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Moai Statues

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Jun 14, 2009.

  1. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Yay, more MM threads...

    Moai Statues (refered to as ms in this thread) provides +1 hammer on every sea tile in a cities radius. It costs 250 hammers, production of it is doubled by stone (which we don't have).

    There are 3 good candidates to have ms IMO, with one of them an outstanding candidate. Now, on with the show...


    Golden Monkey

    GM is the city that would make the most use of ms, with 7 coastal, 4 ocean tiles, but is also the city with the least hammer potential and the longest build time, maxing out at 22.5 hammers/turn (using MM, and never usinghte gold, pre-bio). It'll have difficulty making more than 12 hpt average at size 4, and it would have to neglect specific aim of the city, which is to rake in the commerce.




    Sunburst

    Sb is a decent candidate for ms, but worse than the others in 3 different ways:

    1. Only has 5 coastal tiles and 3 ocean tiles
    2. Has the least development so needs alot of worker attention
    3. Would neglect the aim of the city to rake in commerce while it's set up as a hybrid production/commerce city.

    OTOH, without ms Sb is capable of 24 hpt without a forge, with a forge and ms it is another 40 hpt city at size 19, which it isn't really going to hit in the next 50 turns...




    Fog and Cloud

    FC is the outstanding candidate IMO, even though it only has 7 coastal, 2 ocean tiles to use. It is capable of 40 hpt after ms is complete at size 15 (all it needs is calendar and an aquaduct to reach that size), is already capable of starting ms next turn (whether we want to or not is a different matter), and is situated in a very safe location.




    My conclusion is that FC should be the Moai city, and should build it as one of the next 3 builds (lighthouse, library and Moai). How to go about that is another matter though.
     
  2. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Now, here's the interesting thing about FC: if we get the lighthouse in there and grow the city asap, we should still work the iron tile due to the forge. If we dont work the iron tile, the city makes 3 hpt, with the iron it boosts it to 9 base, and so gets 2 extra hammers from the forge, so the iron tile is effectively an 8 hammer tile, which we should never stop working.

    There will be enough health next turn to grow FC to size 8, when the corn is hooked up at DT it can grow to size 10. To grow past size 10 we need to get the rice to the east of IS hooked up, and/or a banana improved, or an aquaduct. We need all 3 of those to reach size 15 (the max attainable size in FC). With a lighthouse, and working only the iron tile and sheep as the land based tiles, FC has a food surplus of +6, and can rake in a load of commerce from the coastal tiles. If it approaches the health cap, we can just shift back to working hills until more resources are hooked.

    If it heads straight onto Moai though, it can be built in 10 turns (t109) in the current configuration, but we'll lose alot of commerce from the delayed growth...

    So, if the lighthouse is built first, then Moai can be built quickly while growing to size 7, or slowly while growing straight to the health cap. However...if we grow it quickly to use the commerce, we really should throw in a lib because are are going to be teching, and the lib is worth around 5 bpt+, more if we end up working scientists in the medium turn in FC for whatever reason.

    So that begs the question: what do we want more? Production or commerce?
     
  3. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I'd prefer to get compass and build a harbor over an aqueduct - more health (we have all three seafood resources), plus more money from our 4 trade routes - but we may need to go aqueduct first...

    I like F&C myself, and might suggest we build it there NOW, before the lighthouse. Then we can move all the hillmen to the fleet, cause they could use the fresh air after the mines, and built lighthouse/library and continue to grow.
     
  4. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Harbour would be preferable to an aquaduct: cheaper, more health, and better trade route yields. Only problem is we don't know when we'll get compass...(although don't rule it out...I've got a couple of tricks to get lib asap and it involves getting compass to block off bulbing routes).
     
  5. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    LH LIB MOIA

    LH because we want to work the coast.
    Lib beause it is so cheap
     
  6. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    hmm. interesting question.

    I think lighthouse is first. That helps us grow no matter what.

    I think moai second - with that, we can build and grow - we get the lib and market and get large. The lib is just not that useful without a lot of commerce coming in, not with a science rate of 50-60%. A market might actually be more useful than a lib - but the most useful will be to be able to use all those 3 and 4 commerce tiles and continue to have some form of production.
     
  7. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Er, FC would be making 22 commerce at size 6, and increases by 4 by every pop increase. It's shortly going to become our 3rd best commerce city...
     
  8. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    At our current research, which probably wont' be going up much anytime soon, since we are expanding, a library will add .6 beaker per 4 commerce tile.

    Moai will add 1.25 hammer per 4 commerce tile, thus making it easier for us to build lib and market (which may be more useful to us
     
  9. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Maoi = 250 hammers; 1.25 production modifier
    Lib = 90; 2.25 production modifier

    The lib could be built in 3 turns after the lighthouse, whilst growing. We are going to be teching shortly, 70% of the extra commerce that we generate is going to go through the lib, as well as all the extra commerce in IS. We need to tech, and the lib is cheap. Our research is going to up massively though at t102; we should get an extra 12 commerce through trade routes, and extra 28 commerce (at least) from FC and IS. By t110 our commerce should have atleast doubled to 120 commerce; that's not counting beakers from scientists.

