Minor Leaders

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, May 30, 2009.

  1. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Yeah, as always, I'm forgetting the human player :lol: Well, I did nothing for now. I will just do the change to include the Nascents leaders and tweak Minor after. BTW, I think it would be neat to not choose the same name. So, you go for Emergent, I go for Nascent?

    :lol: I think I'll create one for one of the FF civs :D
     
  2. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Sounds good. :lol: I wouldn't mind dropping Emergent for some other title, but the only thing I can think of is Budding... Not gonna work for most leaders. :lol:
     
  3. far_wanderer

    far_wanderer Prince

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    I would suggest a slight reversal: drop the minor trait from Emergent leaders, rather than Minor leaders. First of all, it will make a lot more sense at first glance, and secondly because it will make balance and design a lot easier. You have Minor leaders, who use fairly normal traits and to someone who isn't already aware of the lore would probably be indistinguishable from the major leaders. Having the Minor trait is a good way to give them something unique and a feature that ties them together. Then, you have Emergent leaders, who by definition do completely new and unique things. Why should they also get the advantage of variability? If you drop minor from them, then you no longer have to worry about specific trait combination that might end up being overpowered, because you can give them something balanced from the start.

    EDIT: Upon looking further at the changed list, I have three additional points:
    1 - You do realize that going with a base of 2 traits plus minor makes the Minor leaders significantly better than most Major leaders, right? Three traits is only standard for Agnostic leaders.
    2 - Herne and Utiruso. Protective doesn't really seem to be on par with the other Emergent leader traits, in either power or uniqueness. I'd suggest those two be minor leaders.
    3 - Maer. Magic Defense is a really tiny advantage for a Mechanos leader.
     
  4. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    My preliminary Idea for an Elohim Leader. I don't have aleaderhead or anything, but thats mostly because I don't know where to look. Any ideas?

    Based off of the Blank Banner, a story by Killerclowns

    Spoiler :
    Name: Telias Re’len
    Civ: Elohim
    Aligment: Good, Possibly neutral
    Traits: Raider, Unrecognized*, Minor?
    Unrecognized-All units-Blank Banner
    Empty Banner-20% chance of units getting any race, including Werewolf and Vampire (wrewolfmight be to powerful know). Enable Black Ops at level 5
    Black ops-Requires: Lvl 5. Allows units to become Hidden Nationality

    Lore: The leader of the Blank Banner, Telias Re’len is who the Elohim leaders call if they need a task done, and done well. The Blank Banner is made up of people of every race, the only entry conditions are a desire to fight Evil, and acceptance that they will never be famous, for the Blank Banner is completely Unrecognized by those very same leaders that use them. Telias is a master strategist, and an expert at wars a attrition and sabotage.
     
  5. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Hmm... I see your point, but I want them to have some variability. I could write them a new trait, which limits what each leader can gain... But that's exactly what Opera is doing, and I'd rather not steal it. For now, I think I'll keep it the way I outlined it.

    1. I'm either removing Minor from them (At least, as it is now... Maybe leave the name and penalty, but make it unable to gain new traits?), or adding another trait to all major leaders. Right now, I think the first option is best.
    2. I agree, mostly. Herne I'm not sure what to do with... Ultirisu will get a better trait.
    3. It's supposed to be actually. She's not an emergent leader, so I added another weak trait to match the strong/weak she already had.

    @Darksaber - I use the sites Kael links to in the credits thread. Very good art, and it's generally in the same style as the other leaders.

    As for the leader, I like it. :goodjob: Werewolves and Vamps I'm not sure about including... Or Demons, for that matter. Would the Elohim allow them to fight in their army? Better yet, would they allow themselves? Need to read the Blank Banner I think... Easy enough to code, though.
     
  6. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Okay, I'll look at those art sites.
     
  7. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Emperor

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    For your convenience, the story Darksaber1 is referring to. (Originally written to silence complaints about the Elohim getting Tolerant; it worked pretty well from what I saw. So you're gonna want to make sure this leader gets tolerant/conquerer.) Anyhow, I'm off to do evil deeds, but once I'm sober and have recovered from the hangover I'm sure to receive, I'll skim this thread for my various proposals, and re-mention them after finding art to save you the trouble. Yeah, I like it when my ideas are used/referenced. Nice little ego boost. :p Use or don't as you will.
    EDIT: Oh, whatever else you do with Darksaber1's idea, I'd advise banning werewolves (too powerful) centaurs (unless you make the Centaur race automatically grant mounted unit type) and frostlings (their racially gained +1 cold combat might be a bit unbalancing). Allow angels, undead (Scion refugees, et cetera), elves, dwarves, orcs, lizardmen, maybe demons, and very arguably, giantkin.
     
  8. cypher132

    cypher132 Emperor

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    Here, just so you can understand how caring and nurturing Corane is, is a story.



