Minor Leaders as Major Leaders in Fall From Heaven

Just finished a game and was GREAT experience!
Here are my observations and questions:

(Hippus - Monarch - PerfectWorld Small - Quick - Start in Old World - 9 random opponents - Notechbrokering - Raging Barbs)

First exactly what are the AI bonus for Monarch level ? Ai did ok but it seemed strange they had an unlimited supply of units level 4-5-6, in my continuous wars i did encounter more than a few of superelite opponents even though that particular civilization had been quiet before and not involved in major wars vs others civs.

-Hyborean never appeared though it was adopted as a state religion by 2

-Ai did a GREAT job techwise and improvement wise, they've beated me to some wonder, had a great military and provided a good challenge..actually if i hadnt magnadine and knights early on i'd be in serious trouble

-I had very little magic opposition, ai did have some mage but didnt seem to use them aggressively. Just a couple maelstrom in all games, not a single fireball.

-New world got completely ignored. Ok barbs were all over the place and reach it has been a pain but maybe you should consider prioritizing it?
I think the problem is that in this game there are a great many barbs navy in the ocean and trying to reach the new world means 2-3 fight at least :p Maybe the ai did try to colonize but get continuously killed in the attempt?
Interesting enough the only colony in the new world is the last remaining of Furia the Mad :)

-Religion didnt spread much, especially the undercouncil

-I dig grab some terrain from an elf, the forest tiles become "New Forests" and i couldnt build lumbermills on them

All in all it was a great experience, did some stupid mistake due for not playing for long next time i'll try at higher level :)


I attach my last savegame, having just basically crushed my latest strong opponents and having double or more the city of all others is no longer fun. However is someone wants to have fun with late-game tech-wars there may be still lot to do to conquer the other remaining civs :)
 

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acantoni said:
-I had very little magic opposition, ai did have some mage but didnt seem to use them aggressively. Just a couple maelstrom in all games, not a single fireball.
Click to expand...

In my current game I have been watching a war between the lanun and the sheim via a hawk and can say magic diversity is very present. The sheim have been using fireballs, even to scout by sending them on peaks instead of attacking, and specters to intercept units heading towards the under siege lanun city. The Lanun have been answering back with a few kraken summons to control the waterways and maelstroms for crowd control. Pretty interesting stuff to watch.
 
notque said:
I read through issues, and have decided it will be best to change the Religion spread because of popular opinion. I like it, but no else seems to. :)
Click to expand...

Huzzah! :D Hmm... if the intent was to decrease the planned spread of religions, what about just jacking up the cost of Acolyte-type units? Seems like that would accomplish the same goal in a predictable fashion, since that's most of what acolyte-type units are used for anyway. Plus, it'd stop situations where the first adept you get after researching (say) Fellowship fails to spread.

Also, I had an incident in a game last night where I switched over to Basium with Overlords-running Doviello. When I did so, I handed off to the AI a stack of Cultists and Stygian Guards that were right next to a couple of enemy coastal cities. The AI never used Tsunami, however; the stack just sat a couple tiles away, apparently oblivious to the carnage surrounding it (I was attacking with my angels, see). This was right after I suggested to my ally that we attack that particular city. Unrelated: I also noticed that despite the fact that the Infernals hadn't entered the game yet, Basium used his worldspell immediately upon summoning. (The enemy lacked any sort of demonic presence, as well, so this was pretty clearly suboptimal. It mostly hit my Stygian Guards. >_<)

Turinturambar said:
One thing that you might want to put back in however is the forced beeline towards infernal pact after ashen veil gets adopted as a state religion. It's been a hundred turns and Hyborem still has not appeared, even though one or two civs had AV as a state religion.
Click to expand...

I concur. As I see it, Sacrifice the Weak is pretty much the reason one goes for AV; for AI teching purposes, it might be best just to treat CoS and Infernal Pact as a single tech, in that you either go for Infernal Pact or you don't research in the AV line at all. (Actually, I feel the same way about Fellowship of the Leaves + Hidden Paths-- you just don't go Fellowship without researching HP due to the excellent health/happiness bonuses.)

Notque said:
I.E., I have to build Fall Further minor leaders. That's the next move after bug fixes.
Click to expand...

Definitely looking forward to that. I especially love the new XML fields-- those'll be a lot of fun when it comes time to build unique traits. :D
 
notque said:
I read through issues, and have decided it will be best to change the Religion spread because of popular opinion. I like it, but no else seems to. :)
Click to expand...

My frustration was that it's pretty much exclusive to the early game, where every hammer and beaker counts. Once I reach the mid game, I have forges available, and I'm spreading religion by having priests found temples. But in the early game, 120 hammers for a temple and 60 hammers for each disciple is an opportunity cost of about 7 warriors (at 25 hammers each). That's a warrior rush. If I've given up a warrior rush to have a better religious foothold in the midgame, I don't want to lose those disciples without seeing some return.

