[MOD] Civics 'n' Stuff

[Dryhad]

But as I said, an atheist state without a leader cult is not historically realistic.

It's not without it. It's just not mentioned. The category is "religion". The religious aspect is all that is mentioned.

One could as well have civics like "Rule of the Shoeshiners" or "Apple-peel Currency".

There's a very good reason why this analogy is not apt. Those two examples seem ridiculous because they are too specific. Your complaint about atheist state appears to be closer to it not being specific enough.

How about an atheist state takes away happy from churches, yet adds happy to theater and other secular entertainment facilities?

Two reasons: Balance and simplicity.

Regarding the latter, most civic mods on the market add a hundred and one effects to every civic to make them more realistic. That's not an approach I'd like to take here. I feel it defeats the purpose of the civic system. I believe I mentioned earlier that the culture penalty was a relatively recent addition. I didn't want to include too many effects, three tops (depending on how you define a separate effect), and most of those would be drawbacks in the case of Atheist State.

That of course brings me to balance. I've got Atheist State in a position where it works, and considering the amount of effort that it took to get there and I am therefore loathe to change it. That said, basing it on buildings seems a fair idea, and I will test it for balance.

 

[Optimizer]

It's not without it. It's just not mentioned. The category is "religion". The religious aspect is all that is mentioned.

Why not call it "Leader Cult" then? And why a science bonus?

 

[Dryhad]

Why not call it "Leader Cult" then?

Because it's not a leader cult, it's a nation in which religion is banned. It might be a leader cult, but it doesn't have to be. See?

And why a science bonus?

Just the best idea I could come up with. Do you have a suggestion (bearing in mind that it's not a Leader Cult, it's just religion being banned)?

 

[Optimizer]

Let us go through this again...

A civic called "Atheist State" either represents a government which bans all kinds of belief in the supernatural, or a government which replaces all kinds of belief with worship of a political leader, the state itself or a special cause. The difference is vast.

If the civic represents a purely atheist state, it is just as incredible as the examples I gave above - there has never been any civilization with no room for belief in the supernatural, and there could never have been. If there has been, tell me about it.

If the civic represents a leader cult, it should be named "leader cult" and have the properties of one.

 

[Dryhad]

A civic called "Atheist State" either represents a government which bans all kinds of belief in the supernatural, or a government which replaces all kinds of belief with worship of a political leader, the state itself or a special cause. The difference is vast.

How so? In both cases religion is banned. Do you deny that much?

If the civic represents a purely atheist state, it is just as incredible as the examples I gave above - there has never been any civilization with no room for belief in the supernatural, and there could never have been. If there has been, tell me about it.

Banning religion is not the same as having no room for the supernatural. Many drugs are banned in our society, yet people still partake of them illegally. You are expecting unreasonable things from the government of an atheist state, and it shouldn't be surprising when no real nation conforms to your view. Have there, or have there not, been states in the past and present wherin religious practice is banned, at least officially?

If the civic represents a leader cult, it should be named "leader cult" and have the properties of one.

That's fine, but it doesn't. It represents religion being banned. A leader cult, as far as I'm concerned, is not the domain of the religion category. It does not necessarily have to replace religion, and therefore the civics system cannot place them in opposing positions.

Now could we please discuss something other than Atheist State? I did put other things in my mod, you know .

 

[rogue131]

when will someone make a "1984" mod, that would be awesome to be either Oceania, Eastasia, or Eurasia. Imagine the fun of maintaining a perptual war with either side and also oppressing your people at the same time.

 

[Norbert]

I like Oligarchy, the rest are pretty good until the atheist state. While opinions may differ, I doubt Atheist states are inherently without culture, tolitarian states tend to be, but look at Czechoslovakia, over half of the population there doesn't go to church and they're doing fine. Atheist states should reduce one happy, but culture I believe should remain unfettered. If there is no church for people to sing in the choir, they could form a rock band.

Not to go off-topic, but to say that totalitarian societies lack culture is counter-historical. What they lose in free speech and art, they have made up for in architechture (spelling), classical music, unusual aesthetic outlooks, etc...and regardless of the imagined impact of an atheist state in real life, religion is designed to have an impact on culture in Civ. Perhaps, like state properties effects on civics, state atheism should have that effect on religions? All effects of religions go away in exchange for the benefits of the civic: if at any time, the civic goes away, any religious effects there previously should return.

