(Mod Potential) Classical era Booster tech(s) or civic(s): Ironworking VS Caste System

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Yet another Mod Potential series thread. Studying Human History. there were one o two important advancements (the term used in Civ 1-2 and maybe 3) that contributed to mankind productivity compared to anything that came before. Ironworkings, and Caste System

What actually contributed more to increses in productivity in any given society than each other?
A. Ironworking: Iron tools that's cheaper, stronger, and lasts longer than those made of bones, stones, copper, and bronze. And some new tools and weaponry that cannot be made with anything elses were introduced with it. The uses of iron-based agricultural tools were one of some other factors contributing to increases in farming output (as i've read some Chinese History Books or articles regarding to successes in one or many dynasties, one such success contributed to iron farming tools eventually increased farming output and shortly later, population, but I can't remember when did this happen? or if it is associated to the earliest tappings of Natural Gas (the so called 'Fire wells') in Sichuan, China. Which Liu Bei described its usefulness (and later chose the Southwest portion of Old Han Empire as a site of Shu Kingdom). These NGs fueled not only salt productions, but also cast iron tools productions.
B. Social Strata/Caste System: (Pick a name). A civic (definitely) that relates to how a given society functions, actually a forerunner to 'Divisions of Labor'. Basically there were three or four castes: Clergymen, Warrior, Merchants, Labors. Castes system viewed by modern day's eyes are surely evil and oppressive, but before the first functional firearms came to exists--warfare evolved into more complex affairs, where old rustlings evolved into mean business. As first cities came to be so abilities (and needs) to produce more complex weaponry or military unit that's superior to olschool rustling warriors and pastoral horsemen. Chariots were a paragon of the Bronze Age warfare where it can only exists with AT LEAST a City State of some size, actually no tribal villages can make a company of mighty chariots or train drivers and fighting men but someone like ol' Zhou (or maybe Shang), Assyria, Hattustan /Hittites, Mycenia, Babylons, Sumerians, and Egypts can. Also Archers, Warriors (Axemen or Macemen), and Charioteers took YEARS. to train (Around the same time interval that one person is expected to stay in school, my standard is 15 years! with Preschool elementary (Began when a person is 3-years old or so, My mom was an Educational Supervisor overseeing Preschool section in one province) added to Grade 1/Primary Year 1/ Prathom Sueksa 1st) . Chariots and Weaponry were also made by dedicate craftsmen, Something seasonal farmers and seasonal craftsmen ain't gonna do it so easily. (I'm not sure if i'm right about reasons that supports social strata. @Boris Gudenuf might add more or correct this later on), Priests can communicate to god(s) better if they are not bounded by farming seasons. In Reality however, productions (and maybe farmings as well) were done by either those of the low social strata or captives (convicts or slaves captured either via raidings or conquests or purchased). Roman Mining productivities were operated entirely by slave labor and yielded out alot of ores mined.

But i'm not sure which one gives more productivity to society or civ

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Not going to vote (yet), but will comment:

A) I would submit that equal to Iron Working was Bronze metallurgy, coming along about 3000 years earlier (Arsenical Bronze at about 4000 BCE - yes, Bronze Working should be a Starting Tech in Civ!). What made Bronze so important was that it was the first metal exploited by humans that was hard enough to make a toothed saw out of, so that wood (the most common construction material) could be smoothly worked across the grain as well as along the grain, and this was HUGE. Among other things, it meant that planks could be sawn and shaped into solid wooden wheels, which by no coincidence show up at the same time that bronze tools show up EVERYWHERE - so Bronze Working is directly related to the Wheel and, quite some time later but still well before Iron Working, the ability to shape spoked wheels for fast-moving Chariots. Leaving aside things like being able to shape building stone far better and more quickly with bronze chisels, hammers and saws than with stones, leading directly to massive Monumental stone structures (look at the difference between the rough 'standing stones' of Pre-Bronze northern Europe and the Post-Bronze statuary from Egypt, for instance) Bronze's effect on warfare was enormous.

And it also affected Social Sructure: Bronze was expensive, based on relatively rare combinations of copper and tin, so the weapons and tools were reserved for a relatively small percentage of the population: the "Heroic Warriors" of Homer, the Artisan classes of specialists that formed separate Production communities in Egypt. The Bronze Age Empires and societies were none of them in any way Egalitarian: the Technology shoved them into a distinctly Aristocratic, even Feudal societal structure. The Social Stratigraphy became predominant as a direct result of Bronze: all the manifestations later are just Addition Excuses for what the scarcity of the original Elite Weapons/Tools started.

B) I would postulate, based on the more recent archeological studies of pre-historic cities and settlements, that the earliest 'Civic' that makes Cities possible at all is Heirarchy - the concept of taking orders from someone who is not the head of your own family. Without this, a collection of peoples, no matter how large, is simply a group of families not fighting each other at the moment, and organizing the total work force for any projects is simply impossible. it also means, as evidenced by places like Catal Hoyok, that as soon as there is any problem with the 'city' (drought in the case of Catal Hoyok) all the families simply pack up and move away - go back to semi-nomadic hunter-gathering because there is no authority, no loyalty beyond the family to keep them in the city.

