[MOD] NEW BALANCE for Warlords (was slower tech + other changes mod)


Dead weight
Aug 18, 2001
New Balance v3.2
18 Jan 07
by Peter Shafer
Works with Civ IV Warlords v2.08

This mod lengthens the game. TECHNOLOGIES drive the pace of the game- they come slower. You can mess with units more before the next tech obsoletes them. Other things are slowed down a too: city growth, etc... proportional better than the vanilla EPIC/MARATHON game.

***IMPORTANT*** MARATHON (1170 turns) speed is SHORTER than EPIC (1865 turns) AND NEW BALANCE (1196 turns) speed, as I have not mooded that speed. Again, the speed this mod is DESIGNED for is NEW BALANCE- make SURE YOU SELECT IT!

UNZIP to the civ4\warlords\mods\ folder like any other mod. So you should have a "New Balance" folder right under your MODS folder in your main CIV directory.

The file is at:

The readme:
Spoiler :

v3.2 This one removes the Unitstat mod, but keeps Sevopedia- Unitstats caused a CTD consistently. Sorry.

With removal of Unitstat mod, but keeping in Sevopedia, the CTD during Industrial times apepars to be gone. Sorry, but can't keep a change in if it disallows ever finishing a game.

v3.1 This one adds in the updated Sevopedia AND unitstats (fun!).

Removed withdraw chance from Woodsman and lower level Guerilla as this made the promotion behave strangely. So only the patch v2.08 30% w/Guerilla is active. Took out the withdraw chance for Guerilla line of promotions; same reason, it didn't work; you could not get the promotion.

Merge with Sevopedia and Unitstats for this mod is working right. This was trick.y Grr...

Saladin is aggressive/protective. It makes for an interestingly more historical character. Fun to battle, but not so clued in economically.

v3.0 Mostly to make it compatible with v2.08 of the Warlords PATCH.
Added in all changes made by the Warlords 2.08 Patch, except where directly contradictopry to changes made by this mod.

Added +1XP Siege units when made in cities with a Castle. The +5 for Citadels is a lot, and I thought other civs could use a tiny bonus...

Shrines are not immune to nukes. Not sure why the patch made them immune. I'm open to hearing arguements for and against, but for now. They go up in smoke sometimes. Religious unrest might very likely follow destruction of a civilization by nukes...

Military Academy +33% production, lowered from 50%. (Which is still higher than the 25% it was prior to the patch.

Woodsmen Promotion line gains +5% and +20% withdrawel.

Guerilla level 2 has 15% withdraw chance.

Trebuchet cost increased to 70. This is up from 60.

Mall increased to +8% commerce. Comemrce values in this mod are reduced in general, and +20% for malls is way too much money floating around in the game. So it's increased from a 5 (previous level in this mod) to an 8 percent bonus.

Leadership continues to give +50% XP. The human player is the only exploiter of these types of bonuses. +100% is too much in favor of the human for my taste. Stays at original 50%.

Commando promotion requires Combat 3, not Combat 4 now. So you'll see this a bit more often.

Wine now provides happiness (if you have it) at Pottery too, don't have to wait until Monarchy.

v2.3b balance changes mostly
Fixed exploit posible with removing jungles by means of techs earlier than Biology. Can still use resources earlier, though.

Laboratories with electricity, not computers now. But first civ to tech Computers gets the free engineer now, rather than that happening at fusion.

Pasture allowed at Gunpowder rather than with Biology, so earlier, just in case some pigs show up in your jungles.

I wanted it so that the first person to build the Manhatten Project had some sort of advantage. BUt this is impossible without SDK modification. So I'm settling on the next best thing. The FIRST civ to discover FISSION gets 1 free ICBM. Eventually the building of the Manhatten Project will make nukes possible for everyone.

v2.3a balance changes mostly
ICBM select sound is shorter.

SEALS no longer board Submarines. It was pointed out that this was a wee bit too powerful for sneak attacks.

FRIGATES/IRONCLADS granted 5% bombard. If the AI abuses this, it may be revoked.


New air unit range graphic works now in LOW RESOLUTION TEXTURE mode too. No more cluttered squares when you select an air unit.

Dates fixed for all game speeds. However I did a superior job of this for the NEW BALANCE game speed, which is to say I did an INFERIOR job of this for other game speeds. :) NEW BALANCE is the speed the game is recommended to be played at with this mod. I don't spend hours and hours fine tuning those game years to match tech advance, like I have at NEW BALANCE speed. Word.

Better sounds for:
SUBMARINE: I edited this sound myself... proud of it. The sheep bleeting sound of the sub when you Zzz'ed it drove me NUTS... so now its a nice sonar sound.

ICBM select... I missed the air raid siren sounds... now it's back in a big way. I made this sound too...

IF I end up adding a lot more sounds or something (I DOUBT I ever will.. these were just some that drove me NUTS since CivIV came out...) I'll break them off as an optional download to save people on dialup some time.

Adopted Sevopedia.. It's integrated into the mod. The layout and functionality of his pedia kicks butt. 'Nuff said.