 

[civconquerer627]

i always thought that atheism is to religion as anarchy is to government, its not a religion, its a lack of one, not rlly sure if having atheism as a religion makes sense

 

[Shichiaikan]

Worth noting also... you may want to consider changing Atheist altogether to Agnostic Society. "True" Atheists are actually a massive minority in the realm of non-believers world-wide. Agnostics are far more common, as most humans will allow for the possibility of things they don't understand.

I do agree though that an Atheist/Agnostic society would not have a change in culture, they simply derive it from different areas (arts, literature, etc). Definitely more of a focus on sciences and commerce though.

 

[Dryhad]

i always thought that atheism is to religion as anarchy is to government, its not a religion, its a lack of one, not rlly sure if having atheism as a religion makes sense

Which is why it's not a religion, it's a civic. And it's not strictly atheism, it's state atheism. Which leads me to...

Worth noting also... you may want to consider changing Atheist altogether to Agnostic Society. "True" Atheists are actually a massive minority in the realm of non-believers world-wide. Agnostics are far more common, as most humans will allow for the possibility of things they don't understand.

It's not Atheist Society, it's Atheist State. Civics are not society. Civics are government. This is a government that bans religion, which has happened historically and is perfectly conceivable of happening.

I do agree though that an Atheist/Agnostic society would not have a change in culture, they simply derive it from different areas (arts, literature, etc). Definitely more of a focus on sciences and commerce though.

I'll tell you what I was told that prompted me to make this mod. "If you don't like the way my mod handles atheism, make your own mod". That goes for everyone. If you think you could do better, be my guest. My version is balanced and reasonably accurate for my purposes. If you want Saladin to become an atheist or don't understand what I mean by "Atheist State", you're more than welcome to make your own mod. I apologise if I sound harsh, but there is more to this mod that just a single civic and it would be nice if someone mentioned at least one other element of it.

Though while I'm posting here for the first time in almost a year, I might as well get around to posting a Warlords version of the mod (no BtS yet, sorry. Try next September )

It can be found here. It adds all the same things the vanilla version adds, and also changes Augustus's favourite civic to Oligarchy as a special, Warlords only, benefit .

 

[lord_graywolfe]

first off sorry to be dragging out an older mod

just to let you know Dryhad i am currently testing this in my BtS mod to see if it works out for me and so far i have had no issues with it. that may change as i work my way through the game though.

i decided to try yours because out of all the civic change mods and ideas ive seen out there yours is the simplist and most reasonable. a couple of them may be a bit to powerfu like thought control that seems to combine heritary rule and parts of police state. but all in all very well balanced. i like that you could balance out the culture loss from Atheist with Cybernetic.

i am changing a few of the buttons you used for the new civics just so there are not as many repeats.

also a suggestion, with the Atheist civic you may want to consider adding in the inqusistion (spelling) mod or at least the inquisitors to remove religons from the cities. being able to generate free inquistor units in place of a science bonus, its just a thought

im also considering moving thought control over to goverment and taking Police state renaming it martial law and moving it to legal.

 

[Dryhad]

First of all, while I'm here, here's a link to Civics n Stuff for BtS, for those of you who missed it.

i decided to try yours because out of all the civic change mods and ideas ive seen out there yours is the simplist and most reasonable.

Thank you, that was my intention. As I said before, I feel that cramming too many effects in defeats the point of the civics system, so I like to go for the minimalist approach.

a couple of them may be a bit to powerfu like thought control that seems to combine heritary rule and parts of police state.

Possibly, but I figured it comes late enough in the game that it doesn't matter. I mean, consider Cybernetic, which would be ludicrously overpowered if it came too early, is perhaps underpowered thanks to its tech requirement.

Nevertheless, with BtS it might be good to move Thought Control to a more Espionage oriented purpose rather than simply mixing together other warmonger civics.

i am changing a few of the buttons you used for the new civics just so there are not as many repeats.

I'd love to see your changes.

also a suggestion, with the Atheist civic you may want to consider adding in the inqusistion (spelling) mod or at least the inquisitors to remove religons from the cities. being able to generate free inquistor units in place of a science bonus, its just a thought

That's a good idea, I'll consider it. It would help distance Atheist State from Free Religion, making it more independently balancable.

im also considering moving thought control over to goverment and taking Police state renaming it martial law and moving it to legal.

