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Military Tactics T94-T120

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, May 31, 2009.

  1. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    I think Damnrunner's plan is sound. It seems to me that this will pretty much be the war to end all wars (at least as far as Sancta is concerned). If we screw this up, then I don't see how we can win. I'd sacrifice a few extra turns of unhappiness to get more troops.

    Also... if we do actually manage to defeat Sancta, let's be really careful of Cav. If we lose our stack and they still have theirs... then we might get backstabbed.

    So let's make sure that Cav's stack gets exposed to Sancta first shall we?
     
  2. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Since we are gearing up for total war we want CAV to do the same. We should insist that they draft also (they are much better suited to drafting then we are with all their cities so they should leverage the crap out of it and build a massive army).

    We then make CAV carry most of the load in the war, never risking our main stack. It's in CAVs interests to go all out- if we loose this fight SANCTA will beat them too. When the dust settles we will have a bunch of new cities and an army strong enough to deter a backstab.
     
  3. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    The plan sounds great. Maybe we'll get some good luck here and there to average out the bad luck we had earlier.
     
  4. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I am working on a post that would be a draft for our military plans. But some more recent screen shots would be useful. Would it be possibe to request a shot of the domestic advisor screen.

    Also we need to send a response to Cav along teh lines Cav Scout suggested. Essentially, "you have an advantage in drafting and slaving - use it."
     
  5. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    SANCTA doesn't have any units stationed inside TKY, just their mobile stack on the hill to the East and 1 spear NW (see screenshot in turn log). I imagine they have a stack on their Western border to stop any CAV attack across the river... if not then we are in luck.
     
  6. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I think we should have a bit of a discussion on combat and unit upgrades. The turn taker (looks like Cav Scout) is going to be making these decisions in game and micro managing this on-the-fly as a team will be pretty much impossible. Therefore a discussion beforehand could be really useful in giving the turn taker ideas that best reflect the desire and intent of the team.

    Combat
    Santca was very effective in attacking us with weak units 1st and then killing our stack with stronger units. I my view, keeping our redcoats alive will be a top priority but this could get difficult as our redcoats will be the 1st units to take damage whenever Sancta attacks our stack. Our cannons will be most survivable as they take no collateral damage and are the last to be targeted in the stack. That should be used to our advantage.

    Upgrades
    With Theo we will start to have a bunch of options for upgrading our units.

    Knights – C2 I think makes the most sense for all of them. Except maybe one medic.

    Redcoats (also pikes & muskets) – Many options here. Pinch, Combat 2, woodsman II, Guerilla II. A few Guerilla II units will be really useful to defend hill top tiles and hilltop cities. These should be in the stack when we move to attack Dragon Tears. Woodsman II – useful once we have dragon tears and TKY. Great for harassing Sancta in the jungle to the north and east. Combat 2 – I think about 60%+ of our redcoats should have C2. Once these units reach 10xp they have a great # of additional options and can upgrade to amphibious, anti cavalry, C3, or anti siege. Pinch upgrades will make our redcoats essentially invincible vs. gunpowder units until Sancta has grenadiers and rifles.

    -For the initial stack I think we primarily want C2 upgrades as the biggest initial threat will be from knights. Should probably include 1 pinch redcoat. 2 Guerilla II units could also be useful to deter Sancta from moving a counter stack onto a hill and threaten Taraz.

    Cannons – city raider, barrage, bombard, combat 2, drill, withdrawal – huge # of options. A good number of barrage units are always needed to weaken enemy stacks (this should probably be the biggest component of our stack). After that I am not sure what is most useful. We may be fighting our biggest battles defensively or in the field where C2 would be quite useful. For that reason I think C2 is probably the 2nd most useful. A few city raiders is helpful to kill the strongest defensive units (CG3 LBs and later rifles) in Sancta cities. I am not sure if bombard units are a useful. It speeds the ability to bring down cultural defenses but we can also use C2 cannons and damaged cannons for this purpose. I also think we should avoid the withdrawal upgrade, at least for the time being. Once Sancta starts building cavalry and we face higher potential casualties for our cannons then these may be useful. The Drill upgrade is oft overlooked, and I think 1 or 2 drill cannons could actually be hugely useful to mop up severely weakened units. But again – barrage, C2, and city raider are probably the most important.