On the other hand, your system makes priesthood a much more valuable tech. If I take the opportunity cost in beakers to found a religion, it's probably worth following up and going to priesthood, which wasn't really necessary in base FFH.

Of course, the other frustration is that you may get beaten to your religion of preference, and only get a disciple. If that disciple fails to spread the religion, your research was virtually wasted. Thinking from a risk/reward payoff matrix, it's no longer worth researching a religion that hasn't already spread to your cities unless you can be the founder.

I really disliked your system the first time, primarily because I was used to the payoff matrix of base FFH, but knowing what I now know, I think I could work with it.

Your AI is much less gimped than the original, but I am curious how well it understands the new system. Does it waste hammers spamming disciples, or is there a soft beeline to priesthood if it founds a religion?
 
Gwythur said:
My frustration was that it's pretty much exclusive to the early game, where every hammer and beaker counts. Once I reach the mid game, I have forges available, and I'm spreading religion by having priests found temples. But in the early game, 120 hammers for a temple and 60 hammers for each disciple is an opportunity cost of about 7 warriors (at 25 hammers each). That's a warrior rush. If I've given up a warrior rush to have a better religious foothold in the midgame, I don't want to lose those disciples without seeing some return.

On the other hand, your system makes priesthood a much more valuable tech. If I take the opportunity cost in beakers to found a religion, it's probably worth following up and going to priesthood, which wasn't really necessary in base FFH.

Of course, the other frustration is that you may get beaten to your religion of preference, and only get a disciple. If that disciple fails to spread the religion, your research was virtually wasted. Thinking from a risk/reward payoff matrix, it's no longer worth researching a religion that hasn't already spread to your cities unless you can be the founder.

I really disliked your system the first time, primarily because I was used to the payoff matrix of base FFH, but knowing what I now know, I think I could work with it.

Your AI is much less gimped than the original, but I am curious how well it understands the new system. Does it waste hammers spamming disciples, or is there a soft beeline to priesthood if it founds a religion?
Click to expand...

There's a soft beeline to priesthood, as well as the other techs that are linked to that religion.

Spiritual Ai's have a much, much stronger beeline than non-spirtual. That was what I did, and people seem to dislike it, at least for AV.

I thought, if you are a spiritual AI, you should go after the religiously linked techs hard. Otherwise, you should do what it is that you do, and occasionally go after the next religious tech you need.
 
notque said:
Make sense? Help me out, you get more leaders, more traits, and more trait specific promotions. Provide music clips for leaders, you get more diplo music.
Click to expand...

TOTALLY calling your bluff. ;) I added a few unique traits in my modmodmod, and figured I'd post them here. I've only got two really fun ones so far-- here they are! (Erm, I notice that this site doesn't do tabs very well. Is there a preferred format re: notepad or notepad ++?)

FIRST! I gave Lorelei the Hydromancer trait, which grants all Adept-class units the Water Mastery promotion and Water I. Water Mastery grants +1 movement, +40% combat bonus on water tiles, and water walking. It also grants the same bonus to all summoned units. This opens the door to all sorts of hilarious shenanigans midgame, when your stacks and stacks of fast-moving water-walking heavily-buffed skeletons suicide themselves against enemy ships whilst your wizards stand off in the coast, guarded from any sort of assassin-type retaliation as they blast away at coastal fortifications using their water-walking summoned units. Good times. (Note: the +40% combat bonus on water is to compensate for the fact that naval units are much beefier than their land-based counterparts.) The Water I and effective Mobility promotions are primarily to give this trait some use on land, although intercontinental warfare are obviously where it shines.

Spoiler :
Code: 
       <PromotionInfo>
            <Type>PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</Description>
            <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
            <TechPrereq>TECH_NEVER</TechPrereq>
            <iMovesChange>1</iMovesChange>
            <TerrainAttacks>
                <TerrainAttack>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_OCEAN</TerrainType>
                    <iTerrainAttack>40</iTerrainAttack>
                </TerrainAttack>
                <TerrainAttack>
                   <TerrainType>TERRAIN_COAST</TerrainType>
                   <iTerrainAttack>40</iTerrainAttack>
		</TerrainAttack>
	   </TerrainAttacks>
           <TerrainDefenses>
               <TerrainDefense>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_OCEAN</TerrainType>
                    <iTerrainDefense>40</iTerrainDefense>
               </TerrainDefense>
               <TerrainDefense>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_COAST</TerrainType>
                    <iTerrainDefense>40</iTerrainDefense>
               </TerrainDefense>
         </TerrainDefenses>
            <Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Waterwalking.dds</Button>
            <bWaterWalking>1</bWaterWalking>
            <PromotionSummonPerk>PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</PromotionSummonPerk>
      </PromotionInfo>
		

