Misandrism

[RedRalph]

It's been on my mind a lot lately that in some ways, men really do get a raw deal. It bugs me even more that some otherwise intelligent and empathetic people will not even entertain that notion.

Now, given that this is an almost entirely male forum and young males at that, we can all expect some light-hearted "yeah they've got us by the balls" stuff, but I don't want this thread to turn into a mysoginistic rant against women or feminism. So, here's my problems.

1. As previously stated, some people won't entertain the notion that men get a disproportionately hard time in some ways. They (correctly) see that overall, women have had and still do have it harder and suffer more from sexism than men, and seem to think this invalidates any discrimination that men suffer. Doesn't work that way. Just because my sisters may have encountered more sexism than me it doesn't mean the sexism I may have encountered is any less wrong, for example. Some seem to think that by raising this issue you are trivialising sexism against women. Why??? Makes no sense.

2. Jokes about men getting hurt or bellitled are extremely commonplace on TV and in advertising, and no one gives two fiddlestickses about it. Jokes about men being raped are commonplace (don't drop the soap, ha ha), men being kicked in the balls is a comedy staple (don't see many 'jokes' about women being hoofed in the fanny for some reason) and have you ever noticed that while women tend to be sexually objectified in advertising, men tend to be belittled? Men can't work the washing machine, men can't cope with minding the kids, any time an ad centres around one half of a couple 'getting one over' the other, it's invariably the wife who bests the husband. Family Guy is one of the few shows that treats men and women equally appallingly in this respect and I applaud it.

3. While I do believe there is more pressure on women vis-a-vis appearance, there is similar pressure on men and no one takes it seriously. Why is there no recognition that it's just as bad for a 14 YO girl to feel like crap because she doesn't look like Katy Perry as it is for a 14 YO boy to feel like crap because he doesn't look like Usher (or whoever)? Why is objectification of men especially accepted when its in the gay community? Why are oiled-up beefcakes acceptable when it's gay guys leering at them but oiled-up cheerleaders being leered at something 'distasteful'?

4. Why does the Guardian employ the must utterly deranged misandrist, Bidisha to write for them when if they employed a mysoginist equivalent they would be hung, drawn and quartered? The point isn't really the Guardian's editorial policy, the point is that in general, this isn't something that worries anyone.

It just really bugs me. Then there is other stuff like the presupposition of male guilt and evil (guy kills his kids then he's an evil bastard, women kills her kids, she must have snapped, isn't it awful for them and for her, it goes against nature (as if all men have some urge to murder their kids)). The fact that most abuse and neglect of children is by women, yet if somehow me and my wife split up I would have almost no chance of getting custody because I'm a man.

Without resorting to stupidity, does anyone else feel this has gone a bit too far? I'm not blaming women for this, I'm saying society in general has a complete blind spot about it.

 

[Xanikk999]

It's a double standard that is commonplace in other catogories of people such as race and age.

Some women feel it's justified to be sexist because they claim to have a harder time. Well I want equal rights for all and that means women should suffer the negative and positive effects that men do.

One example would be the draft and enlistment in the army. There are very few militaries in the world that employ women in all combat roles despite any sort of individual qualities that may qualify that woman in question. If men gotta serve the draft so should women if they want our equal positive rights.

I believe they should have all the negative rights that we have as well if they have our positive rights.

 

[Shekwan]

That was a great read. Its very true.

The portrayal of men in TV, especially comedy, follows the mould of the idiot Dad to the letter. Charlie Brooker did a good piece on that in "How TV Ruined Your Life". I think its in the "Life Cycle" episode.

The prison rape thing is something I never understood either. I don't find that idea very amusing, but so many people do. Anyone who thinks that stuff is funny would enjoy the prison rape comedy "Stoic" by Uwe Boll. Laugh a minute for those types.

I don't agree about the appearance thing though, men really just have to achieve a basic standard of hygiene and it will do the job. If you feel pressure having to do that you have the intellectual development of and eight year old.

 

[Atticus]

You're absolutely right, Ralph. One of the worst things is that men aren't allowed to even said those things, because it's feminine whining. It irritates women and men alike.

Another sad thing is that there's so little sensible talk about equality for men. Most people who keep noise about it aren't actually speaking about equality or anything like that, but are misogynists, who have a little bit truth, and lots of bitterness. Often they don't think that improving mens situation is the solution, but worsening womens.

 

[RedRalph]

That was a great read. Its very true.

The portrayal of men in TV, especially comedy, follows the mould of the idiot Dad to the letter. Charlie Brooker did a good piece on that in "How TV Ruined Your Life". I think its in the "Life Cycle" episode.

The prison rape thing is something I never understood either. I don't find that idea very amusing, but so many people do. Anyone who thinks that stuff is funny would enjoy the prison rape comedy "Stoic" by Uwe Boll. Laugh a minute for those types.

I don't agree about the appearance thing, men really just have to achieve a basic standard of hygiene and it will do the job.

That, along with a few other things I've seen the last months or so are what set me thinking about this. Re: appearance, for most men that's fine, but for most women it is too. Yet for the few women who freak out if their have a mm of fat on their arse then it's a national crisis, but if a man feels complelled to buff up well then so be it.

You're absolutely right, Ralph. One of the worst things is that men aren't allowed to even said those things, because it's feminine whining. It irritates women and men alike.

Another sad thing is that there's so little sensible talk about equality for men. Most people who keep noise about it aren't actually speaking about equality or anything like that, but are misogynists, who have a little bit truth, and lots of bitterness. Often they don't think that improving mens situation is the solution, but worsening womens.

This is true. People tend to react badly to this because if you say it they assume you are a Jeremy Clarkson-type moron who just wnats to run down feminsim (a philosophy whose name should be changed IMO).