    If we build Moai asap though, we are leaving FC at size 6. If we are building it after the lighthouse, we aren't utilising the lighthouse to grow and rake in the commerce, so that's a waste of 60 hammers that could be used to get the Maoi earlier. If we build it slowly after a lighthouse to grow asap, then we're wasting quite a few beakers, atleast 4/turn from teh lib, for the length of the construction, which is something like 22-25 turns, so roughly 80-100 beakers
     
  10. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Maoi = 250 :hammers: = 200 :hammers: Base
    Lib = 90 :hammers: = 40 :hammers: Base
    Lightouse = 60 :hammers: = 48 :hammers: Base

    So the total :hammers: is 288 we need to spend. So All :hammers: are now in base.

    We Need +12 :food: to Grow.
    We Have +21 :hammers: overflow
    We have +20 :hammers: per turn at +0FPT.

    So using that The fastest we get Maoi is: 10 turns. It would then take 3 turns for the Lighthouse (if we stayed in :hammers: mode)

    At that point we then start growing and get +1 :hammers: per turn in the sea.
     
  11. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    The argument for lighthouse next is we can grow striaght to size 7 and then make 23 hpt base, so 28 hammers after the forge.

    Build the lighthouse as normal (t100-t102)

    Then
    t103, base 24 hammers, +5 fpt
    t104, base 9 hammers, +6 fpt
    t105, base 23 hammers, 0fpt
    ...
    t112, finish Moai, 12 base hammers overflow, size 7

    The question is which is more important, commerce (and growing) or the hammers. No one has actually answered that point yet.
     
  12. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Lighthouse first. No question.

    Say we build the lighthouse and grow as fast as we can and build lib->moai. We get the lib in 3 turns, moai in 20.

    If we build moai->lib, we get moai in 20 and the lib in 2, and everything after that is a turn earlier.

    The cost for that is, as Krill says, 76 beakers or so.

    if we build Moai and grow slowly, we get moai 10 turns earlier, but at a cost of 60 beakers and 40 gold or something like that - but we get the market, harbor, aqeduct, etc 10 turns earlier.

    That's not precisely true, in that F&G would have 10 turns fewer growth, of course.

    I think we should go the high growth route, no matter what.

    Does the 80 beakers offset long term benefits of getting every other improvement a turn earlier? probably.

    Particularly if we get machinery and can build a windmill in that time and get another hammer without giving up too much in the way of commerce
     
  13. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    A strong argument for FC is that it is likely to be a military pump until it grows to size 15; it grows much slower than IS, and a little slower than CK. Because of this it shouldn't be building workers or settlers unless we really need them, and IS and CK are busy, maybe making workers and settlers themselves.

    I don't really see FC as a crown jewel raking in massive amounts of commerce, I think it's more likely it'll be a solid production city that coincidentally makes some commerce whilst growing. I think there's a decent chance it becomes a major contributor to military, and doesn't get a whole load of improvements (harbour, lib excluded). We shouldn't forget that while Saturn can tech faster than us atm, in about 20 turns the tablse are going to turn on that.

    AT, I wouldn't sell the quick build short. Depending on naval issues (ie how fast we need caravels), and how hard Kaz push back, the hammers could well turn out to be a major advantage.
     
  14. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Well, there's no doubt, in my mind, that the quick build for Moai is wrong.

    it may be that what we do is go lighthouse and grow, but assign new citizens to the two grass hills instead of high commerce tiles until we build moai, which will reduce the amount of time it takes to build it.

    And if we can get some hammers from forest chops... well, that would shave a turn or two off.
     
  15. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    No forests left to chop into FC, IS, JD; there are a few forests to chop into CK that aren't in the immediate vicinity of the city. GM and Sb both have 3 forests but they'll all be gone in 10 turns...DT has about 5 forests, Angle has 11.

    Working 1 grass hill instead of the coast makes sense, to get to 15 hpt instead of 11 hpt. Gets Maoi by t118, and costs an extra 14 food, 56 commerce from not working the coast, and lost oppurtunity cost of growth. We'd get back 6 turns worth of hammers from teh sea though, which would be quite substantial at that point, and we'd get the majority of the commerce.

    That seems like a good compromise tbh.
     
  16. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    How do hammers get assigned to cities when a forest chop happens from outside the fatcross?
     
  17. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

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    Out there, somewhere, anywhere...
    As far as I know it still goes to the closest city, not sure what happens if it's equal distance.
     
  18. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    All forests equidistant between CK and FC go to CK, so it makes me think they go to the oldest city.
     
  19. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Most :culture: influence on the tile. That is the city that gets it. In this Case it is CK.
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    It's pretty much always going to be CK if it's culture. The Oracle just overloads everything.
     

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