	
		<TraitInfo>
			<Type>TRAIT_HYDROMANCER</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER</Description>
			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER_SHORT</ShortDescription>
			<Help/>
			<iHealth>0</iHealth>
			<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
			<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
			<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
			<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
			<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
			<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
			<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
			<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
			<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
			<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
			<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
			<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
			<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
			<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
			<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
			<bInsane>0</bInsane>
			<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
			<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
			<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
			<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
			<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
			<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
			<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
			<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
			<ExtraYieldThresholds/>
			<TradeYieldModifiers/>
			<CommerceChanges>
			</CommerceChanges>
			<CommerceModifiers/>
			<FreePromotions>
				<FreePromotion>
					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</PromotionType>
					<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
				</FreePromotion>
				<FreePromotion>
					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_WATER1</PromotionType>
					<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
				</FreePromotion>
			</FreePromotions>
			<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
				<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
					<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
				</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
			</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
		</TraitInfo>

    <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER</Tag>
        <English>Hydromancer</English>
        <French>Hydromancer</French>
        <German>Hydromancer</German>
        <Italian>Hydromancer</Italian>
        <Spanish>Hydromancer</Spanish>
    </TEXT>
	
    <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER_SHORT</Tag>
        <English>Hyd</English>
        <French>Hyd</French>
        <German>Hyd</German>
        <Italian>Hyd</Italian>
        <Spanish>Hyd</Spanish>
    </TEXT>
	
   <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</Tag>
        <English>Water Mastery</English>
        <French>Water Mastery</French>
        <German>Water Mastery</German>
        <Italian>Water Mastery</Italian>
        <Spanish>Water Mastery</Spanish>
    </TEXT>

SECOND! I gave Emma the Territorial trait, granting (1) the Expanded Hull, Mobility 1, and Weak promotions to all naval units; and (2) +2 gold in all cities. (I originally had it at +2 gold, +1 science, but on reflection I toned it down.) It's actually quite fun to play with, since it means that Emma can afford to expand very quickly relative to normal Doviello, especially off-coast. Like all good Doviello traits, this one's effectiveness dies off quickly mid-endgame, by which point you should have a solid empire.

Spoiler :
Code: 
	<TraitInfo>
			<Type>TRAIT_TERRITORIAL</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_TERRITORIAL</Description>
			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_TERRITORIAL_SHORT</ShortDescription>
			<Help/>
			<iHealth>0</iHealth>
			<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
			<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
			<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
			<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
			<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
			<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
			<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
			<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
			<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
			<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
			<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
			<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
			<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
			<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
			<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
			<bInsane>0</bInsane>
			<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
			<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
			<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
			<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
			<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
			<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
			<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
			<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
			<ExtraYieldThresholds/>
			<TradeYieldModifiers/>
			<CommerceChanges>
				<iCommerce>2</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
			</CommerceChanges>
			<CommerceModifiers/>
			<FreePromotions>
				<FreePromotion>
					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_EXPANDED_HULL</PromotionType>
					<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
				</FreePromotion>
				<FreePromotion>
					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_WEAK</PromotionType>
					<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
				</FreePromotion>
				<FreePromotion>
					<PromotionType>PROMOTION_MOBILITY1</PromotionType>
					<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
				</FreePromotion>
			</FreePromotions>
			<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
				<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL</UnitCombatType>
					<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
				</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
			</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
		</TraitInfo>
		
     <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_TERRITORIAL</Tag>
        <English>Territorial</English>
        <French>Territorial</French>
        <German>Territorial</German>
        <Italian>Territorial</Italian>
        <Spanish>Territorial</Spanish>
    </TEXT>
	
    <TEXT>
        <Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_TERRITORIAL_SHORT</Tag>
        <English>Trr</English>
        <French>Trr</French>
        <German>Trr</German>
        <Italian>Trr</Italian>
        <Spanish>Trr</Spanish>
    </TEXT>


I've got a couple of others that need tuning up. The third is going to be one for Malchavic, I'm thinking, which grants all summoned units the Diseased promotion and a +30% combat bonus to keep their combat effectiveness constant (trait is called "Plaguelord"). But I need some way to work the ACTUAL "plagued" promo in there somehow in a not-overpowered fashion... Anyway, hopefully you can use one of these.

EDIT: Thanks, snarko!
 
25Hour said:
(Erm, I notice that this site doesn't do tabs very well. Is there a preferred format re: notepad or notepad ++?)
Click to expand...

