Ministry of Bean Counting for SABER Term 5

[Marsden]

I'm taking my appointment to this post seriously, although I'm actually starting to be happy that I was appointed, I was content to comment and watch previously, but I won't be just watching now.

Unless there's a recall election. ​

I'm going to try to break it down city by city and then try to address the empire as a whole directly afterward. We need to increase our coast utilization, it reduces sheilds but increases trade and the commerce will be more important for our research plans.

Our Beloved Capital:



After Katana finishes it's Market, I'd like a tile or two to the capital from there and let Katana have more sea tiles, except I'd missed that Katana doesn't have a harbor yet, so that needs to be in place first, D'oh

Other cities in alphabetical order ​

I'd like a library here, although it's not a priority. Clearing the swamps are, so the worker should finish.



If we stop this worker and put the next citizen on the iron would we manage a second uncorrupted sheild? If so I say change worker to library, this is one of the towns where I think a library asap is needed.



Can we get a few more workers here, then start the aquaduct? I'd like to add a few citizens to some of the other towns. Also want a library and harbor and market.



Library right away, we need the culture here.



After the Market is finished, start a library, we can utilize the coast tiles, and a harbor.



A library here, could the forrests be chopped or will we need them later? When we attain engineering we can replant in other squares and chop them too.



Library and a harbor here, could the worker be delayed? Maybe disbanding some units here would speed those along. After the culture expands we can use the whale.



Library after the market, then units



Change to library and then harbor, would a courthouse benefit us here? I think so.



Lots of swamp. A library eventually, a worker or 2 for now.



This is an important city. After the market a courthouse would help here. And then a harbor and library, then utilize more coast for trade.



A harbor, then library and market, eventually needs aquaduct.



After the market and a harbor, try to increase at least one more citizen to make as much trade as possible and then a library and courthouse.



Priority on library, I want the Go Go's to squirm, although I don't have any illusion of actually stealling their towns, at least we should block them from taking ours. A harbor might not work here because of the afformentioned enemy town.



After the worker, a library and then either more workers or a courthouse and market.

Are we going to settle on the pennisula north east of Mos Eisley? We have a settler.

​

 

[Marsden]

After the Market finishes, start library and then courthouse. Maybe the forests can be cut and replanted.



After the library finishes, then start a courthouse or units.



Library after worker finishes.



This is a good worker factory to build up our other slow growing towns, but we need a library here too, soon. We are going to need an aquaduct, but that would be after the workers are done building.



Library, after the worker, again cut some forest to further it along.
I guess I'm not in the tree loving party, am I?



Library here now, need the culture against the Babies, then go back to the worker.



The worker will be done soon, but I think the shields ought to go to a library, then a worker to clear that jungle. A harbor here might be good, but I'm not sure yet.

My Hometown

I the tradition of politicians I'm going to insist this town get better projects and unnecessary improvements

Library, to grab that coast, and a harbor, but this would also be good to get a few workers out before the harbor.




Person #7 is going to want to riot, could we switch to mountains and keep it at six until some improvements complete, Market, library, and this might be worth a temple, just because the 1gpt maintenace allows a size 7 and saves 4gpt on unit support.



Market and library, then a courthouse, this place needs to grow. Maybe some workers from the higher food towns.



We need one more citizen here, a worker from one of the other towns, it's inefficent to wait for the person to "grow"



Library, kill those trees, then more workers or units. market is possibe but unlikely.



Library, A market or units after this will need an aquaduct eventually, but not too soon.



These obsevations are subject to change as situation developes, but I think we're in a place that we can actually pick up from where we were planning about 60 turns ago, before the Babies made clear their plans to attack. Talk about telegraphing your moves.

I hope this doesn't of Chamnix. I know I'm probably going to be wrong on some of these.

Next post I want to get into the sliders, I didn't really start that yet. I wanted to get to know my way around our island this way, then get into settings.

 

[Chamnix]

Great to have some discussion on this! The electorate seems to have made a good choice. Some general comments first before I reply to specifics...