BUNKER moved back to ELECTRICITY (earlier). Air power is strong enough... some defense is justified.

Conscription Anger reduced to 1 from 3:
Wow, big change... but... Nationhood Civic needed this, AND ANGER is a bit more prevelent in this mod, so this stood to be reduced.

(FIX) Graphical glitch: Unit formations with newly introduced flavor units from v2.2.

(FIX) Warlords bug where Guerrilla 1 was not available to Melee units, but Guerilla 2 & 3 were...(?)

MINING in jungles with GUNPOWDER
This moves two of these up significantly but still postpones them from Vaniulla civ.

Great General first threshold lowered. Increase of XP required after that increases more slowly. The reasoning is that with GP's you continually accelerate your generation of points toward them (adding wonders, etc...) at a very rapid pace... Your military, on the other hand, doesn't consistently generate more xp at quite the same pace. Yes, it gets larger and you tend to generate more in the endgame, but not at quite the pace vanilla was going at. So it's lowered a bit to generate GGs at a pace that more closely matches GP rate.


Massive graphics additions using flavor units. I stole all the new graphics units from the Warlords scenarios that I liked and/or could fit in. Then I plugged them into the Main Game, so now Chinese Swordsman look like... *gasp* Chinese Swordsman! Mongol Knights look... well, like knights not from Europe and Celtic chariots no longer look like they are from EGYPT! Chinese Triremes are Chinese in flavor, etc... NO STATS have been changed, and each civ has ONLY it's single UU as per the NORMAL game, but the graphics look shiny now! I really like the way this looks... no new graphics added, just re-referenced the unit graphics to art files that already existed. The world looks a lot more diverse up to the middle ages now!

Non-State Religions are -1 Unhappiness:
This is counterbalanced by building temples to those religions, obviously. This changes religion into a zero-sum game *except* for the state religion you choose, or the freedom of religion civic. The other way of gaining +1 is with incense and should you build the large religious building associated with each religion when you've built 5 temples to that religion (A cathedral, for example). Overall, this means larger cities with lots of religions in them have a potential for lots of civic unrest, should you choose not to manage them. You need to think a little more now about how to manage religion in your empire. Before this change, I found I never needed to build the other religious temples as religion was always a positive influence on a city, no matter what... this just doesn't follow from history. Finally, I think I have the religion change I've been looking for in my mod! Something simple but which affects gameplay somewhat profoundly, as religion should.

(ADD) Barbarians units now possible: Catapult, Cannon, Infantry, caraval (Frigate was already theoretically possible, so I didn't have to activate that one).

(CHANGE) Bombardier: +25% vs. Musketman, +10% City Attack, +10 cost. Also:

(CHANGE) Musketmen (and UU's based on them): +1 STR to 10. This was a hard call, but I have to admit they feel underpowered in game after game I've played. I don't think of them as uberunits, I know they are less effectual gunpowder units in history and it took hundreds of years to get gunpowder right... but in the *game* they are a little too close to being White Elephants... so a little more STR to them.

Major date changes. Begin game at 10,000 BC with 250 year advances. This more accurately reflects when Pottery/Hunting/Agriculture and stuff like that was first used, as far as we know. The years quickly (at 4000 BC) begin to flow the way you expect. :)

BIG changes to CIVICS. Look at the table in the game. Each change has its game reasons, all of them I try to rationalize through what might actually happen in each system... for example Radio Towers bring unhappiness in Caste system due to spreading media that show the inequalities, or, another example, Courts bring -1 unhappiness in FREE MARKETS due to the stifling effect laws have on truly "free" markets (OK this one's a bit tongue in cheek, but with an extra trade route, there needed to be a balance of some sort). At any rate, I expand the advantages AND disadvantages here and there to further differentiate the Civics. It plays a lot more fun for me now, and commands a real choice at times.

Units from Infantry onward are more expensive (about 25% more). What this amounts to (from my testing) is that you cannot field as many of them as quickly as before, but you never needed to as they are still hugely effective versus units of the previous era. So, what happens is you won't have massess and masses of units clogging up the late game. That's all. I noticed that in ALL my games I end up with armies coming out of my ears by the late game... in a proportion that was just not... well it made the late game a mess. Obviously not a mod for unit whores. ;)

Globe theater cheaper. Its effect is limited and doesn't justify that many hammers.

Artillery: Railroad + (Rifling or Physics)
So artillery pushed back just a little...

Bomb Shelter (anti-nuke) with Mass Media (so later):
No one gets all hyped up to build their backyard shelter unless there's mass media, and no one gets the message before it's too late to get INTO it once it's built, without Mass Media. And besides... this building came WAY TOO EARLY in my opinion for nukes to have as serious of consequences as I think they ought to have.

Horse resource is +1 coin.
Horses are still not influencing history the way I like so I upped them here. They are a pack animal like no other and allow distribution of goods across your nation better than any other method other than rivers. An abundance of them in your culture is a good thing.

