[MOD] Buey's beyond epic game speed

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by buey, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. buey

    buey Chieftain

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    Nov 29, 2005
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    Note: current version is 2 - if you're not using it, pick it up.
    ---

    Well, I meant to post this a while ago, but playtesting these mods takes a loooong time.

    This mod is meant to provide a longer, more satisfying game. The total number of turns is over triple that of the normal game speed. Science and barbarian activity were more than tripled to keep them in line with the turn increase, but all other levels were trimmed to 250%. This prevents the game from consisting of only more end-of-turns, which would make it no better than epic. I believe these speed values create the longest possible game that still preserves the relative length of each era.

    In addition to adjusting the game speed values, I've increased the costs of technologies to compensate for the increased growth rate. So far these values, along with the change in science buldings, are keeping tech rates constrained enough that the timeline makes as much sense as in normal speed games.

    It still needs more playtesting, but so far appears to be pretty well balanced for my style of play (lots of science, expand to ~15 cities, go for the most modern military.) Unfortunately, it takes forever to playtest a game designed to last for days of playtime, so any feedback (at the Apolyton or Civfanatics forums) would be greatly appreciated.

    Here's a little chart of the math that went into the values I chose:

    Code:
    Era		inc	turns	years	end	factor
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    norm Ancient	40	 75	3000    1000BC  
    epic Ancient	40	 50	2000	2000BC	
    new Ancient	15	130	1950	2050BC	2.667 * epic
    
    norm Classical	25	 60	1500	 500AD	
    epic Classical	25	 40	1000	1000BC	
    new Classical	10	105	1050	1000BC	2.625 * epic
    
    norm Medieval	20	 25	 500	1000AD	
    epic Medieval	20	 70	1400	 400AD	
    new Medieval	 7	200	1400	 400AD	2.857 * epic
    
    norm Renaiss.	10	 50	 500	1500AD
    epic Renaiss.	10	 60	 600	1000AD
    new Renaissance	 5	160	 800	1200AD	2.667 * epic
    
    norm Industrial	 5	 70	 350	1850AD
    epic Industrial	 5	130	 750	1750AD
    new Industrial	 2	300	 600	1800AD	2.308 * epic
    
    norm Modern	 2	 50	 100	1950AD
    epic Modern	 2	100	 200	1950AD
    new Modern	 1	250	 250	2050AD	2.5 * epic
    
    norm Future	 1	100	 100	2100AD
    epic Future	 1	200	 200	2150AD
    new Future	 1	200	 200	2250AD	same as epic
    
    Totals:		turns	%normal
    -------------------------------	
    normal		430	100
    epic		650	151.2
    new		1345	312.8
    
    I used Vilu's technology cost editor to change the tech costs as follows:

    Code:
    Ancient: 	0.75 * normal
    Classical: 	Normal
    Medieval: 	1.25 * normal
    Renaissance:	1.5 * normal
    Industrial:	2.0 * normal
    Modern:		2.5 * normal
    Future:		3 * normal
    
    And finally, I changed the science bonuses provided by buildings as follows:

    Code:
    Monastery:	10% -> 5%
    Library:	25% -> 10%
    University:	25% -> 10%
    Observatory:	25% -> 10%
    Laboratory:	25% -> 10%
    Academy:	50% -> 25%
    
    Version 2 updates:
    - Changed tech costs by era from (1.0, 1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, 2.2) to (0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0) to speed up the early game a bit and better compensate for the increased production in the late game.
    - Changed the unit train rate from 250% to 200% to allow for more units, since the AI seems to be doing OK with it.
    - Changed the building construction rate from 250% to 225% to speed up the game a bit.
    - Increased the science bonus of the Academy from 10% to 25% to make them worthwhile.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Junuxx

    Junuxx Emperor

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    Sep 6, 2005
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    1,153
    Why the change to the science bonuses? What's the use of an Academy if it gives just 10% more science. The academy has to be in balance with the other things a Great Scientist can do, you know..
     
  3. Vladdrac

    Vladdrac Chieftain

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    Nov 11, 2005
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    going to give this one a shot right now, I'll let you know how it goes
     
  4. Vladdrac

    Vladdrac Chieftain

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    Ok the first thing I noticed, and knowing this I am not sure I want to go any further....Is that the timespan increment is less, yes, but it seems that production for units has increased right along with the timespan increase. So it appears that I am just playing a game in slow motion.

    Does this mean that I will produce a unit in the same year that I would on normal speed? And it would just mean more turns to get to that production?

    If this is the case I don't see any advantage to it, other than you get to move units around more.