Note that Marsden only has access to the "pre-play" save, so some of those citizens have been moved. In most cases, it doesn't make much difference at all - just a quick glance through, and the only think I think is worth mentioning is that Karabela is not working a coastal tile - it is still running at +2 fpt.

I disagree in principle with building libraries in corrupt towns. I don't think a town like Caladbolg should ever have a library. It will drain 1 gpt from our treasury and will not be likely to produce any significant beakers due to corruption. Note that it also will not have any impact on the chances of Caladbolg flipping other than the fact that it adds to our national culture (but there are much better spots to do that). It slightly increases the chances of Lucious Jackson flipping to us by claiming more tiles in its fat cross, but I think the price of a library in a corrupt town is not worth the minimal increase in flip chances.

I'm also not sure about building courthouses in first ring towns like Georgetown and Katana. I certainly wouldn't prioritize them - libraries, markets, and harbors should come first. When it comes down to a decision between courthouses and "movable shields" (units to be disbanded), then we can see how valuable a courthouse would be.

Specifics:

Baldric - I would love to increase the size of this town as well, but you mention taking tiles from Katana. Until Katana gets a cultural expansion/harbor, I'm not sure what it can give up without starving. Long-term, I think once Georgetown has its buildings, then it will work coast instead of mountains, and Katana can have the fish. Do you have something different in mind that can be done sooner?

Bayonet, Calalbolg, Catclaw, Dirk, and Kris are all too corrupt for any buildings for my tastes. FYI, regarding Caladbolg:

If we stop this worker and put the next citizen on the iron would we manage a second uncorrupted sheild?

We would not - you can tell by looking at the commerce. 4 of out 5 commerce is corrupt, so even if we got to 5 shields gross, 4 of them would still be corrupt (you also are allowed to move citizens in the save if you want since that is a "reversible" change - you just can't do anything you would not be able to undo if you were playing the turn).

Caliburnus -

Can we get a few more workers here, then start the aquaduct?

We can do that if you wish .

Damocles Sword -

A library here, could the forrests be chopped or will we need them later?

Forests can be chopped there if you want a library now.

Estoc (currently building curragh) -

Change to library and then harbor, would a courthouse benefit us here? I think so.

I would probably change the order here. A library will not be very helpful until it has a harbor to grow a bit. A courthouse will definitely be helpful, but I might be inclined to build an aqueduct before that.

Karabela -

A harbor, then library and market, eventually needs aquaduct.

Once it gets a harbor, then I think an aqueduct will probably need to be started before the library/market.

Are we going to settle on the pennisula north east of Mos Eisley? We have a settler.

We settled a town there last turn.

 

[greekguy]

Finally, a government official using something other than the default Firaxis graphics. My eyes thank you, my eyes thank you Marsden! *cries tears of joy*

oh, btw, nice job with your first post. If I have something useful to say (which is not often in this department) I'll make sure to post.

 

[Chamnix]

Now I can comment on the edited in portions of post #2 .

I hope this doesn't of Chamnix. I know I'm probably going to be wrong on some of these.

There's no "wrong" in civ - just a matter of tradeoffs. I may disagree on your priorities at times, but there is no wrong way to play. Besides, other than your love for libraries everywhere, I really like most of your ideas. I wouldn't build nearly as many libraries, but I'm going to have to adjust to the fact that this will be a builder's game for a while, so hopefully we can find some happy medium .

After Katana finishes it's Market, I'd like a tile or two to the capital from there and let Katana have more sea tiles, except I'd missed that Katana doesn't have a harbor yet, so that needs to be in place first

I'll do you one better - we don't even have Map Making yet (although we have the money to buy it as soon as the Chief Ambassador decides the timing is right).

Rapier -

After the Market finishes, start library and then courthouse. Maybe the forests can be cut and replanted.

Certainly at some point, but I am very reluctant to cut forest on tundra until we have Engineering. If we don't get it as our free tech, then I don't think we will be able to get it from the Council until the Great Library is neutralized.