Grenadiers with Rifling and Chemistry:
They usually occur hundreds of years before Rifleman in most games. Uh... no. So now they need Chemistry and Rifling. You can still get them at the same time as Rifleman now, but you'll have rifleman at the same time at least... ALSO this has the effect of keeping Musketmen in the game longer as you can't beeline in one-tech to a superior unit.

Cannon Moved back to Chemistry + Replaceable Parts, and a little more costly.
So they'll occur a little later with slightly less numbers. I'm trying to eke out a Musketmen/mixed medieval age (rennaisance age?), plus room needed to be made for the Trebuchet.

Trireme upgrades to Frigate only not Caraval. Must build Caravals from scratch in order to begin the Age of Exploration...

Caraval upgrades to Frigate ONLY, not submarine...

Changed artwork for Airplane ranges. The big square box was cluttered and ugly... so now it's a nice, soft, open circle... Ahhh... much easier on the eyes.

Geat People: All their special abilities are upped by 25% or so, but Golden Ages are upped in length by 50% to make those more appealing (and this is what the AI uses a lot anyway).

Trebuchet reduced to 75% City Attack. Price returned to original 60 hammers.

Event message pop-ups (those little icons that pop up that you can click on to take you to the site) last much longer now so there's no huge rush to click on them in order to locate events you want to check out.

Internet at Mass Media (earlier).

Culture level increases defenses more slowly: 10, 30, 50, 70 and finally 100 at Legendary. So city walls are more helpful early on. This is an old change I never documented.

Frigate and Ironclad: No Bombard. This is something that takes a lot more power than they had- I reserve this function for more modern navies. Besides, it really slows the game down needlessly in war. The AI spams them to no real effect.

Drydocks moved earlier to Construction (requires Sailing too though).

Catapult moved earlier to Mathematics (requires Bronze working too though).

Map revelation from goody hut reveals more.

Works with WARLORDS retail version 1.0 (This was the biggest effort- loads of changes to format of various xml files)

All ships +1 speed from Vanilla, except Caraval/Ironclad +2, except workboat (stays at 2).

Workboat cheaper.

Spy mission cheaper now, except the sabotage one. But now spies cost 1 extra support.

AI no longer gets 10 free production at start of game (this is an old change I never documented).

Added Arctic/Desert combat promotions.

Added base Withdraw chance to some mechanized units. increased Cavalry unit withdraw chances in general. These units were too underpowered for historically how powerful horses make civilizations.

Archer units gained +20% and +10% (when mounted) versus Axemen when attacking. The AXEMAN unit has always made swordsmen worthless, now there is a further reason why you might choose swords men.

Increased graphic size of Spies, CA, BB, Workers slightly.

Decreased WORKER figures from 2 to 1.

Decreased MG figures from 3 to 2.

Added first strike chance to Explorers and Scouts (they're sort of ambushy units). Explorer STR=5 (was 4).

GALLEY and Trireme cost 25 (was 30). The economy needs them cheaper for them to appear in the right numbers, IMO.

Too many to list here. Check them out IN GAME. They are different now.

Commerce buildings reduced in effect, generally: BANK provides 40% commerce bonus, Market 20% (was 25%). Etc...

Knowledge buildings reduced similarly to commerce buildings.

Reworked date advances s to better match technology pace of game.

Scaled back to 33% the bonus Industrial gets for making wonders.

FORGE costs 100 not 120

ALL SWORD UNITS gain 25% DEFENSIVE bonus vs. ARCHER (not vs. longbows and x-bows, though).

CARRIERS carry 4 not 3 units, are slightly cheaper (the real cost is the planes).

KNIGHTS/MACEMEN moved to slightly different research track.

SUBMARINES gain 25% attack versus TRANSPORTS. Slightly cheaper too.

BATTLESHIPS slightly more costly.

UNITED NATIONS with FISSION (So a little earlier)

Radio Towers with RADIO

OIL is more clumpy in distribution:
A few nations now will tend to control it- and it's easier to take it militarily- makes it more strategic I think.


DESERT COMBAT and ARCTIC COMBAT: +25% defense in terrains, plus double movement in those terrains. Requires Combat I first.

U.S.A flag changed to Betsey Ross style.

I changed this back from Steam power for many reasons. Steam Power is a powerful enough tech. The REAL reason the US could build the Panama canal wasn;'t steam power alone, it was defeating the mosquitoes... biology. And lastly because this line of reasearch (butter) needed a boost versus the other line (guns). No more debate on this, this is my mod, I make it how I want to play the game. if you don't like this, change it back yourself. Anyway, further reasoning: Jungles are FIERCE scary DANGEROUS places, damnit! It was medicine that allowed the panama canal clearing of jungle, no amount of slaves dieing in great numbers could do it! So jungles stay on the map until the 1800's or so... nice.

Note that you CAN build ROADS, CAMPS and PLANTATIONS and MINES and such in JUNGLE with GUNPOWDER which is much earlier than MEDICINE. This is to help get those trade items (Ivory and Bananas) into the game a little earlier than medicine, and to simulate that Conquistadors used the natives to do the work by dominating with guns and forcing them into slavery.

