MOD PREVIEW: Karhgath's Earth

[Karhgath]

(NEW UPDATE)

This discussion moved to the new CTE's home at cdgroup, please redirect all posts there:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/index.php?h=1&pf=358

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I've started working on a high quality mode lately, that will balance, and add much more enjoyment in civ3, by adding the best features possible.

I will post a first version soon. Unlike most mods here, this mod is made to be played on the Earth's map, with realistic resources. This allows to add much more depth to the game.

Here's a preview of the changes yet, this is really not a complet listing, I've got a lot more to add, but I'm leaving for the weekend so I don't have much time left.

If you have any feedback, comments, suggestions, go ahead, especially for new UU units. I try to only add quality units to the mod, that are made mostly from scratch to be 'legal'. I took many ideas from other people on the boards and all, and I'll put a credit soon, I just don't have the time right now, sorry!


Summary:
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The mod is centered around the Earth map and tries to make it realistic and fun.
Added many units to fill gaps and add variety, especially in industrial and modern eras.
(Coming Soon)All new naval units and balance.
Increased firearm power.
(Coming Soon)Added tons of new govt.
Added defensive bombard to ranged units.
Rebalanced upgrade path.
Rebalanced air units.
Made mountains and jungle impassable by most units without a road.
Changed many terrain deatures and settlers stats to reduce AI expansion and growth.
Made units of newer eras a bit more powerful compared to older ones.
(Coming Soon)Added many new resources, and balanced them on the world map.
(Working on it)Each civs now get 2 unique units.


Additions:
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New Unique Units:

ROMANS: Imperial Legion -> Upgrade to Legionnary(one more def than Med. Infantry)
EGYPTIANS: Levis -> Egyptian Spearman, cost less
GREEKS: Greek Trireme -> Galley with bombard(catapult)
BABYLON: Unknown
GERMANS: Crusader -> Better knights, 4/2, cost less, no support. Why germany? They participated in all 3 crusades, and I didn't find a good civ to have Crusaders.
RUSSIAN: Spetsnaz -> Better paratrooper, +2 off.
CHINESE: Chin Spearman -> Better pikeman, +1 off, cheaper.
AMERICAN: M1A2 Tank -> Better modern armor, +4 offense. Also, Minuteman, better flintlock musketman, -1 def, cost less, no support.
JAPANESE: Imperial Marine -> Better marines, treat terrain as road.
FRENCH: Legion Etranger -> Better Guerilla, +1 off/def.
INDIAN: Elephant Cavalry -> Better Cavalry, no horse, can cross jungle.
PERSIAN: Cataphract -> Better Horseman, +1 def.
AZTECS: Eagle Warrior -> Better Warrior, 1/1/2. Jaguar Warrior -> Better Archer 2/1/2
ZULU: Unknown
IROQUOIS: Indian Rifleman -> Better Rifleman, cost less
ENGLISH: Red Coat -> Better Fusilier, +1 def
MONGOLS: Grenade Archer -> Better Longbowman, +1 off
SPANISH: Tercio -> Better Musketman, +1 def
VIKINGS: Longboat -> Better Galley, can cross sea, +1 move
OTTOMANS: Janissary -> ???
ARABS: Dhow -> Caravel, +1 trans, +1 move
CELTS: Celtic Warrior -> Better Archer, +1 off
CARTHAGINIANS: War Galley -> Better Galley, +1 off, +1 trans
KOREANS: A warship of some kind.


New Normal Units:

Matchlock Musketman -> Between Musketman(now Arquebusier), comes with Metallurgy, adds a bayonet to Muskets and uses matchlocks.
Flintlock Musketman -> After Matchlock, comes with Mil. Tradition, better tactics and rifles.
Dragoons -> Comes with Mil. Tradition, a fast mounted unit used to break musket formations. Cavalry is pushed back to next era.
Grunt -> Better Infantry.
Modern Infantry -> Better Grunt.
Special Forces -> Better Paratroops/Marines.
Mobile Infantry -> Early Mech Inf.
APC -> Between Mobile Infantry and Mech Inf.
(Coming soon)
Galleas -> Offensive ship paired with Caravel.
Ship of the Line -> Bigger and slower Frigate.
Iron Frigate -> Early Industrial Frigate.
Dreadnaught -> Early Battleship.
Cargo -> Early Transport.
Early Destroyer -> Normal destroyer moved to modern age and renamed to Modern Destroyer.
Early Cruiser -> A smaller battleship.
Early Battleship -> Normal battleship moved to modern age and renamed to Modern Cruiser.
Early Carrier -> Normal Carrier moved to modern age and renamed to Supercarrier.