Woundhealer -

Person #7 is going to want to riot, could we switch to mountains and keep it at six until some improvements complete,

I think person 7 will be OK - we should only need 12 uncorrupted gold to keep him happy, and the extra gold from the center tile plus the tile worked by the 7th citizen should provide that. Regardless, we would be better off letting it grow to size 7 for the extra unit support and hiring a specialist than keeping it at 6.

Yanagiba -

this place needs to grow. Maybe some workers from the higher food towns.

That is one of the towns that had a citizen move - it is at +3 fpt so will be size 2 next turn. From there it could be +4 fpt until size 3, then +5 fpt up to size 7. I'm usually not an advocate of adding workers to towns that are below size 7 - I prefer building them below then adding them above, but that could just be a weakness in my game.

However, I do have to say that with all the corrupt towns you are proposing to change from workers to libraries (which will take forever to build), I don't think we will have sufficient workers to add to a town like this.

Yatagan -

We need one more citizen here, a worker from one of the other towns, it's inefficent to wait for the person to "grow"

Good catch - I'll try to find a worker to add here ASAP.

 

[dutchfire]

(although we have the money to buy it as soon as the Chief Ambassador decides the timing is right).

The General is online right now, if you want to, I can ask to get the techs next turn.

 

[Chamnix]

That's your call - I just worry about how it looks from their perspective. Here we are telling them we still want 20 gpt to fight off Babe, but we have 400 gold sitting around to blow on techs that aren't immediately useful .

 

[Marsden]

My main purpose of library saturation is to make sure we actually benefit from the territory which is naturally ours. IOW, claim all those coast and sea squares. Some of the towns facing the north coast, I also want them there to put pressure on the baby incursions, although I don't have any hope of actually flipping their towns I certainly don't want any of ours to flip to them, which would put quite the kink in our current blockade plans. They would automatically have a pikeman in the town, and I don't know if we'd have the units to take it back immediately before they empty 2 or 3 boats of units in it. BTW, in multiplayer, does the flip happen on the flipper's turn or the flippee's? I know that was worded poorly, but I think you understand my meaning.

Anyway, I'd still prefer having and keeping a library in each town, and bear in mind just a library I'm not suggesting a 100k type approach to building culture, but how about building all the libraries and after 4 turns selling the ones that aren't useful. We still keep the expansion but won't need to pay the library maintenece. Feasable?

 

[Chamnix]

The towns near our core, we certainly need the cultural expansion to have enough tiles to work. In the corrupt areas, I don't think those towns will ever get large enough to work sea tiles. The luxury slider will not help them, so how will we keep them happy? To work those tiles, you are also talking about a harbor - another 60 shields and 1 gpt.

As far as flipping goes, it is based on overall culture and not culture in the immediately surrounding towns. Libraries in our core help as much and have the added benefit of actually providing beakers.

Even selling the library after 4 turns, using 40 shields on a library to me means the library cost us 4 workers - I would much rather have the workers.

I can't answer your question about when the flip occurs as it has never happened to me, but my guess would be that it would be on the turn of the civ that is taking over the town so they get a choice whether to accept or not. I seem to remember there was a time last game when a Doughnut town flipped to KISS. If I have some time later, maybe I'll try to find the saves where that happened so we know for sure.

 

[Chamnix]

Will you be posting official orders? It looks like the only thing that requires attention this turn is if you don't want the worker in Vorpal to complete. I've already posted my opinions on libraries vs. workers in corrupt towns, but the rest of the team has been silent, and I will follow whatever orders you give me.

Of course, even for the things that don't need attention this turn, the sooner you can let me know what your final decisions will be, the better, since I like to plan worker turns well in advance to make sure appropriate tiles are improved for what we are building.

 

[greekguy]

I'd say switch to a library in Vorpal, and I probably favor more libraries (in general) than Chamnix wants, but less than want our new Chief Bean Counter proposes. Seeing as this game is gonna be peaceful for awhile now, it seems that most of our towns will get a good deal of infrastructure built up anyway, it just a question of when.

 

[Chamnix]

it seems that most of our towns will get a good deal of infrastructure built up anyway, it just a question of when.

