Mixed bag of questions

[ACEofPANZERS]

hey all, i've been playing for over a year now and continue to learn something new each game. i play on regent, which is about my match. anyway, i've made mental notes of some oddities that have occurred along the way to which I have no answer. appreciate any answers!
- in some games, every nation is furious with me very early on even though i have attacked nobody, done nothing that i know of that would be considered underhanded, not broken any deals. what gives?

- i've also noticed that for example spain attacks me and i have not violated its borders whatsoever. later, netherlands says "spain has told us of your breaking deals. we cannot trust you. we will not do business with u." i didn't break any deals. if i had a trade deal with spain (which i don't remember if i did), they were the ones who were dirty and ended such a deal by attacking me.

- late in a game, i nuked india. two others declared war on me. a few turns later i was nuked by an icbm. is there any way to tell who nuked me? if several of them had uranium, then how do i know who did it?

- i've seen in the info sections of this site, that some people don't research much, they buy many techs from ai's for some parts of the game. i am finding that when i need techs, i am 5-7 techs behind, they will not sell them to me. so how can one use this strategy of depending on them if they gang up and all will not sell you techs?

- also, when i have the great library, is there some way to avoid my wisemen discovering education? sometimes, i learn education way earlier than i expected.

 

[jeffred1111]

hey all, i've been playing for over a year now and continue to learn something new each game. i play on regent, which is about my match. anyway, i've made mental notes of some oddities that have occurred along the way to which I have no answer. appreciate any answers!
- in some games, every nation is furious with me very early on even though i have attacked nobody, done nothing that i know of that would be considered underhanded, not broken any deals. what gives?

Do you have embassies with them ? This often helps with the furious/annoyed attitude. Trading maps (careful, if your map is valuable, you might want to skip this), ressources, techs or even plain old tribute can turn that frown upside down. Gov type also has an effect (if you are in Monarchy and they are Despot and hate Monarchy, they WILL hate you).

- i've also noticed that for example spain attacks me and i have not violated its borders whatsoever. later, netherlands says "spain has told us of your breaking deals. we cannot trust you. we will not do business with u." i didn't break any deals. if i had a trade deal with spain (which i don't remember if i did), they were the ones who were dirty and ended such a deal by attacking me.

Peace deals last a number of turns (20) and then they actually "stay" there. If you cancel peace without letting 20 turns go, this will stain your rep.

- i've seen in the info sections of this site, that some people don't research much, they buy many techs from ai's for some parts of the game. i am finding that when i need techs, i am 5-7 techs behind, they will not sell them to me. so how can one use this strategy of depending on them if they gang up and all will not sell you techs?

This has a lot to do with:
a) wich tech you decide to research if you actually do any research
b) cash flow, the value of other commodities you have (lux/maps, contacts).

What I usually do on the higher levels is go with a tech that the AI simply doesn't research a lot of the time. I leave research at min and go for mysticism, philosophy, lit, currency or sometimes dead-end tech that have a wonder attached to them (ie. Music Theory). If you have the Monopoly on Monarchy, for exemple, this tech is worth a lot to the other civs and you can get a lot of gold/techs/lux/contacts/maps for it. Especially if you can then sell some of the stuff you got to other civs.

Example from a recent game: I was very backwards, playing a 5CC, yet the AI didn't research Myst. I got the tech and sold it to the English for Map Making and Warrior Code. The Indians didn't have Map Making and gave me Horse Riding + gold + contact to some other civ for it. This civ, the French, having only contact with the Indians, were even more backwards so I sold them some early AA tech for some gold and then bought pottery wich I didn't have.

I thus got a lot of gold/techs from researching a somewhat "worthless" tech that still opens up the Monarchy path, so the AI values it (altough not enough to pursue it early in some games). Keeping civs from contacting each others is thus a must in most games and if you have contact with 2-3 civs on another continents due to have the Great Lighthouse, you can effectively dictate the tech pace and get very rich only brokering techs.

Such a strat needs you to have a spotless rep and keeping up to date with diplo, though. So this means no ROP rape, no breaking gpt deals (or any deals) or not even declaring when you have units inside their borders without a ROP. Breaking alliances, MPP's or even peace treaties is also a no-no, unless you plan on wiping out that civ completly before they contact any of your trade partners. This is usually rough unless they are completly backwards and on a 4 city island somewhere that you can crush rapidly once you get galleons.

Another note, "pointy stick" research is also a very good way to get techs. Attack a tech rich AI using cats in great numbers + SOD (even obsolete units do when you can redline anything that moves) and do so until they give you the techs you want. Sell said techs afterwards (or keep them to slow the pace). Wait 20 turns and repeat. This is especially great if you can get into Monarchy quickly (for cash-rushing and a strong economy) and have a late AA UU (this is usually the way I go with the Iroquois) or a Knight based one such as the Rider. This means you have both money, you can expand and the GA is in the "sweet spot" (infrastructure building period in the early to middle MA).