Changes:
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Upgrade Paths:

Ground Offensive:
Warrior->Swordman->Medieval Infantry->Arquebusier
Archer->Longbowman->Arquebusier
Marines->Special Forces
Paratrooper->Special Forces

Ground Defensive:
Spearman->Pikeman->Arquebusier
Arquebusier->Matchlock Musketman->Flintlock Musketman->Rifleman->Infantry->Grunt->Modern Infantry

Ground Mobile Offensive:
Chariot->Horseman->Knight->Cavalry
Dragoon->Cavalry
Cavalry->Mobile Infantry
Early Tank->Armor->Modern Armor

Ground Mobile Defensive:
Mobile Infantry->Armor Personnel Carrier->Mechanized Infantry

Transport Ships:
Galley->Caravel->Galleon->Cargo->Transport
Carrier->Super Carrier

Offensive Ships:
Galleas->Privateer->Frigate->Iron Frigate
Ship of the Line->Iron Frigate
Iron Frigate->Ironclad->Modern Frigate
Dreadnaught->Battleship
Cruiser->Modern Cruiser
Destroyer->Modern Destroyer->AEGIS Destroyer
Submarine->Nuclear Submarine


Units Abilities/Flags:

Leaders, Scouts, Explorer and King Units get foot unit ability, and airlifting.
-- Just to make sense and adds some strategy in Regicide.
Artillery and Radar Artillery get airlifting.
-- Tanks got it, why not artillery?
All mounted or mechanized units get wheeled Ability, except for Keshik and Conquistador.
-- They cannot cross mountain and jungle, unless there is a road. Adds depth and strategy to the game.
All ground units up to Rifleman get wheeled ability, except for Worker, Scouts, Explorer, Archer and Longbowman.
-- 'Heavy' infantry are incapable of crossing mountains and jungles. Same as above.
Added load ability to cruise missile.
-- Made no sense.
Added tactical missile to Cruise Missile.
-- This makes it possible to load them into subs and ships.
All Fighters get lethal land bombardement and air bombard.
-- This is because they get close and personal when attack units.
All bombers get lethal sea bombardment.
-- More realistic now.
Keshik now has blitz ability and ignore movement cost on hills.
-- Makes them a bit more powerful and useful. It' sthe relentless horde afterall.
Elephant now ignore movement cost in jungles.
-- Allows them to move in jungle as they are often used.
Galley are now wheeled.
-- They can't cross ocean.

Units Bombard/ROF:

All 'ranged' units(bow and firearms) got a bombard of range 0 equal to the highest between Off and Def.
-- This allows 'defensive bombard' when attacked and increases the usefulness of ranged units.
Cannon/Hwach'a ROF to 2.
-- This is because of the increased HP of units between eras.
Artillery ROF to 3.
-- Same as above.
Radar Artillery ROF to 4.
-- Same as above.
Cruise Missile ROF to 5 and range to 4.
-- Represents increased HP of units and makes them more effective.
Fighter bombard increased to 4 and ROF to 2.
-- This makes them more useful.
Bomber bombard is now 12, ROF 4 and operational range is 8.
-- Accounts for the change in HP and makes them more effective.
Jet Fighter bombard to 6 and ROF to 2.
-- To make them a bit more powerful than normal fighters.
F-15 now has a higher operational range of 8, bombard of 8 and ROF of 2.
-- Much better now.
Stealth Fighter bombard to 8 and ROF to 3.
-- Because of increased HP.
Stealth Bomber bombard to 15 and ROF to 5.
-- Better against increased HP.