    -I think it makes sense to give most of our existing 6 single upgrade catapults/cannons the barrage upgrade and promote our upcoming 6 new cannons as follows 2 CRII cannons, 1 drill II, and 3 C2. After that 60% barrage and the rest mostly C2.

    Medics – we need a few medics. I think 2 makes the most sense. Once we capture a city we will need one to stay with wounded units and one to move forward with the rest of the stack. I always think mobile medic units are the best as they can quickly move to where they are needed most.

    Great Generals
    Also what do we want to do with the inevitable GG we should be receiving once the war gets going.
    As I have only played vanilla I am not that familiar with how GGs work. Settling is probably best in the long term but as we will be at war I think we may get greater benefit from attaching it to a unit. But then the question is what unit? A redcoat is probably the most obvious, but I think a cannon might also be a good idea. Are naval GGs ever effective?
     
  7. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    damnrunner, remember that in BTS siege units cannot kill units outright, so we don't want Drill for cannons. (I'm not even sure if drill is available anymore)

    Knights: What do you think of making some withdraw chance knights? We need 2 medic knights I think. But we could probably get away with using 1 medic knight initially, and promote a C1 knight to Medic later. I would also vote for a sentry knight... I think we only have 1 spy. In case he dies, a sentry on the advance stack would be extremely useful. Until we get cavalry, I think knights are mostly utility and cleanup units for us. They are simply not strong enough to form the main line of battle.

    Another good idea may be to build a chariot or warrior or something similar and using that as the medic. This would be slightly more hammer efficient and minimizes the chance that our medic will be killed. If we can build explorers, a medic explorer would be ideal. (I THINK explorers can get medic upgrades, but not 100% sure)

    Redcoats: I largely concur with you. But I would lean against large numbers of guerrilla and woodsmen units. If we plan on keeping our stack together in large scale battles instead of just pressuring and harassing from the hills or jungle, these types of upgrades actually can decrease the flexibility of our army depending on which units get killed in battle. But a few "utility" units are fine.

    Cannons: Definitely no bombard. Unless we lose a crapload of cannon, we won't have problems blasting through culture. A few city raider is a must (I'd say maybe 1/4 of our cannon force). I'd lean the other ones mostly on combat (I'm actually not sure if combat is available for cannons in BTS... but I think it is) and barrage--these are the most useful upgrades for attacking on open ground, which I assume the biggest battles will take place. Maybe 2-ish withdraw upgrades would be useful for later.


    As for the GGs, I think we should save them for the academies. We want at least 2 academies IMO, one in the capital and one in Pav. And possible 1 more somewhere else if we get one.
     
  8. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    My two cents:

    I always like to use my first great general to create a super medic. I generally use an outdated garrison warrior or other cheap unit since great generals get free upgrades. I then upgrade to pike/machinegun/etc and keep him totally defensive with my main stack. One idea would be to use our first GG to make our chariot a super medic with a free upgrade to knight.

    I upgrade my siege with either city raider (for attacking cities of course) or barrage (for attacking a stack in the open). We should save out siege unit promotions until right before we commit them to battle (a tip Kaleb taught me in our team game). I would only use combat promotions for siege in dire defensive situations.
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Siege can't kill units outright in BTS? I understand they can't kill with collateral damage - but they can't kill units at all - that is very annoying. So not drill then. Makes sense not to upgrade to barrage until right before an attack. But we should not save other upgrades – that hurt us pretty badly last time around. Also if siege can’t kill units, combat promotions are far less helpful.

    Great point on upgrading some sentry knights. That would be very useful.

    I like the idea of a super medic. But I don’t think we want to make a GG out of a marginal unit. We want the GG to also be able to attack so that it can continue to gain more xp. Would a super medic cannon make sense? As a siege unit it would not take collateral damage and would not be the 1st unit targeted when our stack is attacked. Also my understanding is that there is GG upgrade that allows units near the GG unit to accrue xp faster. That could be very useful and would it also help us get our 2nd and 3rd GGs faster. Anyhow some food for thought.
     
