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minutia of running se

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DragonKnight, May 2, 2011.

  1. DragonKnight

    DragonKnight Warlord

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    I tried running the specialist economy recently...
    I read some of the guides and all that, and understood the concept...
    But I kept having trouble actually implementing it...

    Like I set my super science city to have all scientists... and had turned of the governor to do it. Yet when I looked back at it later, it had somehow reassigned my specialists... I had less scientists then I had before, and the new specialist had gone to other disciplines...

    So can anyone point me toward any guides or articles on how to best do city management tin an SE... I really don't want to have to page through every city every turn to make sure it hasn't done something stupid...

    And when the game was near done (space ship) for some of my conquered cities I turned on full automation... including what to build... I found it really odd that it built workers... looks of them... every peice of land I had was improved, and railroaded... so why? one city was on an island, and only had 4 tiles... yet built 5 workers in a row... wtf?

    DK
     
  2. ChanceDanger

    ChanceDanger Warlord

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    You could always use the governor and turn on the beaker and great person buttons. This will stop growth completely in caste system so you'll have to manage when you add more food or to the happy cap, but you can go away from it and the governor will automatically put it on scientists until it runs out of slots or food.
     
  3. DragonKnight

    DragonKnight Warlord

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    I tried using the beaker button, thinking it would assign new specialists to science... but that didn't seem to be the case. I didn't think to try the great person button, but from what you say, it will stop any growth, which I could do easily with a one time manual setting and never look at again (until biology at least). So that doesn't seem to be a good alternative...

    DK
     
  4. GGracchus

    GGracchus Tribune of Rome

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    Don't trust the governer. To run a good SE, you want to actually micro. That's why most players initially use a CE: It's much less micro-intensive.
     
  5. ChanceDanger

    ChanceDanger Warlord

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    Well, I just did a little test on a world builder and you're right, the beaker button usually will only turn on scientists when the city is at the happy cap. Even then, if you aren't running caste yet then chances are that the city will still run into unhappiness because you won't be able to train enough specialists to eat all the food. So it's problematic but I think it's better than letting the specalists pile up at random as the city grows and the governor is turned off.

    As for the specialization of cities, if you really only want to check on city once between its founding and biology then that seems to be problematic with the specialist economy. You end up unlocking stuff that's useful to the specialist economy throughout the game, from the obvious (switching the caste system means you want to make sure your cities don't make too many scientists and you stop growing) to the less obvious like opening up spy, engineer and priest slots (which can make a difference if you want to make a specialized production city). In my mind the governor is still the most painless option as opposed to checking your city every time it grows, although you lose some of those bonuses of micromanagement.

    As for the automate production, it's a trash feature and it will lead to incidents like that. Better to take control for yourself. If you don't feel like making units just set them on building wealth or science for the rest of the game and use your home cities for unit production. Or even better, grant them independence and let an AI civ run the show. They will spawn their own units so you can bring the army home and are basically vassals with good attitudes.
     
  6. DragonKnight

    DragonKnight Warlord

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    Okay, so do you literally check every city every turn?

    DK
     
  7. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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  8. DragonKnight

    DragonKnight Warlord

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    Well I didn't say I wanted to check a city only once between founding and biology... But I did want to try to avoid checking it each time it grows... the other things you mention are one time operations triggered by a specific event... when they happen, you go through all your cities and adjust. Growth on the other hand happens every turn in a unknown number of cities, and there is no easy way (that I know of) to cycle through only the cities that grew this turn.

    So really I am looking for any tips that make running the SE less painful...
    But I will also settle for anyone simply saying how they do it... do you check every city every turn for example?

    DK
     
  9. A_Hamster

    A_Hamster Small Furry Animal

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    Try the BUG mod. It has a number of useful messages that makes city management easier, such as "Athens will grow to Size 7 next turn" and "Athens will become unhappy next turn." You'll still have to micro, but at least you won't have to check every turn. Just wait until a warning message like the above shows up at the beginning of the turn, then check the city.

    Still, I usually check my cities about every 3-4 turns until I hit the Happy cap and so can manually set specialists with some assurance that things will remain as I set them. Also, I have become much more free with the use of the whip, so newer cities will be visited frequently (although the BUG mod will also give you similar warning messages regarding cost and overflow for whips).
     
  10. ChanceDanger

    ChanceDanger Warlord

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  11. DragonKnight

    DragonKnight Warlord

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    Yeah, I have the bug mod, and it helps, but if I have too many cities growing in one turn they don't all fit, I would have to go to the log... and I think once I visit one city, the on screen log is gone.

    But okay... wow... every 3-4 turns. Yeah, I can see why people shy away from SE. It becomes more work then play... :(

    DK
     
  12. ChanceDanger

    ChanceDanger Warlord

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    Well, just a thought in favor that although SE does require you to micro manage a few cities (basically your Science city and whatever support Great person you want), you can usually get away with more production cities than a CE which means more warfare. This is more just to insist that the SE can be fun in a non-micro way because you get to more warfare instead of waiting all game for cottages to grow and then have fun buying units late. SE is really strong early (esp. with philosophical leaders) and CE shines late (esp. with financial). Both have tedious parts to them tho
     
  13. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

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    I always do and always did. As far as I know this is the only way to run a SE, or at least is the only way I would play (I'm strongly orientated toward a SE). I wouldn't trust the City Governor for something complex as a SE: a Priest Specialist or a Spy Specialist or a Merchant Specialist for few turns, screwing up a 100% Great Scientist (or a 100% Great Engineer; or even a xx% Great Scientist and xx% Great Engineer) city, is quite an issue in my games. Just my two cents. I might be wrong, and if so I'd like to know the alternative.
    yatta.
     