Units Stats:

Settler costs 40 and 4 pop.
-- Slows down expansion of every civs.
Worker cost to 10.
-- Slows down growth.
Chariots Off/Def upgraded to 2/1 and cost to 15.
-- This makes them much more useful.
Horseman Off/Def upgraded to 3/1 and cost to 20.
-- Same as above. Also this allows the Cataphract new unit.
War Chariot move to 3.
-- This makes them terrifying early on.
All ranged units got ZoC flag.
-- This adds depth and strategy and makes ranged units even more useful.
All Middle-Age units got +1 HP.
-- This makes them a bit more powerful against classical units.
All Industrial units got +2 HP.
-- Same as above.
All Modern units got +3 HP.
-- Same as above.
All mechanized units got +1 HP.
-- This reflects that they are armored.
Helicopter transport upped to 2.
-- Makes them more useful now.
Mounted Warrior changed to replace Knight instead of Horseman. Now 4/2 and costs only 5.
-- Better if you want to have mounted warriors against europeans.
Musketman now Arquebusier, 4/3, cost 4.
Musketeer changed to Off 5, def 3, cost 4.
-- Was pretty useless before that.
Consquistador Off to 4.
-- More useful now. Did the Spanish invade the new world with Conquistador or knights?
Sipahi cost increased to 110, off 10, def 4.
Cavalry cost increased to 100, off 8, def 4.
Cossacks cost increased to 100 off 8 def 6.
All three moved to Conscription.
- Makes upgrades between knights and cavalary more costy.
Tank cost increased to 130, off 14, def 6.
Mech. Inf cost increased to 160, off 18.
Modern Armor cost increased to 200.
-- Much more realistic, they should cost a lot more than infantry.
Mech. Inf move increased to 3 and moved to Robotics.
-- Makes place for APC.
Rifleman off increased to 6, moved to conscription.
-- More in line with changes to firearms.
Infantry off increased to 9, def down to 9.
-- More powerful and reflect overall changes to firearms.
Paratrooper off/def changed to 9/9, operational range to 8.
-- To reflect changes on Infantry, and better able to drop behind ennemy lines.
Marine off/def changed to 11/8.
-- Same as above.
Guerrila off to 7, def 7.
-- Same as above.
Modern Armor def to 14.
-- Makes infantry much more useful.
Radar Artillery move to 2, and requires oil now.
-- Well, they are mobile unit... move 1 didn't make any sense.


Rules Changes:

Road movement to 4.
Minimum Research Turn 6, max 60.
Golden Age duration 30 turns.
Forest Value in shield 15.
Town Size 5/City Size 10.
Cultural Border Factor to 12.
Defensive bonus changes to 20/60 for town/city.

Terrain Changes:

Desert/Tundra/Jungle: Cannot build city, cannot mine or irrigate, gives no bonus.
Flood Plain: 2 food, irrigation 2 food.
Hill: Gives no shield, can irrigate for 1 food.
Forest: Cannot build city.
Ocean: Cannot be crossed by wheeled units.
Desert movement cost to 2.
Tundra movement cot to 2.


Worker Jobs:

All jobs except Railroad and Clear pollution x1.5 turns.
Railroad build time increased to 24.


Combat:

Elite +1 HP.


Wonders and Buildings:

Cure for Cancer now gives 3 happy face.
-- Was useless before for such a powerful wonder.
Longevity comes with Sanitation.
-- Much more useful now.
Temples gives only +1 culture.
-- Slows down growth a bit early on.
Wall defense bonus to 60.


Difficulty Levels:

Chieftain Cost Factor to 16, Diety to 7.
AI Trade Rate to 101 for all difficulty levels.
Attack bonus against barbarian now 100/50/25/0/0
Corruption to 70/76/82/88/94/100.
Optimal City percentage to 100/100/95/90/85.


Civs:

England favorite govt to Monarchy.
Added Incas, Sioux and Khmers.


Diplomacy:

Plant spy cost to 40.
Initiate Propaganda to 70.
Expose Enemy Spy to 50.
Steal Plans is also Diplomacy now.


World Size:

Optimal Number of cities cut to 16(from 32).