  10. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Well you can start out with a GG and a warrior and then after you join them you can upgrade straight to a redcoat for zero gold :D

    When you make the GG a warlord he will attach to one unit in the tile he is on and the XP bonus gets spread to all units in that tile evenly. So if you have only 1 unit on the tile that units gets all the XP and can get like 5 promotions (medic 3 and then some).

    I agree that saving our promotions for our line units last time was a mistake, we were overconfident and thought that SANCTA would turtle instead of being proactive and attacking us.

    Here are my latest calculations for what our stack will look like when we DoW on 159 and move SW of Zero:

    3 knights
    6 redcoats
    6 catapults
    6 cannons
    4 Muskets
    3 maces
    3 pikes

    Hopefully we will have enough cash to upgrade all the cats and maybe some of the muskets and maces too before we step off.

    Taraz defense force- 2 longbows, 1 crossbow, 1 chariot and 1 spear.
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    That looks like a fairly good stack. Sancta would need around 20 units (+ their usual luck) to really threaten the stack. If Sancta continues to add a Knight to their mobile stack each turn we should be fine.

    A 3rd front? Our navy gives us some options to attack by sea. For one if Sancta still has a ship off their coast we could easily kill it with a frigate. At this point there is not much point to delay declaring war – so if we see an opportunity for a cheap kill we should take it. Frigates can also start bombarding Phoenix, and once the Carrack makes the journey to the Fish city we will have a pretty credible invasion force. And if we do attack the city do we keep it? I think not, as it will be a lot easier to raze the city and will take a smaller commitment of resources.

    Defense of Taraz. Sancta could do a quick (1 turn) build of a road near the border and attack Taraz on the same turn with their stack of knights. They would 1st have to reposition the stack – but we should boost up defense in Taraz just in case. They already saw our stack from the border pop so there is no point in hiding it.
     
  12. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    My votes, if possible:

    3 knights: sentry, medic, medic
    6 redcoats: 3 combat, combat; 2 combat, pinch 1 other (woodsmen? Guerrilla?)
    6 catapults: Are we upgrading these to Cannon?
    6 cannons:2 cityraid, cityraid; 4 barrage, barrage
    4 Muskets: We upgrading these? Not sure what upgrades available.
    3 maces: Already promoted or no?
    3 pikes: keep as is to deter knights/eles

    I'm pretty divided on whether to make withdraw chance cannons or no. Withdraw is sometimes better than barrage for several reasons:

    We have lots of collateral in our stack. We are not short on collateral damage at all, but we really want to keep our cannon alive so enable us to lengthen the campaign. Versus Sancta units of knights/eles/maces and potentially cuirassiers, a withdraw cannon (or combat cannon) has the highest chance of survival.

    So I think the best tactic is to start the battle with the withdraw or combat cannon. He will damage the strongest unit(s) and quite possibly survive. If he wins, we might be able to destroy the entire sancta stack without losing more than 1-2 units.

    Anyway, my 2 cents...
     
  13. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    and yes we should upgrade our units before the battle. If we are going into enemy territory, we probably won't be able to attack first.


    Also, a super medic might be an okay idea. I'd be really scared of having a super-medic-redcoat because he'd become a target while defending and could easily get killed. My super medics tend to be junky units that won't get targeted. A machine gun might work too because they are extremely tough and don't take collateral.

    But that's just a question of style. I personally mostly make military academies with my GG and rely on normal medics.
     
  14. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Would a super medic Cannon not get targeted?
     
  15. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    cannons can get targeted like any other unit. But they don't take collateral, which is a plus.
    I'd lean against a medic cannon though for the simple reason that we would be really scared to use it to assault Sancta stacks and cities. Even with good upgrades, cannons simply don't survive well in attacks due to their low strength. I think it defeats the purpose to have a relatively expensive unit that we'd be really reluctant to use or lose due to a bad RNG roll.
     
  16. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Is that anther change in BTS? In Vanilla catapults and cannons are targeted last after all other units even if the other units are weaker than the cannon.
     