- Regarding the GL, some "gift" it to a faraway civ that they plan to get at war with anyway and they just never learn Education, retaking the library when they have nothing else to research in the MA. This is somewhat of an exploit though and I'd recommend not using it as it is a formidable crutch. I myself wouldn't use it unless playing Deity.

 

[CommandoBob]

- in some games, every nation is furious with me very early on even though i have attacked nobody, done nothing that i know of that would be considered underhanded, not broken any deals. what gives?

How strong are you in relation to the AI? If you are weak the AI will try to bully you. Check F3 to see how you compare to the other guys.

- i've also noticed that for example spain attacks me and i have not violated its borders whatsoever. later, netherlands says "spain has told us of your breaking deals. we cannot trust you. we will not do business with u." i didn't break any deals. if i had a trade deal with spain (which i don't remember if i did), they were the ones who were dirty and ended such a deal by attacking me.

If you were trading Spices to India and Spain attacked and took those Spices, then you are held at fault and are considered the guilty party in breaking the trade agreement. After all, they were your Spices in your territory and you let Spain get them.

Sadly, the AI will remember you broken trades a lot longer than another AI's.

- late in a game, i nuked india. two others declared war on me. a few turns later i was nuked by an icbm. is there any way to tell who nuked me? if several of them had uranium, then how do i know who did it?

Not directly, no. You could check F4, the Trade Advisor, to see what techs everyone has, which may help. You won't be able to tell what the AIs are trading to each other, but you will know which one of them has the know-how to build ICBMs and plan accordingly.

- i've seen in the info sections of this site, that some people don't research much, they buy many techs from ai's for some parts of the game. i am finding that when i need techs, i am 5-7 techs behind, they will not sell them to me. so how can one use this strategy of depending on them if they gang up and all will not sell you techs?

Most likely you may not have enough cash. Each tech has a value in gold, which the AI knows and we can guess. AIs value the Government techs quite highly, so you might want to learn them on your own. If an AI has a monopoly on a tech, the price will be high, too.

The utility program CivAssist II has a section in it devoted to tech costs, measured in beakers. That will help you also, when you start comparing techs to gold and what you are getting for your cash.

- also, when i have the great library, is there some way to avoid my wisemen discovering education? sometimes, i learn education way earlier than i expected.

You don't really control this. If two other civs learn Education, then you learn it too and thus the Great Library dies. The most you could do is keep the AIs in constant warfare with each other. The more they war, the less they learn. Which slows down the tech pace.

At Regent you shouldn't need the Great Library. You should be able to outresearch the AI without a lot of trouble.

If You really, Really want to know...
If you could post a save game file from one of your games in question, several folks here would take the time to look at that game and discuss things about the game that you may not have considered. You are not bound to follow their advice, but if you are too comfortable at Regent and want to move up a level or two, then this would be a good learning tool for you.

Or, start a Succession Game. Since you have several people playing with you, and each one of you plays about 10 turns at one time, it is easier, much easier, to play above your normal level. A full 540 turn game at Emperor might be scary right now, but if you had a clear idea of what you needed to do over just 10 turns, the fright factor goes down quite a bit.

 

[ACEofPANZERS]

thanks for the replies. i think that i've improved soooo much in production, food, and battling ai's. but manipulating diplomacy and being a hardy trader are two things i have really got to take to the next level.

regarding one of your responses, why would the others hate me if i am in monarchy and they are not, early in the game?

also, i've noticed that communism really seems to work best for me later in the game. u have so much blooming corruption in your far off cities that it takes them 50 turns to make a unit. whole captured islands of 4-6 cities do u no good at all other than making them into specialist or wealth farms. as soon as i hit communism, boom, everything takes off for me. i like the productivity of fascism, but it doesn't do anything much to help corruption. any other comrades out there?

 

[CommandoBob]

regarding one of your responses, why would the others hate me if i am in monarchy and they are not, early in the game?

If you're talking about how the other AIs feel towards you, well, ignore it. It is mostly window dressing.

What is more important is whether or not they will trade with you, and that has nothing to do with how they feel about you. AI trading is all about making a deal and keeping it. An important footnote to trading is not to declare war on AI if you have any units (including workers, settlers or naval) inside their borders. If it has your color on it, get it outside of their borders before you attack anywhere.

I'm not that well versed on all the ins and outs of the Trade Rep. I have seen games where it can get busted early and then slowly restored. I think that was the SG Phaedo 01, back in '06 (?).

When your Trade Rep is busted you cannot make GPT deals with the AI. You won't be able to make a deal that has any GPT involved. The AI won't trust you to honor the deal. Now, the AI will make GPT to you, where they pay you each turn. But they won't let you do the same.