  14. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I don't know if it is a feature of BUG mode or built-in, but if you have some specs assigned by governor, you can click on the "+" button at scientists and the first click tells the governor to use only scientists specialists.

    you can even direct the exact minimal number of scientist to run and override working the tiles. It's pretty useful trick.

    Especially in early game after your first library you just go in the city once for long time.
     
  15. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

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    I don't know this one. Can you explain it better, please? :)

    If it is the yellow border I know this one but it is about "blocking" the specialist already selected, right? I mean when your city is +2:food: and you are 1 below your :health:/:) cap in Caste System: you want next an Artist, Scientist or Merchant or whatever, can you assign it before the city grows? If not, you have to micro every turn (or memorize the city size the previous turn). I hope this makes sense in English :confused: :crazyeye:

    yatta.
     
  16. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    ^^ as I said I am not sure if this is a function of BUG+BULL mod or not... :)

    for example that yellow border - I don't know what you talk about! :) I saw it on some SS, but never in mine game.

    I will try to explain it better (without SS since I have no access to game right now)...

    let's have an city which has something like 2 food tiles, some hills and nothing more, you already built courthouse, library, temple and are in slavery.
    You slowly grew into size 8, the game at this point (city governor) thinks that running an specialist is actually better to work any of the unimproved tiles (and is right about it!) and automatically chooses Spy (oh I hate him for that!) and for some reason employs Priest (usually happens when you are running low slider and produce something like commerce building).

    You go into the city screen and go "wtf??!!" and tell yourself "I hate you!".
    Now the first reaction is to turn off governor and just check each turn the city to be sure that's everything alright.

    But there is alternate method, when you click on the "+" button next to the scientist, but only once! Now the governor finally sees the light and switches the spy and priest into 2 scientists as you always wanted.
    From then on everytime the governor wants to run specialist he uses scientist (or it looked that way always).

    But it's always worth the check if you switch slavery->caste->slavery, but it reduces the amount of visits in each city to reasonable number.

    (Btw in my last finished game - oxfordless Hatty, I had to do it for 32 cities since the governors thought that running GM's was actually better since I "needed" gold with 6k+ in the bank)
     
  17. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

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    Frist part of the post: LOL :lol:
    Yeah, that's me also: "why a Spy???"
    Fantastic :lol:

    I believe that if you click on the specialist icon instead of the (+) it locks the minimum: but it is quite useless in Caste System. I'm not even sure it is the way you activate it, btw.

    :lol: Long story made short: thank you for your help, but still I'll stick with the first reaction. ;) :D :lol:

    Off topic: about the Gandhi test, can you tell me if there a rule about when to switch production to your first settler? I mean: Worker -> building something until "x" -> Settler. When "x" is?
    A specific turn? a specific population? after reaching the :)/:health: cap? a specific total :food: + :hammers: city production? or there aren't specific timing rules?
    There is a discussion that talk about the issue on this forum? Do you have any link?
    Thanks in advance. :)

    EDIT: never mind http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10453258&postcount=8 :)

    yatta.
     
  18. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Sigh another person falling into the trap of focusing their economy to heavily on 1 form of research. Here is how you solve your problem start running a HE every game. Have a GPF, SSC, and hammers.
     
  19. Inso

    Inso Warlord

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    The concepts of 'Cottage Economy' or 'Specialist Economy' aren't too important. Each city settled should be individually specialised to best utilise the surrounding tiles.

    Lots of green riverside? Cottages.

    High food, low hammers? run specialists.

    High food, high hammers? Production city.

    This is a very basic guideline and of course in the imperfect world of Civ a city often ends up being a hybrid of some of these or can switch from one to the other at different times depending on situations. Depending on land the empire may end up being an overall cottage-based or specialist based economy, its quite rare for there to be only one or the other. The idea of going into a game saying 'I am going to run an SE' is very counter productive to efficient play. Like Zero says above a general rule to aim for is one high food GP farm, one or two fully cottaged cities and a couple of production cities on top. All depends on the map though.

    It is really best to go into each city and assign specialists manually, doesn't take long and with the governors off they will stay assigned that way unless there is a sudden change of happy cap at which time they will be reset in what the computer thinks is best (i.e. wrong!). Its not much trouble and saves a lot of bother in knowing exactly which GPP are being generated in each city.
     
  20. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

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    Don't feel too sorry, I'll survive somehow. :lol:
    Btw: Wow! You're so fast individuating problems and finding cures!

    @Inso
    I agree on the need of heavy :hammers: cities for production and troops, but mixing up cottages and specialists IMO you have to put also the Civics in the equation, and they influence your economy a lot. I might be wrong, but from my experience your economy must have at least a generic orientation. Btw: are you able in an hybrid economy, before a revolution, to predict if the change will bring benefits? I'm sincerely not. I've tried CE, SE, Hybrid, and any other kind of weird theory: a wise SE is the one I think more solid.

    yeah, this is what I'm saying. :)

    yatta.
     

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