Techs:

Chemistry Requires Education(makes matchlock comes a bit later)
Conscription: Comes after Nationalism, required for Industrialization. Allows drafting(moved from nationalism).
Astronomy enables comm. trading instead of writing.

That is all for now. All comments/feedback is appreciated. A first version will be posted in the next few days/weeks.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

For the Greeks, you could give them a trireme. +1 attack on a galley or something.

Persia could have a Cataphract (for Parthian period), a light horse archer (for Parthian period) or an earlier knight (for Sassanid Period)

Aztecs could have an Eagle Warrior (IIRC the Jaguar Warriors and the Eagle Warriors were two classes of Aztec warriors)

Mongols - Hun Raider??? The Huns were in eastern Europe, previously when they inhabited Mongolia they were the Hsiong-Nu. You could give them the Kabitka (a horse-drawn seige weapon), the Naptha Archer (fire archers), or the Grenade Archer (grenades on the ends of the arrow).

Ottomans - Cataphract? Cataphracts were pretty much ancient and classical period only. Most mods have them upgrade to knights. You could replace it with the Sipahi, light horsemen, Bronze cannons (Bronze cannons are better than Iron ones) or Janisseries (Christian slave soldiers)

You could also give the Koreans a warship of some sorts. They were very inventive and Kublai Khan (the Mongol dude) built all of his fleets in Korea.

 

[Mithadan]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you manage to make mountains and jungles impassable only to certain types of units? I only know how to make terrains impassable to all unit types, or impassable only to wheeled types. Did you make all units wheeled, and then disallow wheels on mountains and jungles? But then, that would allow your elephant unit to traverse mountains too.

I thought about doing this, but I like keeping catapults etc. out of hills and forests too (maybe I'm crazy), but that would be really crazy if most all units were wheeled. I'm curious to learn how you did what you say you did.

 

[Karhgath]

Mithadan: Yes, I'm using the Wheeled ability to prevent units from going thru mountains and jungles. The experiment was successful in The Ancient Mediterranean Mod (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/index.php?h=1&pf=21) and was tested extensively and is quite fun. One thing I haven't tested yet is if the 'ignore move cost' ability superseed the wheeled ability. What I mean is if a wheeled unit could be allowed to cross jungles(like elephants) with the ignore move in jungle ability. Anyone tested that yet?

I might even add the Wheeled ability to ancient ships to prevent them from going on the ocean. I think it was tested by someone else previously and it worked. Would help on the Earth's map I use.

Mongoloid Cow: You made me look bad... Hun Raider, doh, I worked too much on TAM and mixed up Huns and Mongols, haha. Thanks for reminding me. And yes, I did a screwup, Cataphract goes to Persia and not Ottoman.

Thanks for the suggestions.
I think there a nice unit anim for a asian ship for the korean.
Grenade archer for the mongol is nice, I think there is a Fire Archer unit that could be used for that.
Greek could get a trireme with a catapult, with a bombard. There's the Galleas with a catapult attack that could be used.
Aztec, yeah, nice, I didn't think about that... is there a unit that could be used for that?
Bronze cannon or Jannissary would be good for Ottoman, although I don't think there is a non Age of X unit for that. I'll see what I can do.


Now, I've been thinking about it and I will change firearms and infantry a lot more. Here's my reasoning:

Take 2 firearms infantry units one against another, in perfect environnement(flat, no one has advantage). Who wins? The 'best' one, the one with the most experience, and also a bit luck. However, if one is fortified in good terrain, they should win. So, this means that nearly all firearms infantry should have the same Offense and Defense, to allow the above.

Also, early musketman were the doom of knights, BUT, they didn't had bayonets yets, and were pretty vulnerable to a surprise charge, or a charge when not fortified and ready. However, if they took the Knights from a good distance, they had a good change of winning. This means that, since Knights are 4/3, Musketman should ALSO be 4/3, or even 5/3(the problems becomes now Musketman vs Musketman which should be about 50/50, as stated above), so that they can actually kill a Knight on offense, and get a good defensive bombard. However, if the knights rushes, they have a good chance of killing an unfortified Musketman. Ideally, you would put Musketman with a defensive of 2, since at that time, they needed pikeman as support units for rushes, but it doesn't really help gameplay, and that would make them as good as Medieval Infantry, so it's not a good idea, unless we make them 5/2...

