Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Houman, Dec 22, 2005.
OoOooOOOoo!! Chalk up two points for Thalassicus!
Will you people please stop whining and get over yourselves. The fact is pretty much all religions can somehow be related to each other in one way or another. The basis of all religions can be traced back to before history was recorded. Its senseless to argue over which religions are/were more influential or substantial. Please, give it a rest. And stop using game forums as a means to spread your "religion".
um, when u assume u make an ass out of u and me!! i was born and raised muslim, so how am i spreading my religion again???? and if you dont like this discussion, then feel free to be quiet.
I see some people coming up with the argument how many Zoroastrians live today and hence the number is so small that it wouldn't play a role for today.
People, this game is about history. The beginning of our civilization! Many great things that had existed in those times, which do not exist anymore. But are we going to skip them? No!! This game is about to re-write the history! To make a difference! This is all about!
Zoroastrism came not in Babylon but in the greater North-East Persia (Bactria) about 3700 years ago. Over 50 small countries from West India, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey and Cyprus, along with parts of Afghanistan, Sodgia, Bactria, Tadjikestan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia believed in this faith over 2300 years. This is even longer than Christianity!!! Who says that it dies out right after it's founder? Before writing such poor arguments, read some books, if you still don't know, ask about it! Think about it!
This argument brought up by some of you, that there are so few Zoroastrians left in the world, hence we skip it, is the worst argument ever. If Islam didn't conquer Persia in 651 A.D. Most of Middleeast would still be Zoroastrians, a proxy between Hinduism and Buddhism in the east and Christianity and Islam in the West. The Zoroastrians disappeared slowly under the Muslim rule after 300 years. There are in minority only since 1100 years, and you say we should skip them? Why not skip the Romans, who failed about 2000 years ago?
Wake up guys! This is not about spreading some sort of religion, this diskussion could also be about any other important point in the history! This game is about re-writing the history, about what if the outcome of some events would have been differently!!! And you can't just ignore Zoroastrism, because it was not a big, but huge factor in those times.
And it's not a dead religion nowadays eighter. In India they still have a Zoroastrianism stronghold in Bombay I think......
I demand secular humanism - founded with scientific method.
I demand Satanism.
Then building Rock N Roll could spread it in every city. Plus you get to hear some cool music when you discover it.
The best idea I've seen from this thread is the idea of naming religions. Triggered by the same techs...this would be so cool.
The debate is also informative...and minimal flaming. Good work.
Now...can someone make a religion naming mod?
Funny how every single thread about "Why isn't religion X in this game?" becomes a philosophical and historical argument, and ends up not relating to Civ4.
Someone please explain to me how a religion conquers a civilization.
The newly converted Arabs began spreading their new religion across all of Southwestern Asia, Northern Africa and even Spain in the first 100 years. This was not a peaceful conversion process with the sending of missionaries.
This was conversion by armies, with newly conquered cities' populations being given the choice of conversion. The "People of the Book", Jews and Christians were given the choice of conversion or continuing to practice their religion, but paying higher taxes to the new government. Inter-faith warfare (for example between Christian sects in Alexandria) was halted and oppressed minorities of minority Christian and Jewish sects were protected.
It however, was not the same situation for idolators when the armies of the conquerers came to town. In many cases, people who were considered to be Pagans were given the immediate choice of conversion or execution. At the very least, they were sent packing to the borders of the conquest. The Parthians of Persia were almost completely eliminated by this, and they had a vibrant culture that had held the Roman Empire at Bay for 700 years.
In 7th Century Islam, there was no differentiation between religion, state and civilization. All were united, and formed an empire that really didn't start breaking up until the 19th century, although the temporal rulers changed over that period and soon after the conquest, there were two different interpretations of the religion that were in some conflict.
I apologize to any Moslem readers if I got the history muddled. It is the best that I remember from my military history studies years ago.
i'm sorry, but nobody even mentioned "the church of the holy fonz"...
Hey what about the Rastafarians man. Bob Marley could be a Great Prophet Surely their practices would increase the happiness of a population, as well as mental health costs.
Burn One Down.
The religion is still alive, but its members are not allowed to accept in converts, and as such is slowly dying off.
That also, is a good reason to not include it - it is against the faith to spread it, and the religions in Civ IV are all missionary. Even Judiasm accepts converts.
That is a branch of Christianity.
It would be no more appropriate to include than it would to include 'Mormon', 'Catholic', 'Baptist', 'Voodoo/Santeria', 'Episcopalian', "Orthodox', 'Coptic (aka Ethiopian - the oldest Christian sect)', and other branches of Christianity - when Christianity is already included.
Taoism is the philosophy of Lao Tzu, and has absolutely zero religious connections in its core teachings, although later followers did try to diefy some of the concepts - most Taoists are more like 'Socratists' than Buddhists or Christians.
