Modders are dreamers - so never stop dreaming !

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I recently checked my old project "Path to the Throne" again.
The link is to the intro video (created by @orlanth ) only.

There is no download of the mod itself because it was never finished and I abandoned it.
Over the years however I was still regularly reading my old design concepts and all the background lore in my old forum again ...

Spoiler :

PTTT is a project I had started many years ago but then abandoned because of copy-right discussions but yes mostly because of missing time and motivation.
It never passed prototype stage so do not worry - you did not miss anything - all really good protoypes developed in PTTT were integrated in RaR / WTP.

I once even started to write a Sci-Fi book based on it but after 1 chapter (20 pages) ... well ... I gave up again as well because I had too little time and motivation.

The good thing however is that this also had lead to further features for RaR and WTP as well - so it was not all in vain.

In fact many of the features seen today in WTP are the result of technical concepts or prototype implementation for PTTT that were then integrated and polished in RaR / WTP.
(Expanding City-Radius, 3 Different Types of Roads (originally the Train feature), Wild Animals, Health, ... and recently even Happiness.)

So why do I write this to you?

So yes, I failed with PTTT.
Do I thus regret having invested time and effort into PTTT even though it failed?
No, seriously I absolutely do not.

Even if you never fully finish such big dreams, I still believe they are important and have value.
It is better to dream and fail than to never have dreamed at all.

And my other dream project RaR (today WTP) did not fail - it actually became bigger and better than I had even dreamed.
In the beginning it sounded impossible as well but then we just tried and started it anyways, found more team members and together we succeeded.

Dreams create desire and desire creates motivation and perseverance.
At least a few positive results - even if it is just inspirations and ideas - will come out of it.

Maybe you will also fully succeed and achieve something really big and great.
And then later you will look back at your achievements with pride and joy.

Summary:

Do not be afraid to fail or you may never figure out if you might have been successful.
And even if you fail, it will still be an enriching experience.

So go ahead, start dreaming your own big dreams.
It is what lets players become great modders.

Civ4Col modding community is waiting for your dreams to become true!
Why not use WTP as a base to build it?

 

[raystuttgart]

With all the recent hype considering the new Dune movie I have also recently watched the old Dune TV-Series again.
(Dune Messiah Trilogy and Children of Dune Trilogy)

I could not resist thinking about how a Dune modmod of WTP would look like and feel.
(I really love Dune and had also used it as inspiration for PTTT.)

Changes to WTP concepts:

- Colonial Nations being replaced by Great Houses (Atreides, Harkonnen, Corinno, Ordos, Richese, Fenring ...)
- All Kings being replaced by one single Emperor (technically maybe still divided)
- Spice Gatherers using "Whaling Gathering System" but very slow
- Carry Alls being special huge ships able to pick up Spice Gatherers and other Units from Plots
- Europe Ports being Replaced by Caladan, Giedi Prime, Kaitain, Sigma Draconis, ...
- Fremen Sieges replacing Native Villages (Different Fremen Tribes replacing Native Tribes)
- Epic Showdown (Battle for Emperor Throne) replacing WOI
- Sand replacing Water
- Europe Plots being replaced by "Space Travel Plots"
- Wild Animals in Sand being Sandworms
- Wild Animals on Land being replaced by own "Barbarian Civs" e.g. Raiders and Smugglers
- Additional "Neutral Parties" (like Bene Gesserit, Space Guild, CHOAM, ...) replacing ArchBishops
- "Neutral Parties" having own Planets you can travel to replacing Africa and Port Royal
...

Fully integrating (missing) Civ4BTS concepts:

- Air Units and Air Combat being added
- Techs (and Tech Trade) being added
- Civics being added
- Religions being added
- Wonders being added
- Great Persons being added
- Trade Routes being added
- Espionage and Sabotage being added
...

Completely new concepts:

- Vendettas (basically pre-set conflict story lines between Players with sub-goals, rewards and events)
- A much deeper and fleshed out Diplomacy System with additional features (Marriages, Secret Plots, Black Mailing ...)
- Natural Wonders (like Terrain Features) being added
- Hero Units being added (total new concept I had been messing around as a prototype)
- Landsraad (basically a new feature - similar to a UN council)
- Terraforming (heavily angering Native Tribes)
...

-------

Well, it is just a dream but just imagine how a Dune modmod of WTP could feel.
(I still love our game mechanics and almost all could be reused and modified to match.)

Of course it would be much easier if some of that stuff was implemented in WTP core mod first.
(e.g. Techs, Civics and Religions)

I have and still believe that a Dune Total Conversion of Civ4Col (buy using WTP) could become incredible.
(Simply because of the cool mechanics CivCol offers that Civ4BTS does not have.)

 

[<Nexus>]

Simply because of the cool mechanics CivCol offers that Civ4BTS does not have.

Is it possible to have everything that BtS has added to Collect? Surely this was asked and answered many times but... "Dreamer's thread"

 

[raystuttgart]

Is it possible to have everything that BtS has added to Collect?

Simple answer:

Yes, we can basically add every feature that Civ4BTS has to Civ4Col.
(Ideally to WTP or a modmod of it, because no other Civ4Col mod is as complete.)

In fact some stuff is much easier to port from Civ4BTS to Civ4Col than the other direction.
(e.g. Drag&Drop stuff and other things from Civ4Col would be really difficult to port to Civ4BTS.)