COTTAGES built with MONARCHY (was Pottery):
The economy heats up too fast too early otherwise. I figure you need a slighty betetr knowledge of civics before you have suburbs. This change is hard to deal with if you're used to having loads of $$ in the game- you will need to balance your economy much more carefully now.

Why? Well, duh!

Why? Because waiting until COMMUNISM SUCKS.... and besides the plans for textile mills were stolen by "spies" in real life back in the 1700's or so... I figure an earlier tech should get you spies.

SCOTLAND YARD and spies are cheaper:
Spies need to be earlier in the game...

MAP TRADING with ASTRONOMY not with paper:
Because I want larger black spots on the map a little longer... give my sailing ships something to DO!

TECH TRADING with GUILDS not with Alphabet:
I think this makes sense to some degreee, plus tech whoring early in the game can ruin it.

GREAT LIBRARY with ALPHABET not literature:
Literature is NOT what was in the great library in real life- it was scientific texts and philosophy, this wonder can be one tech earlier.

DRY DOCKS with ENGINEERING (was steel):
Shipbuilding is an ancient art really, and the concept of dry docks goes back to ancient Greece and the Cartheginians... so we'll compromise- this allows more sailing ships to enter the game if you want to focus that way.

CARAVAL carries TWO special units:
As they were, even with more time to use them, the Age of Discovery wasn't quite as fun as it ought to have been when I played TERRA maps... so I let the caravel be a little more effective at delivering Conquistadores (Explorers and Missionaries if you will). :)

CANNONS require GUNPOWDER + Printing Press (was steel + gunpowder):
This unit came WAY too late in the game, in my opinion- about 1 tech away from ARTILLERY! So now it can occur in the gunpowder age, but not instantly with gunpowder, you need to have researched the other mechanical branch a little too.

AMBUSH PROMOTION not available until you develop STEEL

FORBIDDEN PALACE, CITY WALLS, and CASTLE are cheaper to build.

PAPER needed for Beaurocracy (was civil service- so it's one tech later).

SHEEP: +1 food, prod. and trade w/pasture (was +2,0,+1).

WHALE: +1 Prod and food as base tile. (was +1 food)

CAVALRY upgrades to Tank OR Gunship: I've no idea why cavalry to gunships was in the vanilla game since all the worlds cavalry was usually dead in the intervening 100 years that tanks and artillery ruled the lands... so, now human and AI have a choice.

CASTLE with CONSTRUCTION (was engineering): so it's earlier

Reworked TECH REQUIREMENTS for FLIGHT, ARTILLERY, ROCKETRY, and COMBUSTION to make those a little harder to run for without supporting techs. FLIGHT was too easily skipped completely- I didn't like that for the space race.

MARKET is a -1 health building.
It brings in a lot of trade, people, and so disease (like the plague) so this needs to be represented somewhat in the game, IMO. (Besides I want something to slow city growth just a tad.)

Balanced start locations better at higher difficulties.

Units after Warrior and up to Musketmen are 5 prod. cheaper to produce. This has the effect of making the classical/Medieval age more populated and a bit more "lively."

Workshops come with METAL CASTING. (Earlier than vanilla)

AI HANDICAP is now truly much closer to EQUAL with the player on NOBLE difficulty.
AI HANDICAP at PRINCE is balanced a bit more in the AI's favor- with slightly grater Barbarian activity.

Observatory requires Astronomy and Liberalism (was just Astronomy)

Turned DOWN the volume when cities are selected (and only those city sounds), so it's not so overbearingly noisy when you're tweaking a city and you can still have your game volume up for the other sounds.


Brief note on this readme:
If I change something back to the way it was originally, I may note that in the readme as a regression in the current notes... or I may just delete the entry. Or both.

Credit to:
Zuul's mod for some promotion graphics. Cool looking.

Sevo for the kickin' pedia:
Good and quick work on getting this converted over.

I played a few games with it when warlords came out and most of the changes seem to flow well. I did just merge it with Rhye's 24 Civ Map and playing my first game on it (as the romans) on Prince.

Now that the python and SDK versions of some of the more popular mod files are coming out (Yay TheLopez) do you plan on merging them in yourself specifically

Dead Civ Scoreboard
Specialist Stacker
Cultural Influence

Again good work none the less a good mod, and the first conversion! :king: :goodjob:
Sure, TheLopez is releasing all his SDK/Python mods in to the File Database a quick search for warlords will give you any new ones that get put in.

Cultural Influence:
Specialist Stacker:
Dead Civ ScoreBoard
Customizable Domestic Advisor
Localized Starting Techs

But like I said, hit the File Database and search for warlords as there are a few new goodies out there, including some other mods I did not list and the Byzantium Civ from ARMA.
GREAT WORK here with your mod... especially with the civic changes.

