, they don't need to move around. It's way easier to implement and maintain, and is still a great upgrade to naval combat.

I'm somewhat on the fence about Coast acting as rough terrain, I understand the idea that rocks, bars, etc. are more dangerous to ship hulls than the ocean, but the ocean is dangerous in its own right. I do buy the argument that you'd want inter-continental Ocean travel to be less of a slog, so mechanically speaking I can get behind it, it's just a little weird that you'd be operating with these double-movement point pools that expend at twice the rate earlier in the game.