And we were actually planning to do so - or in some cases create a complete new implementation of our own.
(e.g. Techs, Civis and Religions)

Also Civ4Col graphical engine is a bit better than the one of Civ4BTS.

The only real problem we have is "manpower" - meaning enough modders interested to invest effort.

 

[Nightinggale]

Is it possible to have everything that BtS has added to Collect? Surely this was asked and answered many times but... "Dreamer's thread"

There are a few details, which the BTS exe offers, but the colo exe lacks. However from the cases I have seen so far, it looks more like "needs extra DLL work" than impossible. I'm not aware of any technical reasons why anything related to a Dune mod would fail.

Of course it would be much easier if some of that stuff was implemented in WTP core mod first.
(e.g. Techs, Civics and Religions)

I added CivEffects. While it's still short on tags (adding tags is a never ending task), it does provide the technical foundation for what you are asking for. Medieval Conquest has a tech tree. In fact there are two (one in develop and a different one in release). We should make a third one, but let's just say that I have a pretty good idea on how to make a tech tree from the DLL/python side of things.

If we are to make more mods, then instead of forking the source code, we should let multiple mods use the same. We will waste way too much time moving optimization and stuff between DLL files. That doesn't mean we will end up with reskins of the same mod. Take for instance big rivers. If a Dune map doesn't need rivers, the map script will then skip making them. Ok, so the DLL makes them automatically, but that can be fixed by adding a bool to CvMap, which then allows the map script to turn the feature on/off as needed. This might actually be a good idea to add in general even if we won't use it right away.

I have plenty of ideas on how we can use the same DLL/python code for multiple mods and then set up differences in xml without making the mods feel like reskins. It's a realistic goal. Ok, it's likely that we won't be able to use "the same" DLL file, but instead two compiled from the same source code. Remember that I added the ability to compile a DLL file with XML data in it. We can expand on that as needed. We also have Makefile.project, which can be used to set different compile flags depending on which mod the DLL is for. We can also make some functions, which are for WTP only and then the modmod provides another cpp file with different versions of the same fuction (say full of hardcoded yields stuff). We have plenty of options for uniqueness without moving into developing multiple DLL files.

 

[raystuttgart]

If a Dune map doesn't need rivers, the map script will then skip making them.

Or we could simply start getting creative and reinterpret it for something that matches the theme.
Ocean would need to become Desert as well and so on ...

 

[Nightinggale]

Ocean would need to become Desert

Speaking of "ocean deserts", I think I found the location, which makes waves on water. Somewhere in xml it seems there is a file, which sets wave animation on domain 0, which is DOMAIN_SEA. We can either edit xml (if we can figure it out), add DOMAIN_SAND and just not use the first one and go with waves on the sand if they look ok.

 

[raystuttgart]

Woah, we are already making design concepts for a Dune modmod of WTP.

At the moment I would be happy if we would first get more of the planned concepts and features into WTP core mod.
(e.g. Techs, Civics and Religions)

That would also make a potential Dune modmod of WTP much easier.
Once we have a modder or a team really starting a Dune modmod we can of course talk about concepts in detail.

 

[raystuttgart]

@orlanth:
Since you are around again I just wanted to ask:

Do you still play Civ4Col sometimes?
Do you not miss modding Civ4Col sometimes?
Do you still dream about all the great gameplay you could create?

----

I had also given up hope to ever finish my dream mod and thus had abandoned RaR and even left the scene.
But then for some reason I can not even explain I decided to come back again, join WTP and give modding a new chance.

And see, we have made great progess and we are having fun.
Is there no chance that you might also give it a try again?
Just a little maybe to see how it feels ...

 

[orlanth]

Thanks Ray, hope you are well & glad you're enjoying modding!

I've thought about modding sometimes and intermittently continued to plan out balancing and design issues for a potential future new version of 2071; if interested you can look at the tabs of the design document in the link in my signature (though I realize some of those notes to myself may be fully understandable only by me lol)

The overall idea is to focus on technological and societal progress over time, with a variety of Yields carefully balanced across several different planet types (Arid, Volcanic, Aquatic, etc), with Yields serving as inputs for research in several areas, making them have unique strategic values aside from all just being sold. Similar to the Dune mod idea mentioned earlier in this thread, planets can contain special Domains (a "sea" of Dunes for Arid planets like on Arrakis, a sea of Magma for Volcanic planets, etc) initially inaccessible to humans. As a Colonial player you'll be challenged to gradually unlock access to these unexplored interiors and push back the Alien Empires, while as an Alien player you can make use of initial tactical advantage in your native terrains to fight back against the occupiers while you work to overcome initial technological disadvantages.

I did eventually finish coding most of the new XML for the most important core game content (Yields, Buildings, Techs, Units, Professions, Terrains, Features, Techs) to be compatible with the M:C mod; it would be a big process to start all that over, and I'm afraid much of it would not be compatible with a mod like WtP at all (it took quite a while just to get the original 2071 working, due to the amount of hardcoding of vanilla content such as rules regarding natives etc). At any rate I'll be pretty busy with some technical documents for work through most of this year; but who knows maybe I will reattempt it at some point in the future.

 

[Nightinggale]

but who knows maybe I will reattempt it at some point in the future.

You will be most welcome whenever you end up having time to mod. As WTP evolves, it will become more and more friendly towards letting other mods use the DLL file as moving decisions from DLL to xml is an intended design goal.