Once you've accepted the idea that someone not related to you is In Charge, the way is paved for Kings and such, but to actually make real use of all the potential of the concept, you also need one other Civic: Chain of Command. This is the additional idea that someone between you and the Grand Panjundrum can also give you orders about certain things - subordinates and Sub-Kings also not related to you, but having authority over you. Without this, the King can only accomplish what he personally oversees and orders. With it, gangs and armies can be organized to conquer neighbors, irrigate dozens of square kilometers of farmland, and build the Grand Guignol's monumental Tomb - and if he gets too demanding, put him in it early: even Revolts have to be organized with a Heirarchy of people in charge.

Oh, and cast iron plows and tools show up in China during the early Han Dynasty - 200 - 100 BCE. Showing the absolute Interrelated Nature of Technology, they appeared then because the temperatures needed to melt iron and cast it - temperatures above 1300 degrees C - are also the temperatures needed to produce true Porcelain, and are reached by using Charcoal as a fuel AND having 'tower' kilns with forced air draft to raise the firing or smelting temperatures - advances in Ceramics/Pottery are directly related to the early advances in Metal Working from copper/tin (same temperatures as for firing Earthenware ceramics, below 1000 degrees C) to bronze and wrought iron (temperatures 1100 - 1200 degrees C, or the same as for Stoneware ceramics) to cast iron (temperatures same as for Porcelain)

But before you start tootling China's 'advanced metallurgy' note that the heavy wheeled mouldboard plows they were making out of cast iron had been independently invented by the Germans or Celts in northern Europe at about the same time - made of wrought iron rather than cast, so less prone to crack or shatter if struck: in both cases, the Need was for heavy plows to attack heavy clay soils that the lighter ard plows of theMiddle east or Mediterranean or Northern China couldn't make a dent in: similar Need = similar Invention.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

If Ironworking is a main contributor. Did it also affect productivity compared to Bronze tools? (Farms and mines) and if so how much in game terms?

 

[Phrozen]

Iron ore was much more common than the ores needed to make bronze. So tools could be distributed farther across the populace. Bronze didn't go away as it had properties that were still valued. It was reflective and shiny when polished and didn't corrode like iron so was used for jewelry, mirrors, statues, and other luxury goods. Another use of copper or bronze would be to make hoops for barrels as not corroding would be seen as a plus for travel or casking liquids such as wine making.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Iron ore was much more common than the ores needed to make bronze. So tools could be distributed farther across the populace. Bronze didn't go away as it had properties that were still valued. It was reflective and shiny when polished and didn't corrode like iron so was used for jewelry, mirrors, statues, and other luxury goods. Another use of copper or bronze would be to make hoops for barrels as not corroding would be seen as a plus for travel or casking liquids such as wine making.

We could do entire Threads on metallurgical technology In Game, because there are a lot of details about it that have been thoroughly Ignored by 4x gaming.

For instance, Bronze was preferred for cannon in 15th - 17th century Europe because the casting technology was better developed (they'd been casting church bells out of it for several centuries already) and cast iron guns had a distressing tendency to crack and blow up - at least two monarchs were killed by standing too close to one of their own cannon. On the other hand, as you say, bronze was much more expensive than iron, so if it had not been for the development of better iron casting techniques in England in the late 1500s, England would never have been able to afford a navy of 100 or more ships of the line in the next two centuries. Likewise, although bronze was still used for lighter field pieces right up into the 19th century (middle of Industrial Era) larger Fortress and Siege pieces were cast iron for cheapness: France, for example, had over 10,000 guns in fortresses and fortified cities by the beginning of the 18th century, a number that, cast in bronze, would have bankrupted the State!

Iron tools, because they could be produced in quantity, made a big difference in basic Productivity when they became available. One rarely-noticed aspect of the so-called 'Dark Ages' in Europe is that by 1000 CE almost every town and large village had a resident Blacksmith who could forge tools out of wrought iron and make simple weapons - spear points, arrow points, shield bosses. The technique of pattern welding sword and axe blades was also much more wide-spread than it had been in the Roman Empire, so that man for man, the 'Dark Age' worker, farmer or warrior was generally better equipped than his Roman counterpart.

The Chinese had developed very sophisticated casting technique for Bronze very early, and adapted them to Cast Iron when they achieved the higher kiln/furnace temperatures needed during the Han Dynasty. This had the side-effect that most Chinese iron-work was cast and not wrought iron, and although cast iron makes fine cannon barrels, smaller barrels needed for handguns are much more tricky and unreliable without modern temperature measuring, so the bulk of Chinese handguns, 'hand cannon' and such were bronze long after Europe had exclusively gone to wrought iron musket barrels and mechanisms. It also meant that Chinese civilian Productivity was very high from the 'Classical' Era on (Han Dynasty and afterwards) because of the wide-spread availability of relatively cheap cast iron plows, hammers, and other tools.

All of which indicates that modeling even a bit of the variations in metallurgical Technology in game should result in some very different Development Paths and results for different Civs in different in-game situations.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Should TECH_IRONWORKING increases farming output by +1 food and mining output by +1 production?