Absolutely love the changes made to the tech requirements of many wonders and units. :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:
I like the civic changes you made but that -20% build speed for workers in the begining kinda sucks it makes it so every single improvement takes 8 turns to build and the speed at which you gain new techs early on kinda sucks too ... 14+ turns for every technology all you find yourself doing early on is skipping years while the game goes by 20 years at a time by 2000 BC you will only have like 2-3 techs and improvements

btw it works fine with v2.0.0.0 of warlords too
Ok folks. v2.1 is up after I playtested the c%$# out of v2.0 and found myself making changes as I played.

The biggest real changes involve: CIVICS (loads of changes taking advantage of new Warlords stuff), prince difficulty gives the AI some further breaks (but still not as many as vanilla civ).

The biggest cosmetic change: The dates, you begin in 10,000 BC, but don't worry, you will *quickly* get into 4000 BC as that age advances by 250 years each turn. I think I got the math right on these... this is always hard to balance...
Been using this mod since it came out on here, bout 3 days after Warlords did. Just had a few questions & ( hopefully ) some helpful input on your mod. Started a noble diff. game, 160x100 smartmap with 5 continents ( some fragments ) 17 rival civs on marathon speed. Saw on your original thread you designed your mod for new balance & epic speeds but honestly ( so far 1841 ) your mod is perfect for Marathon players too. Heres the questions & comments/suggestions....

? 1) Did you purposely take out the observitorys & Copernicus' Obsv? Im guessing it was to slow down research which is fne by me but was wandering if it was your mod or a bug in warlords.
? 2) Is there any way you would consider converting a better diplomatic realistic result mod in2 this eventually? Ive seen them on this forum but there only for original civ& havent been able 2 test them. Also I dont know how to use 2 mods or merge anything, it would be gr8ly appreciated. I cant stand how in Civ I can give a struggling Civ a tech or 2 & even a outpost city I dont want/cant maintain & no reaction whatsoever but negative 4 points for them being mad I traded with there enemies. Also shouldnt some of the minor negatives go away after time? This is a realism/balance mod afterall, I think thatd be a gr8 & vital addition.


1) Spies personally are 2 early. I do agree they belong alot earlier then vanilla civ but your mod makes it slightly to early. I admit its been cool seeing my horses pastures being sabotaged because Knights & now Calvary rule my continent but it seems a few techs to early....
2) On the subjects of Knights, they also seem slightly early. Not sure where else they could be placed un4tunatly but theres no real era of the swordsman/longbowman domination that happened in our world. Even on marathon, its not long b4 Knights rule all.
3) I read the discussion on this on the original mod pages but I must agree, not being able to clear a jungle until way late seriously hinders the AI. Not sure when it should be placed honestly but some ancient civs thrived in the jungle & if theres a way to make production & resource gathering much, much harder but possible in jungles, thatd be a huge improvement.

Regarding 2.1, cant wait to try it out next game but a few things concern me.....plz dun get offended, i appreciate the gr8 work put in2 this but its just some reccomendations/another persons point of view.

1) Grenadiers were also used on musketmen, it even says it in the info of the grenadier. Maybe itd seem more realistic if they had + 50 ATK to Musketmen also. What would be even better is giving them a bonus to attacking a city & maybe + 25% ATK Musketmen/Riflemen, seems more realistic & common sense to me.

2) Internet moved up seems wrong somehow....maybe with Fiber Optics? Unless it was already there.

3) No bombard for Frigates/Ironclad? 1st thing ive disagreed with on your mod. Maybe reducing them to 5% or upping the modern navy ships from 20% would be a way to go....

My game so far....

Because of this mod this has easily been the best Civ game Ive played ever. Been a fan since the 1st one way back in the day. Never really liked how a game could be finished in a day or 2, & the timeline being off or way off. Ive read on here from a few ppl & I agree a game should take alot more time 2 develop so u invest more in2 it. Just some ppls preferance tho....