From a flavour point of view, I actually think that for all it's faults, Police State makes more sense as government than Thought Control. Unless you're speaking mechanically and are going to change Thought Control to something else?

 

[lord_graywolfe]

hmmm perhaps your right about thought control being better where its at but ive always thought that police state, and i am going to rename that to martial law, was less goverment and more a legal action taken by the goverment and i cant think of anything else to move over to goverment from legal to balance it out.

as to the buttons i just decided to use the bionces tech button for cybernetics and the cybernetics button for thought control. they are still being used twice in the game but only once in the civics. and i just thought they looked more the part for those civics. with the more future techs ive added i will probally put thought control in cybernetics tech and atheist in genetics. one of the things i liked is that most of them do come late in the game since i was adding more to the end. of course that will just reinforce your suggestion that thought control is late enough in the game not to be to powerful and throw it out of balance

thanks for the link to a BtS version cause after adding it and running it for a bit i did get some errors. right now im running with out the civic changes to make sure its not a problem in my mod before i try and work them in again.

 

[bcr1776]

Interesting discussion re atheism. However....... A civilization does not become unhappy (or happy) by being religious or not religious. I submit N. Ireland as a prime example. So religious that no one is happy!
It is also not whether an individual in a atheistic society is an atheist but rather whether or not the society as a whole is atheistic. This means that as you change from a religious society to an atheistic one you will likely have an awful lot of unhappiness. The effects (but not the reality) of this can be countered to a large degree by also adopting a strong police state and having a charismatic leader. Food for thought perhaps? Linking civics to each other as co-requisites and requiring a certain kind of leader trait may be a new twist to add to a mod.
Love to discuss this further.

 

[bcr1776]

I don't agree much with the discussion on culture. Culture as art is certainly present in societies purporting to be atheistic, as it is in theocracies and autocracies. Remember, culture like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so while the 'The Madonna and Child' might be considered reactionary and not cultural, a portrait of Madonna might well be.

 

[Dryhad]

Interesting discussion re atheism. However....... A civilization does not become unhappy (or happy) by being religious or not religious. I submit N. Ireland as a prime example. So religious that no one is happy!

Yes. Clearly with this one simple XML mod I am going to fix this gaping error on Firaxis's part, which nobody has ever thought to question before now and nobody will in the future. Linking religion and happiness is totally inaccurate and I should have amended it originally.

It is also not whether an individual in a atheistic society is an atheist but rather whether or not the society as a whole is atheistic.

No, it doesn't represent either of those things, and you all really should understand that by now. Religion is banned. That is all!

This means that as you change from a religious society to an atheistic one you will likely have an awful lot of unhappiness. The effects (but not the reality) of this can be countered to a large degree by also adopting a strong police state and having a charismatic leader. Food for thought perhaps? Linking civics to each other as co-requisites and requiring a certain kind of leader trait may be a new twist to add to a mod.

Is there some part of "minimalist" you do not understand? I am not of the opinion that each civic should have a thousand and one effects and sub-clauses.

Love to discuss this further.

And I would very much not. Please please PLEASE take lord_graywolfe's wonderful example and discuss at least one other aspect of this mod thank you.

I don't agree much with the discussion on culture. Culture as art is certainly present in societies purporting to be atheistic, as it is in theocracies and autocracies. Remember, culture like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so while the 'The Madonna and Child' might be considered reactionary and not cultural, a portrait of Madonna might well be.

Oh for the love of... Make your own damn mod! You see how difficult it is to balance this! Or don't, if you prefer. I'm sure Saladin as an atheist is much more flavourful than a reduction in culture

 

[lord_graywolfe]

i have added your mod to mine by the way and it seems to be working great so far. i did make a couple of changes just for myself. like i said before i changed police state to martial law and put it under legal. i changed thought control to Techno-Republic, im not crazy about the name but i havnt come up with a better one yet lol,removed the bonus to unit experiance and placed it under goverment. it is a goverment not run by machines but one that uses them almost exclusivly. examples, instead of congress meeting they all talk via computer video chats, trafic tickets are handled by cameras and computers, basicly people dont interact personally as much but rather through machines. i feel this works well with the -50% war weariness ass more drones and remote weapons are used and the happiness for units in the city due to having real people there . i used the robotics button for this tech, im still playing around with the atheist button right now im using a future tech button of space flight, cybernetics i used the cybernetics tech button. like i said just little changes for myself . it gives me some new civics for late game now

 

[bcr1776]

Sheesh Dryhad you might consider upping your meds. I was not attacking you personally or I would have PM'd you. This is a discussion thread and my comments were meant to be just that.