So, here's the question:
Should Musketman either be: 5/2(support from pikeman), 5/3(knights killers), 4/3(much better for Musket vs Musket)? I'd vote for 4/3 myself.

Fusillier, with the addition of better firearms and bayonnet should be better at offense and defense, but are still somewhat vulnerable. 5/4 would be a good value I think... 5/5 would be better, but compared to Cavalry, they would be too powerful.

Also, how about adding a new mounted unit between Knights and Cavalry, at around Gunpowder?When firearms first appeared, Heavy Armor was rendered absolete, since Musketman can kill Knights, so Mounted swordsman lightly armored replaced Knights. They would be 4/2 or 4/1 and would cost a LOT less than Knights. I dunno how the AI would use it. Knights would not upgrade to it, but both would upgrade to Cavalry. What's a good name? I know there is a good name for it, but I forgot.

Also, I think there is a large gap between Cavalry and Tanks, we go from 6/3 at end of Middle Age to 14/6 near the end of Industrial Era. Anyone got an idea?

This will make the following lineup:
(Knight 4/3)
Musketman 4/3
Musketeers 5/3
(Something 4/1)
Fusilier 5/4
Red Coat 5/5
(Cavalry 6/3)
Rifleman 6/6
Infantry/Legion Etranger 9/9
(Tank 14/6)
Marines/Imperial Marine 11/8
Paratrooper 9/9
Spetsnaz 11/9
Grunt 13/13
(Armor 20/9)
Modern Infantry 18/18
(Modern Armor 26/14)

Tanks got an offense of about 1.5 x Defense of current infantry, and Defense at about the previous defensive unit Def. Relative values between Tank offense and Infantry defense didn't change much, BUT, infantry are much better at offense now. Maybe we'll see more infantry than tanks now, since they'll cost MUCH less than tanks now.

Also, Mech Units are now the same stats as the normal infantry, but cost more, get a move of 2 or 3 and get +1 HP.

Comments?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I am and remain sceptic to HP bonuses, but since you seem set to use them I won't argue that point here at any length. I'll just point out that the same effects can be achieved by simply boosting ADM on later units. One of my few complaints with TAM is that the variation in both ADM and HP makes it harder to compare units.

I assume the Flintlock Infantry figuring in the upgrade paths is the same as the Fusilier? Anyway, Musketmen shouldn't make Knights obsolete - heavily armoured cavalry was in use well into the 17th C. The stats 4/3/1 are probably quite good. What cost are we speaking of? 40s? They did chase traditional heavy infantry off the field quite early, and 40s would make them eclipse Medievals completely. Realistically, the Medievals should upgrade to Musketmen, but a free upgrade is perhaps too good - how would the AI handle it?

One idea for the "something 4/1" might be Pistoliers; medium-heavily armoured horsemen fighting with pistols à la (in-game!) Sipahi. Conquistadores might be an upgrade for this, btw. And when you add Finland, we both know where the Hakkapelites go!

The Babylonian extra UU could be an Assyrian Chariot at 2/2/1. I don't like the "Inquisitor" for the Spaniards. Dare I suggest a Reconquistador? A Terzio perhaps - a dense formation of musketmen, pikemen and halberdiers, much feared until it was crushed by superior mobility and firepower at Breitenfeld. The Aztecs are tricky. Would a two-move Archer do? I assume they wont be getting any Horses soon with historical start locations anyway.

 

[Angelscotboi]

Some UU suggestions...
Rome = Rather than Imperial Legion change it to Praetorian Guard.
Babylon = Bowmen - War Charioteers
Aztecs = The Jaguar Warrior was the Empires cannon fodder basic type soldier...the Eagle Warrior was a higher ranking soldier...maybe the same but higher attack?
Spain = Yeh I think Reconquistador is better.
Ottomans = Go with Janissarry.

 

[Karhgath]

For the HP bonus, I'm using them differently than in TAM. In TAM, it represented heavy armor, or mounted units. Since mounted units in TAM were less powerful, but had somewhat more HP, they were still pretty useful.