Started out on a continent with 3 other civs, Persia, Egypt & Mali. Egypt invaded & hogged key land & resources early on & we had little skirmishes to the point we almost wiped out each other then I took the lead. Mali kept to themselves & didnt do much while Cyrus ( Persia ) dominated the world ( but no1 left the continent ) early & was at least 200 points ahead of the next civ by 1200 AD ( Germany, India trailing 100 after that ) & over 500 by 1450 & increasing by the year. Only key mistake they made was not converting to Confusianism as most of the other world powers had & I did. Luckily that kept every1 else out of our conflict. I was around 5th in the world in everything ( 500-1500's ) except my industry & trade was among elite & had alot of key resources ( Iron, Horses etc ). Egypt by then was my sworn enemy but was reduced to 3-4 cities & wanted no part of me, offered terms & a few years later vassaled to Cyrus. Mali did the same a few years later around 1520 & both were converted by Cyrus 2 Christian & I was forced to go 2 war before all 3 built up an army to dispose of me.The Egyptians & Mali had already spread out around some of my cities, stealin resources & it got worse as the war started. The war started out bad, luckily Persia was furthest away & couldnt get many troops out 2 me early on so I focused on Egypt & forced them down to 2 cities & in2 Capitulation under me. When that started happening Cyrus was givin alot of techs to the Mali & before they could build to many advanced units I took them down to there capital & they also wanted Capitulation under me around 1580. ( Both havent been military or world relevant since, both supply me with resources altho Mali still has mid of the world score & tech from Cyrus b4.) By then Cyrus's army was massive & he had Knights just slightly after me & we went at it hard in 1590. Easily the best 1 on 1 Civ war ever. By then my swordsman were level 4 at least city attackers & paired with my Knights I started taking Persin cities, would lose them but quickly get them back. By 1680 ( 1 turn = a year ) I had taken 8 major Persian cities & there capital & they were left with 3 cities & there new capital & offered terms even tho they despised me. Lots of money & a few techs & I let them have the west edge of the continent. After I slowly converted the new conquered cities the war had got my score up to around top 3 & have been a world power with Germany & India since. Cyrus ( almost positive, every other advanced country likes me ) has been sending spies & sabotoging my Horses starting around 1720 & Ive declared war again 10 years or so ago & am gonna reduce him to his last 2 cities on a small penisula, that should teach him. Confusiciam is keeping mostly every1 friendly to whoever has it ( 9 civs ) & for the 1st time in a civ game Ive gotten alot of defensive pacts & 1 or 2 other vasslage offers. Been a few very minor world skirmishes ( none that the home continent have been involved in ) but nothing close 2 the battle crazy unrealistic past Civs. Its currently 1841 ( 950+ turns, 17+ hours ) & the good old USA is #1, with Germany 200 points behind but my equal if not better militarily & #3 tech & India 100 behind them #1 in tech & 4th in power. 4 civs in the 200-400 range behind India. Rifleman, Grenadiers, Calvary & Cannon are still dominating the world as they should be. Im currently studying Physics, which all seems close to par with the real world timeline. A turn equaling a year has been going on a few 100 years now & this mod makes the game close to perfect on Marathon, if your into that. Everything seemed to happen around the right time, the ages, units like knights, riflemen, & even the techs gunpowder, steam power etc.

Only flaws ( most of which relate to smartmap )

1) 1 civ ( Russia ) started there capital in the jungle & has been of no consequence to the game, had only 3 cities w/ no war ever until Gandi of all ppl in 1 year/turn had them left with 1 city & russia Constipulated to them.

2) Another civ ( Japan ) started ona continent but had 1 square with water on all sides but 1 & a mountain blocking the way out lol. I had smartmap on mountains with no blocking but still. They have been dead last 4ever.

3) A little 2 much desert & jungle. Its on w/e the normal setting is.

Small complaints & 2 & 3 dont even relate 2 ur mod but are there any better options then smartmap & could you incorporate them with this mod for warlords?

Seriously tho, just minor gripes ( which mostly dont relate 2 this mod ) 4 a mod that has made Civ4 100% better in my opinion. Thanks again Dearmad & hope this feedback helps you & others who want to use it.
Very interesting. I didn't touch the Marathon speed settings (it takes me 3 days to finish a New Balance speed game!), but I see in the speed file they are not all flat across the board the way Firaxis did the other speeds. So, hm. You're basically playing with all the other changes other than general tech slowdown (there are a few specific ones).

1: Observatory is still in the game. Requires Astronomy/Liberalism

2: So far I'm fairly satisfied with the diplo results you get. It's harder to manipulate the AI into bending over as it is now, you need consistency and time. For a *game* this works well, realism aside. I'm not sure which specific mods you were looking at or liking, but all the diplo mods I've seen would appear to really unbalance the *game* and force you to play easy on the AIs in ways I'm not sure I agree with. let me know though.

1: Spies: we probably conceive of them differently from each other. If it were up to me and I could mod it in well, I'd have them in classical times too as a limited spy- after all, for example, treachery and spying is an ancient art... I don't think of her as merely a super Kate Archer type spy of modern times.

2: There really is limited room to move the Knight around. The techs there are few and the units many in that era. I'm playing through another game and will think about this as I play. I'll see if something better presents itself.

3: Heh. one of the original changes in this mod when it was for Civ 3. While it stunts some AI it doesn't others. In general there's a belt around the world of Jungle that becomes a sort of border, hinterland. I like this. I find the AI still very challenging as it hinders me too.

The inequality has never bothered me, as it sometimes stunts me and sometimes doesn't. The thing about this change is that it always bothered me that all the jungles were gone by about 1000AD no matter what. And while some civs thrived in jungles, none of them are world master civs today. None of them. Jungles stifle humanity on a technological development path... they are vicious places which grow faster than we can kill them until very late times. it isn't the physical problem of cutting trees, it's that you get diseases and die if you live in jungles in large numbers. Only small tribes truly live in jungles. The rest of humanity stays clear of them wishing they could eradicate them. Only now do we value them, but only people who live FAR from jungles value them, in truth.

Now having said that, you CAN harvest resources and such from them prior to being able to cut them down. Gunpowder allows this. You can also build roads through them fairly early as well. The wait for biology and cures/protection against diseases the creatures of jungles spread must wait.