BTW, what part of minimalist don't you understand? You are using the term incorrectly. You are, after all adding something to a modification of a mod already added to an expansion of a program. Minimalist my a..!

 

[Dryhad]

Sheesh Dryhad you might consider upping your meds.

Sorry. But really, read the thread. I thought I made myself abundantly clear the last ten times people made those baseless arguments about atheist state.

I was not attacking you personally or I would have PM'd you.

I didn't think you were. I thought you were making a comment about my mod which lacks both understanding of my intention and understanding of basic game balance. And furthermore, understanding of what I'm willing to change.

This is a discussion thread and my comments were meant to be just that.

It is not a discussion I wish to continue! Read any of my posts in this thread and you will see me say that! Even if atheist state were anything like what those who deride it think it is (and it isn't) it still isn't the only thing in this mod. Reading this thread, you'd never know that. You'd think it was entirely atheist state, maybe with a few other (but utterly trivial) extras. Atheist state has at least 4 other parts of the mod exactly as important as it, yet it has dominated 90% of this discussion thread! And not even for a very good reason, either, this "discussion" is born of misunderstanding!

BTW, what part of minimalist don't you understand? You are using the term incorrectly. You are, after all adding something to a modification of a mod already added to an expansion of a program. Minimalist my a..!

Minimalist: a person who favors a moderate approach to the achievement of a set of goals or who holds minimal expectations for the success of a program. (from dictionary.com)

That sounds about right. This is a moderate approach to the achievement of a set of goals (modding the civics). I'm not going to add a thousand and one effects to atheist state just because you don't think it's flavourful.

 

[Crezth]

Hey everybody, I have a few ideas regarding the civics. First of all I like the ideas you have here - I mean, they're original and they widen the civic spread nicely. However there are a few issues concerning balance for the civics, as well as execution.

First of all, I'm confused about the thematics for Oligarchy. Why extra food and gold? Actually technically Oligarchies don't function any different from Monarchies, except they are far more corrupt.

Allow me to suggest a kind of City States approach - decentralized government. You might want to change the name, but what you'd get was increased maintenance from number of cities, but a little extra science and culture, with No Upkeep. Naturally this has no bearing on the civic itself, but I guess it's ok - even if it doesn't make much sense.

Thought control is a little weird, but it gives a lot of bonuses. I'm shocked, really. Either tone it down or make a Super-High Upkeep to balance it.

Cybernetic should be high upkeep. It seems a little powerful, but then one recalls the unhappiness penalty from non-Emancipation. However, when you have civics like Thought Control and Hereditary Rule, then that point is rendered moot. I don't see why at all it should give +100% culture, and I kind of understand the +100% science*.

*This is actually a much greater bonus than you might think.

Corporatism - I mean, the idea of corporatism - seems a little biased. It's kind of like feudalism thematically, but I digress. In practice you've balanced it best of all your new civics, as it is kind of the polar opposite to Environmentalism. But as of BTS Environmentalism is the superior economic civic, so to give Corporatism a little more leverage I'd suggest a large decrease of corporate maintenance, like -50% or -75%.

Atheist State is a great idea, and I kind of like how you did it. It's got some good designs, HOWEVER, it doesn't seem to me like it's at all worth it. I mean, there's no way to get rid of religions, so you get all the blazing unhappiness plus the major culture vacuum for - for what? - a measly +25% science. It's rather jarring to see you make such an unbalanced civic as Cybernetics and then counter it with a civic which I would never want to have. Free Religion gives approximately the same bonuses, with the all-important happiness. I suggest you zap the -50% culture, because first of all that is an unbased bias, and second of all it makes the civic wholly worthless.

On the whole I like the ideas though.