Use [code][/code] tags to keep spaces/tabs the same. You can do it inside spoilers if it's long.
 
Spoiler :


I found this to be rather strange. Granted we are at highly friendly status and I don't have gunpowder. But when i asked him which of my resources he wanted, he just offered to give it to me o_0
 
DioAurion said:
Spoiler :


I found this to be rather strange. Granted we are at highly friendly status and I don't have gunpowder. But when i asked him which of my resources he wanted, he just offered to give it to me o_0
Click to expand...

The base BTS code is jacked when it comes to Diplomacy. It used to always only consider you the same relations. It never put them into question.

Now that it does take relations into account, you are going to get positive results from friendly players.
 
mmm once again these AI improvements not only make the AI act more intelligently, but make them seem more human. Very cool. Think I'll check into Snarko's page and see all the changes he made so I know what is a bug and what is a new feature.
 
Hey, love the mod. A few observations from my last game. Playing Svartalfar, Emperor difficulty. Huge tectonics map, 18 AI civs.


1. I encountered the Kuriotates on turn 289. Their city spacing was a bit wonky...but they were a relatively healthy civ. For some reason they had never researched Horseback Riding. No centaurs whatsoever. Very odd.

2. Played to turn 300. No infernals. 3 AV state civs.

3. Buboes behaved oddly. When he spawned he took one city (from my vassal)...and then chilled out by the river until I came and killed him. Never used his spell, didn't rampage through my vassal (which he could have done easily).
 
Hello Notque. I just have one comment.
I think that the installer of your mod should let to choose FF2 directory. Although it's not something vital, it would really easen the life for those who don't have Civ 4 in the same directory they installed it.
 
I can confirm the "no Hyborem" bug. I'm playing my current game with some of Notque's python tweaks and his *.dll. and I've verified in the WB that Hyborem didn't make his appearance despite AV Faeryl researching the Infernal Pact long ago.
 
Here are two file links to help recreate the hyborem problem. I was testing out AI auto play for my first time and the no hyborem problem occurred. I attached these 2 files if you would like to recreate the problem or analyze it. The 650 attachment is roughly 10 turns after Avarax researched infernal pact. The other file is about 100 turns before it as stated in the name.
 

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I've been lurking on the development of this mod for months, and I want to congratulate you on how great it's coming out, Notque. I cannot wait for the FF merge. And if Revolution is ever included... *shivers*

But I digress. I am posting to ask a question about one of the original concepts of this mod: Minor leaders gaining more than two traits. Originally, I believe, the plan was for Minor leaders to gain the "Learning" trait when they had a second trait, and lose that when they gained their third. "Learning" was supposed to have half(?) the penalties of Minor, and, excepting certain Leaders with powerful combinations that needed extra traits (like Weak), traits would be capped a 3.

Currently, as I understand it, I can also expect to gain a third trait once every five games, or so, though I'm not quite sure exactly how this process works, and what traits can be gained in concert.

I, personally, like the idea of having leaders with three hand-picked traits, though I readily concede how over-powered this could be, especially with certain combinations in the early and middle game (agg/chm/rai comes to mind).

That's why I wonder if you would consider implementing the following solution for those of us who want to make a truly "perfect" leader?:

After a leader completes a feat that would normally result in gaining a seond trait, allow for the following three options:
1.) Reject the trait.
2.) Accept the trait.
3.) Gain the "Disatisfied" trait in addition to the normal trait. Disatisfied bestows double the penalties of Minor, but allows for a third trait to be gained. After the third trait is gained, lose "Disatisfied".

Two other possiblities:
1.) "Disatisfied" only gives the same penalties as Minor, but sticks with you even after you adopt a third trait.
2.) Allow for "half-traits". I.E., option 3 after you eliminate another civ allows you to gain "half-trait" "Aggressive", gives all units 10% combat strength instead of 20%. "Expansive" 1/2 trait gives 2+ health, 50%+ Settler production. etc.

Just my two cents. Mind you, I am thoroughly impressed by this mod, anyway, especially as far as the AI work is concerned. Thank you for sharing your work with the community.
 
what do i have to do to make the mod work???

i installed it and get loads of xml errors. do i have to do sth special? i downloaded the attached file in post 1 and installed it as mentioned but it wont start.:confused:

pls help me

problem solved while installing the mod the 5th time ;)
 
Notque you seem quite silent lately, i guess for work being done in fall further
I just wanted to ask if there are any plans of minor mod mod for patch Z or if you are abandoning this and dedicating yourself fully to improve ai in FallFurther (which really needs it!)

Thanks for your time and effort
 
Hi, I really like the AI improvements this Mod makes. I understand that it was for patch Y, but can I use it for Z without everything exploding?
 
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