  17. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    well I don't remember if that's a change but that's how it is in BTS. Cannons WILL defend if they are the strongest unit in the stack.
     
  18. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Just so you guys know, most of our units won't have enough xp for 2 promotions right away. In fact, many don't have any xp at all since we did alot of earlier builds without barracks. And when we draft redcoats they will only have 2 xp even with barracks and theo.
     
  19. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    This is my speculation on a worst case scenario for Sancta’s 1st strike. It actually is not even all that worse case as sancta could easily have a larger stack depending on when they get rifles.


    Starting stacks

    Spoiler :
    Our army
    3 knights
    6 redcoats
    6 catapults
    6 cannons
    4 Muskets
    3 maces
    3 pikes
    Taraz defense force- 2 longbows, 1 crossbow, 1 chariot and 1 spear.

    Sancta
    5 catapults (they can/should have more or can/should build more very quickly)
    15 knights (they keep bringing more up)
    3 rifles (they will have rifling before we attack)
    3 maces (I thought they had some veterans lurking around from the 1st battle)
    2 LB
    1 spear


    Sancta’s attack.

    Spoiler :
    Sancta attacks with Catapults
    -5 catapults target redcoats 2 withdraw, 3 die. (all units take collateral)

    Sancta attacks with Knights
    -6 Knights target redcoats 1 withdraws, 3 die, 2 win.
    -3 knights target pikes 1 dies 2 win
    -6 knights target cannons 1 withdraws, 2 die 3 win.

    Sancta attacks with rifles
    -3 rifles target muskets 3 win

    Sancta attacks with maces
    -1 mace targets musket 1 dies
    -2 maces target knights 2 win


    Final outcome
    Spoiler :
    We have
    4 wounded redcoats
    3 wounded cannons
    1 wounded musket
    2 wounded pikes
    1 knight (with collateral damage)
    3 maces (with collateral damage)
    6 catapults

    Total of 20 units (9 of which are siege)

    Sancta has
    2 wounded catapult
    9 wounded knights
    3 wounded rifles
    2 wounded maces
    2 LB
    1 spear

    Total of 19 units (3 are undamaged)


    Conclusions
    After the attack we will have enough siege units to bombard the city to 0% defenses and to bring all Sancta units down to 85% health (most will already be under this threshold due to damage from combat or those units that withdrew from combat). But we will NOT have enough units to kill all of Sancta’s units in the city.

    Proposals to better our odds
    -Upgrading catapults to cannons will result in more cannons taking damage (at better odds due to avoidance of collateral damage) and more muskets / knights surviving.
    -moving up the X-bow from Taraz. This unit will take damage when the maces attack and could save a musket or knight.
    -keep our knights 1 tile back. This way they can attack Zero the following turn at full strength. This would result in our maces (and possibly muskets) in the stack taking more damage
    -upgrading muskets to rifles – useful – but cannons may be better investment.
    -include the elephant in Haz in the stack. We can draft defenses in Haz if we really need to and the Ele will be good defense for a knight.
     
  20. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Good analysis Damnrunner. I think we should definitely upgrade all of the cats and most if not all of the muskets and maces before we step into SANCTA lands. Bringing up the elephant as defense against all their knights is a good idea too.

    We have to be able to bear the full brunt of a SANCTA attack and then be able to counter and finish their stack. If not then we aren't bringing enough forces. We can't afford to go in weak and get destroyed again, our units are just too precious.

    Ideally though SANCTA will deplete themselves attacking a CAV stack first, making it much easier for us. We really need to make sure that CAV takes the first hit somehow. This might mean holding off on positioning next to Zero one turn (turn 160 instead of 159).

    Also, our stack will be in the open next to Zero while CAVs will be on a hill next to TKY. If I was SANCTA I would delay CAV at TKY (accepting that CAV will take the city) while rushing south to destroy our stack (effectively knocking us out of the fight). I would then fall back Dragon Tears as my main defensive postion and gather forces to counter attack CAV.

    The deception plan to get SANCTA thinking we are planning an early naval assault on Phoenix will help them to initially fixate on CAV's stack as well.
     

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