I agree that I could change the whole A/D of all units, but I won't. I don't want to change all the units balance... in TAM, it was a REAL pain to balance everything, and I don't want to do that again, and beside, in TAM, all units were similar, not real difference in tech as in Civ3. HP seems a good idea, but I dunno how it will handle. Sure, it adds complexity in comparing units, but not that much actually. Right now, I'm thinking of using HP as firepower maybe. All units up to musket would get no bonus, them all firearms units up to rifleman would get a slight boost, and then the rest would get another boost. That would represent evolution of the firearms a bit... My goal here is to experiment and come with a solution to a problem, maybe I'll realize HP isn't a good idea for that. In TAM it was the right choice, but probably not here, we'll see.

As for Flintlock and such... I'm going to add another unit there and complete the path:

Arquebusier 4/3(civ3 musketman)->Matchlock Musketman 4/4[Metallurgy](Dark Sheer Musket Infantry)->Flintlock Musketman 5/5[Mil. Tradition](Smoking Mirror Napoleonic Rifleman)->Rifleman[Conscription, see below] 6/6

You can argue that flintlock wasn't that big of an advancement, but it was more the tactics used by those units that changed the battlefield.

I'm going to move Cavalry to Conscription(a new tech requiring Nationalism) and upgrade it to 7/4/3, and add Dragoons with Mil. Tradition, a fast moving 5/2/3 unit with blitz, used against musketman.

Instead of Invention requiring Education, Chemistry will require Education instead.



Now for UUs... I hate mioxing Babylon and Assyria, it should be Assyria and not Babylon as a Civ, but I won't change it =) Still, adding a chariot isn't that good of an idea, with the Conquest Exp, another civ will also get a Chariot UU so... I'll see.

I myself don't like the Inquisiter either, but there is already a unit for that made, and I don't think there is one for a Terzio or Reconquistador... BTW, never heard of 'reconquistador', any links to enlight me? I'll ask if someone can make one if it's right.

The Aztecs are pretty tricky. Eagle Warriors were the 'day' warriors, and Jaguar Warriors the 'night' warriors. They were used about the same. But, I think I'll make the Eagle a 1/1/2 warrior(replace the current jaguar) and the Jaguar a 2/1/2 archer.

As for Rome.. with exp. with TAM and also gameplay-wise, what would a Praetorian Guard do? I mean, they defended Rome, that's it. They were just the elite of the legionnary, so not that much different. It doesn't make a very good unit IMHO. It makes more sense to upgrade the legion(they had 4 stages I think, pre-republic, republic, early empire, late empire).

And for the Ottoman, I need a good unit for a janissary... I'll ask for someone to make one I think.

 

[Nahuixtelotzin]

Kargath, just one thing: Please leave ou the inquiditor, the conquistador is bad enough.

Perseonally I use the "English Pikeman" from the cossack conversions to simulate the Tercio. Not perfect, but OK.

 

[Angelscotboi]

Actually all middle eastern Civs - Egypt, Pheonicia, Babylon, Sumer, Akkadia, Assyria etc all used Chariot type troops...

 

[The Last Conformist]

Damn, I wrote a lengthy reply, and my browser crashed ... here we go again:

The "Reconquistador" was a joke - it would refer to a soldier participitating in La Reconquista, the conquest of Muslim Hispania by the northern, Christian kingdoms, but to my knowledge the word isn't used in Spanish. Still, perhaps one of the Knightly Orders that took part in La Reconquista might be made into a UU.

Here's a piece I found on the Tercio (I misspelt it above - "Terzio" appears to be a German variant):

During the war armies fought in massive, slow moving formations called Tercios. The Tercio consisted of a large oblong formation of pike men with smaller formations of musketeers at the corners. During battle the Tercios would trudge together and battle it out "at push of pike" until one side broke. King Gustav of Sweden changed everything, however, by introducing revolutionary tactics that relied on smaller formations and emphasized movement and firepower instead of brute strength. The genius of his innovations was demonstrated in 1631 at the battle of Breitenfeld when his Swedish army handily defeated Tilly's larger old style Imperial army.