 

[Kyriakos]

Ideally the genders should be treated as equal. I do not see that happening soon though, so you get the reactionary movements like feminism. Obviously there cannot be equality as long as a movement is there to push for it; its end being achieved means the annihilation of the movement at that exact point. Currently there is feminism but no equality, and you see such misandrismoi (well done on not spelling it misoandrism by the way ) around.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

It depend on what kind of an act of sexism toward different kind of women. Or men.

I pat on some women's asses for fun, and there are women that I just don't.

 

[Mise]

It's been on my mind a lot lately that in some ways, men really do get a raw deal. It bugs me even more that some otherwise intelligent and empathetic people will not even entertain that notion.

Now, given that this is an almost entirely male forum and young males at that, we can all expect some light-hearted "yeah they've got us by the balls" stuff, but I don't want this thread to turn into a mysoginistic rant against women or feminism. So, here's my problems.

1. As previously stated, some people won't entertain the notion that men get a disproportionately hard time in some ways. They (correctly) see that overall, women have had and still do have it harder and suffer more from sexism than men, and seem to think this invalidates any discrimination that men suffer. Doesn't work that way. Just because my sisters may have encountered more sexism than me it doesn't mean the sexism I may have encountered is any less wrong, for example. Some seem to think that by raising this issue you are trivialising sexism against women. Why??? Makes no sense.

2. Jokes about men getting hurt or bellitled are extremely commonplace on TV and in advertising, and no one gives two fiddlestickses about it. Jokes about men being raped are commonplace (don't drop the soap, ha ha), men being kicked in the balls is a comedy staple (don't see many 'jokes' about women being hoofed in the fanny for some reason) and have you ever noticed that while women tend to be sexually objectified in advertising, men tend to be belittled? Men can't work the washing machine, men can't cope with minding the kids, any time an ad centres around one half of a couple 'getting one over' the other, it's invariably the wife who bests the husband. Family Guy is one of the few shows that treats men and women equally appallingly in this respect and I applaud it.

3. While I do believe there is more pressure on women vis-a-vis appearance, there is similar pressure on men and no one takes it seriously. Why is there no recognition that it's just as bad for a 14 YO girl to feel like crap because she doesn't look like Katy Perry as it is for a 14 YO boy to feel like crap because he doesn't look like Usher (or whoever)? Why is objectification of men especially accepted when its in the gay community? Why are oiled-up beefcakes acceptable when it's gay guys leering at them but oiled-up cheerleaders being leered at something 'distasteful'?

4. Why does the Guardian employ the must utterly deranged misandrist, Bidisha to write for them when if they employed a mysoginist equivalent they would be hung, drawn and quartered? The point isn't really the Guardian's editorial policy, the point is that in general, this isn't something that worries anyone.

It just really bugs me. Then there is other stuff like the presupposition of male guilt and evil (guy killks his kids then he's an evil bastard, women kills her kids, she must have snapped, isn't it awful for them and for her). The fact that most abuse and neglect of children is by women, yet if omehow me and my wife split up I would have almost no chance of getting custody because I'm a man.

Without resorting to stupidity, does anyone else feel this has gone a bit too far? I'm not blaming women for this, I'm saying society in general has a complete blind spot about it.

First of all, let me say that I agree that there are some genuinely serious situations where men are discriminated against. The "other stuff" you listed is by far the most serious. However, on point 1, the reason why a lot of "politically correct" men won't even entertain the notion is that the vast, vast majority of complaints about sexism against men are completely juvenile and myopic, and are indeed trivialising actual, real discrimination. I therefore assume that people who complain about "discrimination against men" are middle-class suburban white kids, because they are almost always middle-class suburban white kids who know literally nothing about real, actual discrimination.

Now, the lesson for me is that, if you want to draw attention to real problems that men face, particularly in custody and child-raising, then you MUST absolutely tear apart and dismiss any of those other relatively harmless instances where men are treated e.g. as idiots who can't cook, or whatever other insulting stereotype ad producers shove down our throats to promote their products (I assume you saw that Charlie Brooker then? EDIT: I see you have seen it. Serves me right for not reading the thread ). Otherwise, you completely undermine the case against the more serious instances of discrimination that are enshrined in legal statute.


tl;dr - pick your battles.

 

[JollyRoger]

Wow, all of this has stripped a lot of masculinity away. This thread and some of its rsponses are Exhibit A.

 

[Yeekim]

Well, pretty much everything you said is true.
However, it does not bug me one little bit.
Ease up, mate!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Bad Ralph. It's spanking time:

 

[Xanikk999]

^

I would let her spank me any day of the week!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Is Rebecca Chambers still banned? She was hilarious.

 

[MobBoss]

Arent men supposed to have thicker skins in regards to this sort of thing?

I mean, doing the 'leave brittney alone' thing isnt exactly what a lot of folks would call 'manly'.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'm confused as to which body parts you call Brittney Mobby.

 

[Atticus]

I for one don't see child custody, unequal legislation for different groups of people or belittling rapes as small things.

Neither do I think that such things should be silenced on account of gender stereotypes.

 

[Xanikk999]

Arent men supposed to have thicker skins in regards to this sort of thing?

I mean, doing the 'leave brittney alone' thing isnt exactly what a lot of folks would call 'manly'.

We arent arguing the definition of what it means to be "manly" according to traditional beliefs.

We are arguing against the set in stone expectations that men and women have to abide by.

 

[Kyriakos]

In reality no one has to abide by anything of the sort.

 

[JollyRoger]

We arent arguing the definition of what it means to be "manly" according to traditional beliefs.

We are arguing against the set in stone expectations that men and women have to abide by.

Gender roles are more open than ever. You can easily become a bendover boyfriend these days if the set in stone expectations offend your delicate sensibilities.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

This is very true, most feminists are misandrists.