    Or maybe I am overlooking something
     
  5. buey

    buey Chieftain

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    Junuxx, the science bonus of an Academy is normally 50%, which can be HUGE in gaining a long term science advantage. I'm simply trying to prevent that from throwing the balance off. If you choose to have a scientist discover a tech (though he'll only contribute to part of it), you're giving up the chance to accelerate long term research. I think it's still a reasonable trade-off.

    Vladdrac, the only rates that were increased in proportion to the turn increase are growth (300) and tech (350). The remaining values were set to 250, which has allowed me to build some very big armies. I've thought about reducing the unit production value even further, but first I think I need to find a way of preventing the war-like AI's from mass-producing themselves into bankruptcy.

    My specific goal in creating this mod is more time to play in each era, more warring, more city building. Units, buildings, projects, wonders, tile improvements, and great people production are all FASTER relative to the game's length than normal.
     
  6. Junuxx

    Junuxx Emperor

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    A super scientist will also give a lasting benefit, and with your downgrade of the academy, the super scientist will often outproduce an academy.
     
  7. buey

    buey Chieftain

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    Hmmm... good point. Perhaps I should just increase the rate to 20%. Thoughts?
     
  8. Vladdrac

    Vladdrac Chieftain

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    Ok I just wanted to be sure before I played a full game, sounds good to me ;)
     
  9. john0452

    john0452 Chieftain

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    Dec 16, 2005
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    Melbourne
    Looks good buey, do you ming if I include it in my mod ? :)
     
  10. buey

    buey Chieftain

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    Sure, go right ahead.
     
  11. Marquez

    Marquez Chieftain

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    I think I'll give it a try. I assume you extract it into the MODS folder? I will try and give you feedback when I get a chance.
     
  12. Joaorv

    Joaorv Chieftain

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    Buey, good effort the game realy needs a mod like this!

    But if you'll allow me some criticism I gave it a try and I think you kinda just made it slow motion the gap between research cost and building/unit cost needs to be widen, I think you got it right with the research but you made the buildings/units too slow to build. I sugest using about normal game speed costs for those.

    This way we can realy "live" each era, unlike in the "vanila" version where you already got infantry before you even had time to build musketmen let alone wage a war with them. I think that's what you are trying to fix and its a good start but you kinda just made the game slow motion.

    Good start :)
     
  13. buey

    buey Chieftain

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    Hmmm... well, I suppose I could let you build even more units and buildings, but I'd have to adjust the techs a bit more to compensate... problem is, I've already run into the situation where my cities are simply out of stuff to do. I'm trying to achieve a more fulfilling experience within the confines of the game's original set of buildings, units, wonders, etc.

    To decrease the build times even further would just let you get every building available in every city at a faster rate, leaving them with nothing to do until you research another tech. I figure the only solution to that is spreading the benefits out over more buildings. That way you'd be creating buildings at about the same rate as normal, but there'd be enough of them to keep you busy all the time.

    I could probably decrease the unit build rate a bit, though. Right now the AI's don't seem to be screwing up their economies on unit production so it looks like I've still got some room for change there. Personally I already have no trouble building huge armies long before the units become obsolete, but I do want this to work with as many different play styles as possible.

    I'll tweak some build rates, toss another version up on the forums, and see how it plays.

    What I really need to find out is how the game plays in the later eras for different people with different playing styles. Right now I'm pretty far ahead of the curve on techs, but I also have a LOT of cities thanks to the extra time for conquest. Fortunately, the AI's aren't too far behind me (on Prince difficulty). I was expecting them to do much worse with the slower tech rate but I think they could use a boost.

    EDIT: Ok, new version's up! Give it a shot.
     
  14. DavieM

    DavieM Chieftain

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    Dec 20, 2005
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    I only ever play on your speed, Buey, and with version two you have fixed the only two complaints I had. Just wanted to say thanks, and to humbly ask that you keep up the good work!
     
  15. Joaorv

    Joaorv Chieftain

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    Thanks for the feed back buey.

    Do you chop rush? maybe i go too much for the cottages/ finances and dont save enough forest to boost production. I'm gona give your version two a try right now.

    Cheers.
     
  16. buey

    buey Chieftain

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    I usually play on huge maps with a tropical climate, so there's always stuff to chop and room to expand. Therefore yeah, I tend to cut a lot of trees, but not so many I won't have plenty left over for production.

    Then again, to go aggressively for commerce is to sacrifice production, so you probably produce slower than I do anyway. Just another example of how different playing styles help me balance the mod. So thanks for the input!

    On a side note, I've found it's good to specialize your cities for production or commerce. Let the production cities produce units, and keep the commerce cities working on buildings and wonders. Seems faster than having every city balanced for either.
     
  17. Tommy1234567890

    Tommy1234567890 Warlord

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    Argentina
    well this is useless now cuz patch 1.52 has a marathon game. try making it longer than that
     

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