This sounds pretty harsh, but we should remember that Tilly and his Tercios were regarded as almost invincible before Breitenfeld.

The only other idea for an Mesopotamian UU I can think of is some sort of Horseman replacement, the Assyrians being cavalry pioneers.

 

[Mithadan]

I asked this elsewhere, but didn't get an answer -- hope this isn't too much of a thread-jack to get an answer this time:

Did countries other than Spain use the "tercio"? If so, did they still call it a tercio or did they use another, non-Spanish name for it? I'm trying to figure out if a tercio should be a UU for Spain...

Edit: Boy, am I stupid. I guess "Terzio" might be evidence that Germanic armies used the formation, no?

The Assyrians sort of invented boots (!), which greatly increased their deployable range (unparallelled in subsequent history until the Bismarkian Prussians, apparently). I don't know how to simulate that in game, but you could have a tech called "the Boot" and then give the Assyrians some kick-butt foot soldier with a cool Assyrian name. If my Osprey book on the Assyrians wasn't an ocean away, I'd find that cool two-word phrase that starts with an "h" that denoted some sort of elite unit and suggest that as the name for the UU. I don't suppose anybody else has that book and could find the name?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Well, Tilly's Tercios at Breitenfeld were mostly made up of Germans and Walloons. But the Imperials were, of course, closely allied to their Habsburg cousins in Spain. I don't how widespread their use were among other powers - the Scandinavians appear never to have used them, at least - but they were perceived as a Spanish concept. In Swedish Tercio warfare was known as spanska stilen "the Spanish style".

(Edit: spelling)

 

[Karhgath]

Tercio would probably replace musketman and get a +1 defense due to presence of the pikeman. I'll try to find a good unit graphic for it.

Assyrian probably invented 80% of the advancement in the ancient era, that's why I still don't know why Firaxis never added them to the game... now, in Conquest, they added Sumerian... what a joke! Babylon was already bad enough(a single city, there was never a real Babylonian Empire), but Sumeria... oh well =) Just had to vent a bit, heh.


Now I'm thinking about the resources. I'll add coffee, tabacco, cotton, timber. Any other ideas? I'm sure there's plenty. I'm trying to add more 'localized' resources. I think I'm going to change gold to a rapidly depleting luxury.


As for governments, I'm thinking of also allowing both economic models, and forms of governments. I have the following ideas:
Tribal Council
Imperialism
City States
Ancient Republic
Constitutional Monarchy
Federalism(is there a better name?)
Facism
Colonialism
Totalitarism
Social Democracy
Socialism
Virtual(pure) Democracy
Democratic Republic
Mercantilism
Capitalism/Corporatism
Feudalism
Ancient Democracy
Military Dictatorship
...

I won't add them all, maybe about 8-12 govt, 2-3 per eras. I want them balanced, and that 'ancient' govt. can still be useful in modern times, I don't want to have 'obsolete' govt.

Many govts will have specific small wonders or buildings to reduce corruption. For example, Republic would have a senate, some would have capitol, or regional offices, or colonial houses, or something. Some just get one, other gets more than one.

What do you think?

 

[Karhgath]

I'm also adding Minuteman as an American UU. Since they only get 2 late modern units... it's kinda useless. I mean, how can they survive until then without any UU?

The minuteman is a Flintlock Musketman that has a bit less defense(no bayonnet, they used hunting rifles mostly, and no training), but they cost less, doesn't need any resources and requires no support. What do you think?

 

[Nahuixtelotzin]

Originally posted by Mithadan
I asked this elsewhere, but didn't get an answer -- hope this isn't too much of a thread-jack to get an answer this time:
Did countries other than Spain use the "tercio"? If so, did they still call it a tercio or did they use another, non-Spanish name for it? I'm trying to figure out if a tercio should be a UU for Spain...
Edit: Boy, am I stupid. I guess "Terzio" might be evidence that Germanic armies used the formation, no?