Our core towns certainly, but Vorpal? We are talking 90% corrupt. The library will most likely never provide a single extra beaker. I think it is builds like that that are the reason many players end up with too few workers - that type of town can provide a steady flow of workers that are actually useful instead of a cash draining white elephant.

But I should shut up - all I'm doing is repeating myself, and I am just one member of the team.

Interestingly enough, the Go-Go's has just had a cultural expansion, so Babe must have rushed a temple there.



I don't really see that doing them a lot of good...

 

[Chamnix]

Wakizashi will finish its curragh in 1 turn also - should that be changed to something else?

 

[Marsden]

I typed an answer about 4 hours ago but apparently I forgot to hit "post" so.... anyway.


I don't think 30 gpt on libraries is too dramatic a drain on the economy, especially compared to the 20 gpt turn were planning on spending anyway on libraries just where we want them. I also specifically want their culture for our nation. I mentioned selling some after the expansion as a compromise offer, but that is probably worse than not building them, so I'll ask to have 1 library per town. That's it though, I have no misconceptions about a blank in every town, but I want our overall culture to be better, especially compared to BaBe. I have no notion of catching upto gong, nor desire to do so. But in this current situation, I think we will benefit from the expanded borders that culture gives, even if we can actually use the tiles atl least we can own them. And Vorpal is right against their border, I'd like to push it back, or at least keep it from coming closer to us. Right after the library finishes you can build as many workers as you like there.

And finally, I don't want any misunderstanding, I'm not ordering anyone around, I'm just voicing my opion like I've always done I'm just trying to make it a more informed opinion.

 

[Chamnix]

Continuing my long tradition of triple posts... (EDIT - too slow! X-posted with Marsden.)

If we are really concerned about culture, Katana could be changed to library from market this turn. The earlier cultural expansion giving us more citizens may be worth close to as much as a marketplace anyway. Of course, we only get the extra citizens if we have a steady stream of workers to add from somewhere .

Elear could also be changed, but that doesn't have to be until next turn, and that would purely be for culture since the expansion there is meaningless.

 

[Marsden]

Wakizashi will finish its curragh in 1 turn also - should that be changed to something else?

I thought we were done with boats until the middle ages? Change to libary, please.

 

[Marsden]

We need a X-post smilie!

Then switch Katana now, I just didn't want to say no marketplace there.

I just like to say I'm particularly annoyed we only have 2 lux, as a 3rd would make the markets that much more useful. Ok, I'm done ranting for now.

 

[Chamnix]

And Vorpal is right against their border, I'd like to push it back, or at least keep it from coming closer to us.

Neither will happen. No matter how much or how little culture we have in Vorpal, the border between Vorpal and the Go-Go's will never move.

And finally, I don't want any misunderstanding, I'm not ordering anyone around, I'm just voicing my opion like I've always done I'm just trying to make it a more informed opinion.

Unfortunately, you don't have that luxury anymore - someone has to make the decisions, and you are the Bean Counter and the last word on such matters. Under the Constitution, the Sultan must obey the Bean Counter on matters the Bean Counter controls (although I suppose you could claim you are not the Bean Counter until next turn, but in general everyone on the team should express his opinion, and then ultimately it is your call).

 

[Bartleby]

Just to add my €0.02, even if a little late. I would go with workers in corrupt towns, unless a Library would get us (or get back) fat-x tiles. The town due east of the Go-Go's (the one with a chariot blocking its name) will be able to snag back tile 19 (assuming it is a Temple they have built, and don't intend to add a Library).

 

[Chamnix]

The town due east of the Go-Go's (the one with a chariot blocking its name) will be able to snag back tile 19 (assuming it is a Temple they have built, and don't intend to add a Library).

Well, yes, but it will take 32 turns to build a library there at which point they will have 74 culture in the Go-Go's, and we will be gaining on them at a rate of 1 cpt. And then the temple will start providing 4 cpt. The game will be over before we get that tile back.

We could rush the library there, but 120 gold plus 1 gpt to eventually gain 1 tile that we will never even use? I think there are better uses for our resources.