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Mines : what are they ?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Naokaukodem, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    I had this thinking when trying to think about a model of nomadism with decaying resources.

    Usually in mines you work some resource. Like stone, copper or iron. (or gold, silver, gems, etc etc) But, in Civ, mines just give hammers even if they don't give you any of the three.

    Forests are different : usually you can work wood, or resources from the animals in there.

    So there should not be mines that give you nothing. Instead, you should be able to allocate a specialist that give you +1 or +2 hammers.

    In upcoming Civs, mines should be the exception not the rule. Production would be something the player have to actively look for, and spots with a lot or mine-potential places (always with a resource in it, even if it serves only for mine hammers production) would be highly looked by all the players (and the AI) Plus, as now in Civ, hammers could be harvested out of mines. (in camps : for animal resources, in plains for the same, etc. + a comeback of the one hammered grass)
     
  2. ldvhl

    ldvhl ніщо

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    The "specialist" is the citizen who works the tile that contains the mine.
     
  3. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    But it's not a specialist, it's a worker occupying a tile.

    Granted, the absence of a system of resources -> manufactured goods is not to help. What represents a hammer is constantly changing, hammers represent the industry in its globality (like facturing pizzas for the workers), but for a purpose of clarity for a future or hypothetic system of resource decay, such a detailled system would be good.

    Because, the specialist inside the city represents the manpower facturing goods out of resources, but are really miners involved in such manpower ? They do no more than collecting resources, they are the expandable and bottom part of all the chain. They should not contribute SO MUCH to the manpower of a city. They shouldn't even be represented in the game. Putting mines all around the map, MAKING most of the production of a civilization is a gimmick. And I'm sure we can pass through such gimmicks in a modern Civilization.
     
  4. Quineloe

    Quineloe Prince

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    Civ doesn't make any distinction between workers working a tile and working a building. It's an arbitrary term. Working an off-shore oil rig requires much more education than working at a super market.

    I don't want to play a game that is so overly complicated on basic issues. The main focus of the game should be empire building, diplomacy and war, not tile improvements. That's why you can automate workers.
     
  5. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    What ?? Of course there is a distinction, and I mentionned it already. Workers working tiles work tiles, whereas specialists, or unallocated workers are obtained by unclicking a tile worker or clicking on the slot of a building.

    What I'm saying is that unallocated workers could produce more, while being more difficult to find hammer production right out of the city. For example production could be majorely from the city, not the tiles, and mines shouldn't produce anything unless we assume mines are "mini-cities" with blacksmiths and other trades in them, which could be a theme of a Civ but would need to be reflected by mechanics.

    Ha, you basically take the two extremum of each case, which isn't fair. Off-shore platform are very modern, and are by far not the main source of hammers in the game.

    By the way I was talking about mines, not off-shore platform so...

    Improvements have always been a core mechanic of the franchise, now you can discuss about their purpose or key meaning to not exist, but I'm afraid that's not really the topic of this thread, as you seem to put it at least.
     
  6. Syailendra

    Syailendra Prince

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    man, even in ancient era, mining have been the very source of building and tools material, ever heard of clay? Or tar? Or obsidian? Those resources is dug from the mother earth.
     
  7. Vandal Thorne

    Vandal Thorne Warlord

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    They are getting you tin, lead, and similar ores and minerals that are so numerous that they aren't worth modeling as a separate resource. That is what generic mines do.
     
  8. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    Sure, but they are just what they are, resources and not manufacturing. (with some exceptions however, like clay that could be difficult to transport as it and needed a local work, but it's an exception) Plus, it's not like we could build a mine on every damn hill. Why mines on hills by the way ? It just doesn't make sense.
     
  9. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Not every mine appears on a hill. "Generic" mines are limited to hill tiles (for gameplay reasons, not reality), but strategic resources and salt deposits are often found on flat land. I really like mined iron deposits on flat grassland tiles.
     
  10. Syailendra

    Syailendra Prince

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    hills providing the possibility to dig horizontally, a much easier and cheaper methods of mining.
     
  11. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    I knew somebody would have said that, but mines on flat lands displays an actual resource.

    But let me clear my thinking, which is unclear in my OP. Mining iron for example is just that, recovering the raw material. It does not involve (or exceptionnally ;) ) working it. Usually working the raw material is done in cities, in the case of Civ at least. That's why it would seem better to toy with specialists to obtain production, rather than obtaining it around the city.

    Seems a valid justification, but it does not justificate why ALL hills can be mined. :)
     
  12. Vandal Thorne

    Vandal Thorne Warlord

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    Clay can be transported just fine. A mine is an abstraction that represents "industry."

    Mines on hills, possibly because many hills are actually rock outcroppings.

    I am lost though. What was the point of your post?

    In a lot of games that deal with resource management the simplest abstractions are used: farms = food production; mines = raw material for production (which abstracts to city production -- don't forget that tile outputs are essentially city outputs so all food, production, etc. is part of a city's industries)

    A good reference can be found here: http://www.nma.org/index.php/minerals-publications/40-common-minerals-and-their-uses

    All in all, it isn't broke so there's no need to fix it. There are other, better issues to explore (cough, tech tree, cough).
     