The Tercios are a specific Spanish unit. Here's my Cvilopedia text for them, which is historically pretty accurate:

The Spanish Tercios were a type of soldier that emerged from the long Reconquista-wars against the Spanish Moors and the military reforms of king Ferdinand. It was Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba who finally gave name to the Tercio-system during the Italian wars.They were battle-experienced soldiers who dominated on the European battlefield in the 16th century.
Their weapons were simply those of the time in Europe, firearms, pikes and artillery. The special advantage of the tercios was the way those three kinds of troops were combined in one fighting systemwhich made them almost invincible on European battlefields until 1643.

Of course, considering the success of the Tercios, others have tried to copy the system and maybe even took the name, but it's specifically Spanish.

 

[Nder]

Which Earth map are you using?

 

[Karhgath]

I'm not sure yet about the earth map... I will not use a huge map for sure, probably something around 140-180 max, but enough to fit every civs on, with at least 3-4 cities each early on.

I think I'm going to use Kal-El's earth map, probably modified a bit, but I'm not sure. I first need to ask him, and second I still need to evaluate some maps(El Mencey's map might be a good alternative too). Anyone has specific preference? What I dislike with Kal-El's maps is the inacurate oceans, but it's the lesser evil between inacurate continents and oceans, so I might still go with that. Either way, it will be modified to fit the mod, especially in terms of resources.

If you have some preferences, go ahead.

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin
Of course, considering the success of the Tercios, others have tried to copy the system and maybe even took the name, but it's specifically Spanish.

Thanks for the info! This certainly clears things up for me, and I do believe I'll use your civilopedia entry, if that's alright.

I also never did understand why Civ I, Civ II and Civ III lacked an Assyrian civilisation. Darn, I wish I had that sweet book, because there was a cool Assyrian name for one of their elite sorts of soldier.

But sure Babylon had an empire! Looks like it went all the way to Carchemish and Tadmore in the north-west, and past Nineveh in the north. Nebuchadnezzar and everything, the writing on the wall, ...that was right before the Medes and the Persians came in and cleaned house...

Maybe it's just cuz ol' Sid figgered Babylonian/Chaldean civilisation was more significant and lasting than, say, the relatively brief Assyrian military domination...?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Karhgath
Assyrian probably invented 80% of the advancement in the ancient era, that's why I still don't know why Firaxis never added them to the game... now, in Conquest, they added Sumerian... what a joke! Babylon was already bad enough(a single city, there was never a real Babylonian Empire), but Sumeria... oh well =) Just had to vent a bit, heh.

That's a bit hard on Nebuchadnezzar's Neo-Babylonian Empire, isn't it? It included all of modern Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Israel/Palestine. Hammurabi's kingdom, a millennium earlier, wasn't small either - essentially the entirety of Mesopotamia.

In the Sumerians' defense, I want to say that they were the first (known) people to achieve a civilization with writing and substantial urbanization. And, if added to Civ, offers the hope of an onager-drawn chariot UU! Presumably implemented as a Chariot that don't require Horses.

But my favoured solution for this entire debacle would, for a normal civ game (obviously not for scenarios), be lumping Babylonians, Assyrians and Sumerians together as a single Mesopotamian civilization.

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Seeing that Communism is lacking on your governments list, but Fascism figures, are we to assume that Totalitarism is meant to include the former? Or is it included in Socialism. In either case, I don't think that Totalitarism, given that I'm right in assuming that it's a word variant of "totalitarianism", is a good name for a gov't - it properly refers to a feature of certain governments, which need not be terribly similar in other respects.

What is Colonialism supposed to represent?

I assume that "Imperialism" is supposed to describe something like the Roman Empire, but I think the meaning "territorial expansionism" is to well in-grained for this to work.

You could have a theocratic gov't. Preferably less insane than Civ2's Fundamentalism, tho!

Perhaps some sort of "Absolute Monarchy", à la Early Modern Europe?

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There was, a while ago, a thread in GD about ideas for new Modern Era resources. Unfortunately the search is down again, but if you can find it, it may prove interesting.

Off the top of my head, I can recall an ungodly number of different metals, as well as "Touristic Locale", a luxury coming available with Motorized Transportation.

 

[Nder]

Either of Kal-el's 140x140 or 180x180 maps would be good. You can get versions that have no resources on them so you can start from scratch.

I agree I would rather have accurate land masses than accurate oceans.