Sorry but this is one of the basic changes to my mod that flavors the whole thing for me.

1: Grenadiers: I'll try out +25 vs. Musketmen/+10 city attack. However +10 cost to them. They wer cheaper than riflemen... so now the same price.

2: Internet: It was ther I think. I just think it's a worthless wonder unless it's early enough to matter.

3: The problem with keeping any bombard on those units is that the AI missuses them then- it spams bombards that hae no value and doesn't use the ships to hunt down the enemy, which is what it should be doing. It's an annoyance I wanted removed. This was as much a game balancer as a flavor change (to better reflect how these ships were used in history).


the flaws:
1 & 2: This is sad, but, you DID flood the world with more civs than recommended for the map size. This is destined happen. I don't see this as a problem, it's something that happens. The Eskimo, for example, doesn't live in a place where their society is destined to develop fission technology any time quick... prepare to be marginalized.

Haha... it's been this way for awhile in my mod, unless I was neglectful and didn't release the ones with this in it. Reducing the % for me is problematic because during a war the AI just spams bombard attacks and uses its ships wrongly in this era- they hover by enemy cities doing inneffectual attacks like this instead of hunting down other ships and transports.

3: The world builder does sometimes spit out a lot of 1 terrain. Your request for "better options" is, sorry but, a little too vague. I need specific problems to operate on under specific situations. That unbalanced starts can happen seems a part of the game to me that is fundamental and not worrisome.
Nice work on this mod. I agree with pretty much all the changes, and the Civ experience is richer for them. Of course, from a purely technical point of view I'm sorry that jungles stay around longer because they really slow my games down (but forests don't, go figure) ;)

The main point I wanted to make though was about civics. I like your thinking behind making them more distinct and interesting. There is now more strategy in choosing here, weighing pros and cons, which is to be applauded. The only problem I had was that each civic choice has so many effects, that from a gameplay point of view isn't very streamlined. I think it would work better with just one or two strong positives/negatives for each choice.
To be honest I think you could be even more radical with your civic re-jigging. I think many of the vanilla categories don't make much sense. Universal Sufferage, Emancipation, and Free Speech for instance all seem to be driving at the same concept - why 3 different civics? Why are Bureaucracy and Nationhood competing concepts? Everything seems a bit arbitrary as is.
You know... I agree with what you say about the concepts they chose being mutually exclusive ='s huh? when a lot of them operate together.

Well, I plan to play a few games through and see how they add up. Then maybe go in the direction you suggest, where there are larger but fewer effects with each choice. That's what I'll keep in mind as I play through games.

I gotta say it always surprises me a bit when people get annoyed by not being able to rid the planet of jungles earlier. I quite like the constant challenge and hindrence to growth that they provide throughout the game until you're handed technology to utterly eradicate them. I *really* enjoy it when a modern jungle war pops up which NEVER occured prior to being disallowed to remove them... reminds me of French colonisation efforts or the war in vietnam... they make for interesting strategies when you actually can't whizz your tanks around on the plains (newly cleared of jungles) and find yourself hindered in jungles that give advantages to cheaper infantry uinits with jungle upgrades... circa 1970... or you're marching Imperialistic Riflemen and Cavalry through the Jungles near Persia circa 1870 in an effort to conquer them in order to gain some trade good for your growing mainland cities burdened by unhappiness... and you face native elements without being able to use your superior cavalry maneuverability (no withdraw chance driving them into the jungle...) That's the fun parts for me.

In most cases this is what a player does... bye bye jungles... which, IMO should have more profoundly bad effects than it does in the game. I mean... they are a source of oxygen (a *non* greenhouse gas...) Meh, I dunno.
The beginning is boring but realistically, not much should be going on anyway. Things should take 4ever to buld, improvemnts should take longer to make so you should be waiting on workers early on IMO. It makes it dreadfully boring I agree but historically the speed & lack of action in the beggining is accurate.


? 1) Ah I see now, I havent been able to play a game this far yet because I couldnt stand having gunpowder in like 1400 like in vanilla civ. I havent researched Liberalism yet.

? 2) Really my only remaining compaint ( and main) with Civ4 being unrealistic, your mod took care of all my other issues with it. I mean, I can give a civ units, techs & even cities & no positive reaction whatsoever, but there pissed at me -4 because I traded with there worst enimies & they havent even been to war yet! ( altho the AI did get plus 2-4 pts, cant rememeber, when Cyrus gave the Mali ALOT of techs ). I guess its my style of play, I like helping along my fave struggling nations so I have allies later on if I need them or at least some1 to do tedious fighting for me ( ala the real world? hah ) so no1 sneaks up on me while Im taking care of the world powers, assuming Im up there that particular game. I searched the forum for a Realistic Diplomatic Result Mod & cant seem to find one, I swore I saw one just 2-3 weeks ago somewhere on here....Anyways I did find a request for a negative reaction mod that devalues slowly over time, which would be a great addition as well. One of the problems with Warlords ( from my gameplay exp. & a few others from what Ive read ) is that the new Vassaling features incite alot more wars & negative feelings between nations, which in reality is ok but that combined with the redicoulessness ( new word hah ) in negative reactions for arrogant demands, trading, having vassals etc for gameplay reasons is very unbalancing. & the fact that it very slowly doesnt go away seems way off. Not to mention the AI never makes arrogant demands to each other so theres another disadvantage for the player. Both of these would go a loooong way in making Civ alot more realistic & balanced IMO. Hope something can be done.