  13. Quineloe

    Quineloe Prince

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    If you think of a market or a workshop as a tile inside the city, that kinda changes it. There's no relevant distinction.

    Back in Civ 1 you also built mines on hills and got 3 shields out of them instead of nothing. But if that hill had coal, you got 5 shields. Putting mines on hills regardless of the presence of a specific resource has been a recurring core mechanic of the improvements part of the game.

    Just like you irrigate flat land (that's why build a farm hotkey is I even today).

    If you made mines only possible on tiles with a resource that can be mined, hill tiles without fresh water or a resource would become just flat out terrible tiles no one would want to work. I don't see the added value here.

    The only issue I see myself is that I think just 1 lousy extra hammer for the presence of iron or stone on a tile isn't good enough. But that's different from nerfing standard hills.
     
  14. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    One more reason to disctinct raw materials and "manufacturing".

    Yes. But it's unsatisfying for elaborating more precise ideas.

    So you put a mine on every hill so you can get... rock. :undecide:

    Just read it, or do it again. ;)

    The Settlers franchise is implying raw materials and their transformation, which is much more simple and understandable.

    All in all, tech tree isn't broke so there's no need to fix it. There are other, better issues to explore (cough, mines, cough)

    The city occupies one tile only, whereas you can have a virtually unlimited amount of specialists. You heard of the term "specialists", didn't you ?

    Now you are right in saying that a tile worker not working food could be called a specialist also, but in that case there can't be more of those specialists than there are tiles workable by the city. (in case the city is in desert/ice and have a lot of fresh water/fish)

    In Civ5 you can now farm hills with fresh water. Why in Civ6 wouldn't we able to farm hills without fresh water as long as they are fertile ? Because there's less earth on hill that are only rock ? So why are we able to farm fresh water hills ? Why trees, that are growthes slightly more important than wheat for example, grow absolutely everywhere even on mountains as long as the altitude is not too high ?And why EVERY hill is giving 2 hammers automatically ? Because one can pick up raw materials in them in the wild ? This makes absolutely no sense !

    That seems however well in accordance with the game philosophy. If every hill is full of all kinds of raw materials, very usefull to build a Library for example, iron should not even add a single hammer.
     
  15. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    I think the problem you are really looking at is the fact that the game models a supply side economy. For the vast majority of human history, this has been correct. What limited growth was the inability to produce materials and goods fast enough to satisfy all demand, whereas the modern economy is constrained by demand. This is what hammers represent- stuff. The more bricks and stone and wood (ie, stuff) you can pull out of the ground, the faster your city can finish constructing a building.
     
  16. Syailendra

    Syailendra Prince

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    but, don't you think that it is impossible for pre industrial era cities to actually acts as a production center.
    Imagine this, why would you want to transport cheap and heavy clay 100km away, to a place where fire woods are scarce and expensive (of course, its the city), when you could transport pots or bricks instead if you make them in the rural where firewoods is plenty.
    Then again, why would you transports iron ore, if you could smelt them easier where the firewoods is easy to get.
    This is the condition for thousand of years, up until finally man finds the way to harness steam power.
     
  17. MKDELTA3

    MKDELTA3 Warlord

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    They're mining rocks for buildings. :)

    The :c5production: are just a very big abstraction. I would like to see some extra resources but I don't know if I want to go back to the Civ III/IV style where almost every unit needed some kind of strategic resource and you were royally screwed if you didn't get any. Civ IV with no Iron or Copper starts. Civ III with gunpowder units requiring Salpeter. :sad:
     
  18. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    Civilization can never realistically reflect how an economy functions on all levels from harvesting specific primary materials through to the processing of manufactured goods and services. Its just too complex to ever be done.

    There have been some Turn-based-strategy (TBS) games that do implement a 'raw material resource' which has to go through a 'refining' process to be used. Every TBS has a slightly different way of running an economy but the challenge is finding the balance between realism and user-friendliness. You don't want to turn this into a game where you have to track every specific resource down to the right timbers and animal skins to get archers etc.

    But yeah you do have a point mines realistically are often not located on hills. Australia for instance a very flat continent and has access to a variety of massive mineral resources. Its just that the continent has been free of major tectonic activity for so long that much of the landforms are well worn down leaving heavy mineral deposits exposed.

    That said I do wish the latter part of the game would better represent the transition to a specialist economy rather than a tile-working one. BNW improved that with the 6 guild specialists but I wish it could take it a bit further to more closely represent the massive megacity economies that are founded on banking, finance, telecom, entertainment and IT industry's. Who knows maybe in another expansion or Civ 6 we'll see a corporation (economic) victory.

    It would be cool if there was some more non-essential bonus resources though. 3 examples I can think are Geothermal vents (could be found in Tundra tiles and are boost productivity like solar plants to for deserts. Rare-Earth metals would be another that would provide a production/combat bonus to late game units and buildings. Mineral sands for coastal tiles to make sea-side cities a little more productive in the latter game.
     

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