So, early in the game, it is not wise to make GPT deals (which also includes trading Luxuries and Resources, too). If you have only one road that connects to the other AI's capital, the deal is somewhat risky. If a Barbarian ends his turn on that road, the trade route is cut. And you are to blame. If you connect via coastal tiles, but not sea or ocean tiles, and a Barbarian boat ends its turn in the wrong coastal tile, the trade route is cut. And you are to blame. If you make war with an AI and any of your trade routes run through their territory to another AI, make sure you have a secondary trade route to your trading partner before you declare war. Otherwise, the war will cut the trade route and guess what? You are to blame.

Does Trade Rep affect tech for tech trades? No. Does it affect you selling a tech to an AI for 20 gpt? Nope. Would it affect trading luxury for luxury? You bet. That deal is treated like a GPT trade, since you are agreeing to send the luxury to them for 20 turns.

An AI might be Furious with you, but that doesn't affect the trade deal. It could affect how long the deal might last, but that is a different subject.

also, i've noticed that communism really seems to work best for me later in the game. u have so much blooming corruption in your far off cities that it takes them 50 turns to make a unit. whole captured islands of 4-6 cities do u no good at all other than making them into specialist or wealth farms. as soon as i hit communism, boom, everything takes off for me. i like the productivity of fascism, but it doesn't do anything much to help corruption. any other comrades out there?

I've not played with Communism even now. I'll revolt once to Republic and stay there the rest of the game. Usually. In our 100K Culture Succession Game, CBob04, we revolted to Republic and then later revolted in Feudalism so that we could whip our cultural buildings. But most of the time, I revolt only once. Unless you are REL, the turns of anarchy can be a killer.

EIDT:
Oops! I didn't realized I got so longwinded!

 

[ACEofPANZERS]

i cannot afford republic. if i ever change to it, i immediately become very poor because maintaining even a defensive force enough to not be bullied by everyone in the game breaks the bank account. how do u work around that? later on, communism offers great unit support for massive wars when i want to win by conquest.

 

[Spartanism]

Roads, roads and more roads followed by railroads.


I have never had a problem waging wars in Rep and having a large army is not a problem as long as you use it. You should always gain enough cities and increase your pop enough to cover the maint. If your military costs you 100 gold in support then when you go to war you should be able to gain 100 gold in economy every turn from it.

 

[CommandoBob]

i cannot afford republic. if i ever change to it, i immediately become very poor because maintaining even a defensive force enough to not be bullied by everyone in the game breaks the bank account. how do u work around that? later on, communism offers great unit support for massive wars when i want to win by conquest.

Don't try to maintain a defensive force in each city. Border cities, yes. But in the core and those removed from the front lines of a war, they are not needed. Remember, in Republic, units in cities do not affect happiness in any way, unlike Despotism and Monarchy. So, once you go to Republic, your entire military can be used to wage war.

If you are being bullied by the AI, you either don't have a large enough army or you have the wrong units. The AI calculates your military strength passed on the Attack points you have. Defense doesn't count. If you've got a lot of Spear and Pikes, you will be seen as weak.

Another reason that unit support could be a problem is that your cities are too small. In Despotism, each city, regardless of size, will support 4 units. In Republic, the numbers are 1/3/5 (I think). So, if you revolt into Republic with 40 units and all ten of your cities are size 6 or less, well, unit upkeep is going to sting for a bit. But, once your cities grow past size 6, unit support will increase. And as your cities grow, your commerce will increase and that will lighten the burden of the army.

A lot depends on what you build in your cities. Don't build everything everywhere. Unless you are heading for a cultural victory, ignore temples. Build libraries instead. They cost more, true, but they help you get smarter faster and they give 3 culture per turn. Don't know what to build? Try a worker (it is hard to have too many workers), a settler or a fighting unit (veteran).

You may want to follow this thread, Rod02-Caesar's Confusion. This is an Always War game with some specialized settings, but it is a Regent level game, playing as Rome. Another Regent level game was Myth01- Training Day- Regent. This one was China and we took a Domination victory after 1350 AD, taking almost 90 game hours. Standard map size and continents, if that helps any. Since it was a Training Day game, it gots lots of input from lurkers just trying to help and explain things.

 

[ACEofPANZERS]

Roads, roads and more roads followed by railroads.


I have never had a problem waging wars in Rep and having a large army is not a problem as long as you use it. You should always gain enough cities and increase your pop enough to cover the maint. If your military costs you 100 gold in support then when you go to war you should be able to gain 100 gold in economy every turn from it.

how do u "gain 100 gold in econ every turn"?

 

[Elear]

Perhaps this is some reference to the Wall Street small wonder, which gives interest, I am not sure.

 

[Aabraxan]

Lots of good info in this thread and I'd just like to add one little addendum to CBob's post: The amount of support that you get from Republic depends on the version that you're playing. I didn't see your version mentioned, but I may have just overlooked it. In Vanilla, Republic give no unit support. In C3C, the support is 1/3/4. Getting your towns to clear the hurdle from size 6 to 7 goes a long way towards helping support. Getting lots of roads and some markets (especially if you have 3+ luxes) also helps a lot. Keep a sharp eye out for workers for sale, too. Sure, slaves are slower, but they don't cost any upkeep either.