    Spoiler :
    Corane paced back and forth in front of the prisoner. He looked the man over and was disgusted by what he saw. His hair was dirty and knotted. His clothes looked like patchwork and his skin was dirty enough to make even slaves cringe. The man was caught sneaking through the fortress walls with bundles of military papers. He was beaten and promptly brought to Corane for questioning. "You've come all this way. Traveled the great mountains. Gone through the haunted forest. All to try to spy on us. Tell me. What is it that you have come for?"
    The prisoner merely looked down, staunchly remaining quiet. "Very well, then. Agnir, show him what happens when prisoners do not comply." A rather gruff looking Archosian nodded and grabbed one of the prisoner's hands. He held it to the ground and pulled out a wicked-looking knife. The prisoner screamed as his fingers were sliced through with the knife. He fell to the ground, clutching his now fingerless hand, sobbing and crying to Junil. "Now. Will you tell me why you have come all this way?"
    The prisoner merely spat on Corane's shoes and cursed Mother. "You dare insult Mother, you ingrate!?" Corane smacked the prisoner across the face. "Nobody, and I repeat, nobody insults Mother. Cut off his other fingers." The prisoner screamed and protested as the guards held his other hand to the ground. He screamed even louder as Agnir sliced the fingers off his hand. Corane grabbed the prisoner by the hair and held him up to look him in the eye. "Now tell me! Who are you!? Where did you come from!? Why are you here?"
    The prisoner sobbed slightly and held his now mangled hands close to his chest. "I...I was sent to spy on you. Learn your tactics, but that's all I know." Corane nodded silently then kicked the prisoner in the stomach. "Tell me all of it! All the truth!" The prisoner began openly sobbing and crying hysterically. "I was to learn your military formations and your resources! I was to learn your plans and report them to my master! I was to find weaknesses in your defenses! I swear that's all I know!" As he finished yelling he curled up on the stone floor, which was slowly becoming stained with his blood.
    Corane held his hands behind his back and bent over to speak to the prisoner. "And who, might I ask, is your master? Or must we sever..Other things?" The prisoner screamed at this and yelled "Capria! Capria! It was Capria, I swear!" Corane stood up looking satisfied and turned to Agnir. "Have our scribes recorded this session?" Agnir nodded and grabbed a chart from a nearby Archosian. "The whole thing. The questioning, commission of guilt, everything." Agnir looked up at Corane. "What shall we put as his sentence, milord?"
    Corane looked at the whimpering man before him. "Throw him to the spiders. I am sure Mother is hungry and wishes for a more..Exotic meal." With that, Corane strode into his throne room and closed the doors behind him. Agnir and some fellow soldiers lifted the sobbing wreck and threw him into a dark hole. Amongst the screams of agony, you could hear the hissing of creatures and the sound of their many legs converging on their screaming meal.



    It makes you all tingly inside.
     
  9. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Slight changes... Minor has been split into two traits.

    Minor- -5% Culture. Granted to all Minor Leaders.
    Emergent - Allows new traits to be gained as you play. Granted to all Emergent leaders.

    Minor leaders will no longer gain new traits.

    Herne has been moved to Minor... He is now Defender/Expansive. Defender and Protective were merged a while back, I just forgot to update the posts. :lol:

    Still not sure what to do with Ultirisu... Want to leave him as Emergent, but I need a good trait for him.

    Reordered the new/changed trait list... Alphabetical, makes it easier to search.

    Updated Corane's pedia text.
     
  10. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Moved the list of requirements for new leaders to the fourth post... Also added a diplotext template, from icarussc's post in Opera's thread. Optional, like with the lore, but helpful. Usually pretty easy to fill out too, thanks to Opera's work assembling it. :lol:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8125856&postcount=4

    Edit: Corane now has diplotext.
     
  11. cypher132

    cypher132 Emperor

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    So, where's Corane on the front page, eh? :D
     
  12. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    You ought to be able to lose the Minor trait though. Maybe at the end of your first Golden Age or after destroying a rival Civ.
     
  13. Machiosabre

    Machiosabre Chieftain

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    i thought the whole fun of minor leaders was the ability to gain traits, it'd be kind of weird to take over the world and still be a 'minor' leader :D
     
  14. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    The leaders that gain traits are called Emergent now. Minors are exactly like the normal leaders, with a small penalty to show that they aren't as important... I don't think 5% culture is a big handicap for a leader with two traits.

    Edit: Corane is under the Archos, in the third post.
     
  15. Machiosabre

    Machiosabre Chieftain

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    yeah i got that, i was just saying that starting out as a minor leader is fine but at some point when you command huge armies and govern giant cities you're hardly a minor leader for your people.
    but it's just semantics I guess.
     
  16. Vermicious Knid

    Vermicious Knid King

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    So...Minor is a pure nerf for lore reasons? :cry:


    I liked the tiered 3 traits for a major/2 + minor for standard minors/1 super trait + minor for "special" leaders system. Did you decide it was too much hassle to go through and add 3rd traits for all the majors?
     
  17. far_wanderer

    far_wanderer Prince

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    It's actually such a small handicap it's almost not worth putting in. I always assumed that the -3% culture was just there because the trait needed a listed effect, not because it was actually supposed to have an effect. I think the only time I would even notice a -5% culture is if I was trying for a culture victory.
    Although it does make Captain Ostanes even more in need of better traits, as he now has a trait for being better at culture and a trait for being worse at culture.
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Honestly, I like that better too. The issue is more which traits aren't overpowering than hassle. Got any suggestions?

    It's there pretty much just to let you differentiate easily between Major and Minor, is all. Plus, I'm sure you need a common trait to latch onto if you want to restrict minors via a gameoption, like Opera did.

    I could easily remove the malus entirely, but I think a small culture loss works for a lesser leader. Could just as well have a maintenance penalty.... Actually, how about this:
    Minor: +5% Maintenance, +25% Distance to Capital Maintenance. (Rationalized as an inexperienced leader, unable to maintain control)

    • Trait is removed upon construction of your fourth city.
    This way, you have relatively harmless penalties early on (How often do you get major Distance penalties before you have 4 cities?), that clearly show the inexperience of the leader.
     
  19. Machiosabre

    Machiosabre Chieftain

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    that does make more sense, so you would end up with normal leaders, normal leaders with a temporary weakness, and leaders you can work to make really good?

    I just wonder if you even need the minor leaders, seems like you could just have normal ones and ones you upgrade, which are basically the old minor leaders.
     
  20. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Pretty much. I could still go the other way and add an extra trait to all Major leaders, letting Minors gain new traits like the Emergent leaders, but it would probably cause a few balance problems.
     

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