1) I see your point & must agree. I mean, treachery etc has been going on since sun tzus time. Also what Ive seen around is the inclusion of an assassin unit that steals tech etc ala Civ 2. I think a less powerful spy early on ( the original ) & maybe a stronger new unit/upgrade ( Operative? ) would be a welcome addition....Its amazing how well the AI picked up that I was dominating because of my Knights & Calvary & sabotaged my horses multiple times. Never would of seen that w/o spies earlier on.

2) I agree there also, there really isnt newhere else to put them. I agree with 2.1, horses definatly are underated in there importance in all Civ games & its good to get a better bonus for having them & maybe Knights earlier on justifies that too.

3) I must agree on the jungle also. I wasnt aware its still possible to get resources from the jungle tiles early on ( altho gunpowder seems really late to get some bananas etc lol ) not sure why the AI stuggles so bad in large jungle areas but it makes sense. & your rite having all the jungle tiles clear early on makes no sense whatsoever ala civ 2 ( i think ). I never started near a jungle so I didnt know its only limitation was not being able to clear it until way later on.....


1) Perfect

2) I see your point, historically way off but thas irrelavant to a world wonder so useful that its wasted being so late in the game to the point its near useless.

3) Was playin earlier & your right, the AI is rediculously misusing the Frigades. One Zulu ( never once at war ) city had 10-12 idle Frigates with nothing to do. Althought historically way off base its an AI problem & its necessary to fix it. Wonder if theyd still overproduce & misuse them if it was only a 5% city attack. Also agree with the upgrade changes.


1 ) 17 rival civs is to many for a 160 x 100 map? Is there a table or w/e for reccomendations? Tried playing on a 240 x w/e & the load times got annoying after awhile, not to mention the barbs for some reason got so strong 4 civs got wiped off the face of the world early on. Im happy with this size, theres still alot of undeveloped good land in 1841, & many uninhabited quality islands/lands ( some with only barbs ) & 17 other remaining Civs.

3 ) I searched & theres nothing really better. Nothing against SmartMap as I couldnt realise my style of Civ on the standard " huge " map but there always seems to be to much jungle & desert generated by it. & the 1 civ starting on 1 usuable tile surrounded by water on all sides & 1 peak isa very minor & prolly extremely rare problem but I did have no mountains blocking on & saw a few cases of land being blocked like that.

All in all I really enjoy Civ4 now with this MOD & hope I didnt sound unappreciative in my 1st post. Just trying 2 give good feedback but failed to mention most of the positive. Honestly the best Civ game Ive played ever & thats sayin alot cus I have been a huge fan since Original Civ. All that I really would need now to have the perfect game is a few more modern civs that the AI can play ( canada, mexico, sweden, italy, hopefully when these are translated for warlords, I can learn to merge them with this mod ) & a much better Diplomatic Result Mod to merge also & the game to me would be perfect. Thanks again for getting me 95% of the way there.
You were fine. I appreciate the thoughtfui input.

One thing you wrote got me thinking, and I I think I'll make it an earlier tech than Gunpowder that allows for harvesting resources in Jungle. Just haven't the time at the moment to pick the one... I think something along the lines a few techs after the one that enables slavery... as that seems like the right way to go- I mean that's basically how it's done before you can clear away the jungles- get the slaves (peons) to do it.

That will satisfy you, and I think makes sense...
Dearmad said:
I gotta say it always surprises me a bit when people get annoyed by not being able to rid the planet of jungles earlier..

Don't get me wrong, from a gameplay and concept principle I think this mod is right on the money where jungles are concerned. Unfortunately, performance-wise, my computer just can't take large areas of jungle, and framerates drop alarmingly.
Whaaaat? Seriously, I never thought of that. The game is a resource hog due to jungles!? Arg, that sucks.

Well, you're the first person I've heard of with a truly legit reason to want to rid your planets of jungles, I'll hand you that!

What sort of rig do you have and how much memory, what video card? I'm very curious. If Jungles slow you up, the end-game must be amazingly tedious at 2-3 fps.
I've got an Athalon 3000+ 2Ghz processor, and 1GB of ram, so it's a fairly new machine. I'm pretty sure it's my video card (Radeon 9250) which is the cause of the problems, as it's pretty old and I struggle with a lot of 3d games.

Actually the end game doesn't slow up for me much at all, even with more units/cities etc. In fact I even get a slight increase in performance as I've blitzed as much jungle as I can by this point. What's weird is it's only jungles that give me a real performance hit, not high-res textures, forests, map size etc. Just the ruttin' jungles. :mad:
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