Buddha also stated he was in no way connected to the divine, but Buddhism very quickly got tied up in Hindu deities, and today is only a philosophy in the west. IN the philosophy, Buddhism is a little nihilistic, seeking the denial of the self in order to cease existance because all existance is suffering.
I myself am a Taoist, but also a Christian.
Taoism is a path of being rather than acting. A taoist seeks to be in harmony with themselves and with the universe, rather than to act upon their nature or the universe.
Confuscionism is a legal/political system if anything. It is more like Freudian or Constitutionalism or Marxism or 'Republicanism' (elected government, not the political party), and to call it even a philosophy is a little off.
Confuscian thought is about how structures of socio-political policing should be built within a society - who should rule and who should serve and how loyalty should be seen. In the Confuscian model, there must be absolute order and a rule for every aspect of life or all of society will fall into complete anarchy. If even one thing is unordered, if there is even one aspect for which you lack a rule, all will be lost. Korea was the strongest adopter of the system, but it is so extreme that no actual society could really follow it (much like most of the 'great teachings' - the model is usually so severe that you can only aspire to it rather than be it).
ps: My degree is in political science with a minor in criminal justice, and I am working towards a career in law. My undergrad studies dealt heavily in political theory and at one point I read the core 'holy books' of the major Eastern philosophies. I say this so people can understand why I approach topics the way I do.
If I were to structure the 'religions' in Civ, I would have started with this extremely rough sketch:
Yoruba (Voodoo is a mix of Catholicism and Yoruba)
And I know I am missing at least one more major African faith
This is very rough though, and about half of these are 'place holders and question marks', where I would want to get a little more education in the given region and then correct them. See my notes below for my thinking at present.
Ancestor worship covers the traditional faiths of the Chinese, Koreans, and those Native Americans who were not Shamanic.
Judaism is not on my list as it is a faith that lacks a missionary aspect. To join it you have to go through an amazing amount of work to prove you are a convert. However if I am wrong on that I would correct this. Further, in the western world despite the lack of a missionary aspect this faith has had an extremely important role, and therefore it might need to be added just to keep things from looking strange to a westerner (and probably 80-95% of Civ IV players live in the western world). Zorastrianism is not on my list as it does not even allow converts.
Other faiths like Shiks, Drew, etc are not on my list as they are too small, but if someone with good knowledge of them could say that they do seek converts I would change this to handle the 'what-if' factor.
However, I would want to sit down and refine my list as much as I could to use general terms rather than specifics where a general term can cover many similar faiths that don't 'fight'. For example, the same term could covers both Christians and Muslims as they are essentially sects of each other, however they are in competitive conflict enough that they can be distinguished. By 5000AD though, it is likely they will be the same religion...
Some of my polytheistic religions might be more justified being grouped together as one, and I would want to sit down and think about that.
Aboriginee might be Shamanic, but I know so little about it that for now I kept it seperate. For all I know it belongs in the same category as 'Greco-Roman', as in that is how little I know about it...
Buddhism has become so intertwined with a pack of 'Buddhist saint-deities' in the eastern countries that it belongs as a religion where other philosophies (such as Taoism) do not (the Taoists who call it a religion are in the extreme minority of Taoists, whereas the opposite is true of Buddhists).
Toltec is a 'place holder' for the faith of the people from the Aztecs down to the Inca. I know for a fact that the Inca and the Aztecs had very different faiths, so this is merely a place a holder until I figure out where to put them each and where to put the Maya on my lists without making my lists grow to big...
Yoruba is a traditional faith of west Africa, and the only such faith whose name I know. For now it is a place holder for 'African religions', but I am sure that keeping things that way would be quite offensive. I don't know enough about the other faiths of Africa however...
"...Until 2002 the worldwide population figures for Zoroastrians had been estimated at anywhere between 180,000 and 250,000. NOTE: diaspora or worldwide population figures include both Parsis and Iranians; there is no way to estimate numbers of Parsis alone except when referring to India and Pakistan. India's 2001 Census found 69,601 Parsi Zoroastrians, in Pakistan they number 5000, mostly living in Karachi. North America is thought to be home to 18,000-25,000 Zoroastrians of both Parsi and Iranian background. Iran's figures of Zoroastrians have ranged widely.
Since 2002 population estimates have been sharply increased. Recent publications of many major encyclopedias and world alamanacs include population estimates of 2 to 3.5 million... Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 and subsequent U.S.-led intervention in the Middle East, the Parsees of Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have been receiving less persecution than before, and have been less reticent about identifying themselves..."
There is definitely more of them than 140,000. Although it is still quite small compared to other major religions...
Very nice explained until here. I can't add something to it.
This however is there to debate. The Caliphate was already broken apart not too long after the conquest of Persia. Abbasid Dynasty is one example. Very soon new and old countries started to revolt and become independent. But this is another discussion in a different thread.
Separate names with a comma.